EPTnot to disparage your build, it sounds solid, but the replay in the OP was essentially just you beating a relatively less skilled Zerg.
[G] - remaking the sentry expand (PvZ) - Page 5
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
not to disparage your build, it sounds solid, but the replay in the OP was essentially just you beating a relatively less skilled Zerg. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
Updated with a roach/ling attack, still haven't faced a competent player unfortunately. Someone from TL PM me and we'll run it a few times. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On May 23 2011 10:59 Keilah wrote: Well, I just watched the VOD posted and I have a few things to say. -First off, mini opens with zealot -> stalker, which is fine but will screw with timings and such compared to zealot -> sentry. So my very next point might be only because of this opening. -Mini lays down the expansion nexus at 6:05, 15s later than I recommend. -Mini gets pressured by lings at 6:20, and he holds with 1 sentry, 1 near-dead stalker, and 3 warpin reinforcement sentries, losing the stalker and 2 sentries. Surely the same pressure with 8 extra lings (which mini killed earlier) could be held by 1 zlot and 5-6 sentries. -Mini loses loads of stuff in the battle. The first cannon is canceled or killed, he loses (or should lose) a bunch of probes at 8:10 ingame time (can't tell with low res but i think the lings milled about aimlessly), he loses 2 pylons, the forge, a good few military units, and a few times there were opportunities for lings to kill several probes (not sure if it happened or not from low-res). He also ends up building 4 cannons (3 and 1 cancelled?), two of which are placed farther back than ideal, and the last one gets killed. And this is from a pro gamer! With my build, you can have worse micro and lose less. -there is LOADS of idle gateway time. In particular, all 3 gates sit idle for ~10 waiting for warp to complete. There's also a lot of idle time right around when the attack hits (watch the warpgate counter in lower right). What's the point of a third gate you can't afford? It sacrifices a faster forge for nothing. was my all means not perfect execution for sure, but it just goes to show you how easy this is to stop without cutting corners IMAGINE, if I had not lost those sentries, and it wasn't the shortest possible rush distance, and I had put the cannon a bit more in the back it would have been easy as cake to hold | ||
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J.E.G.
United States389 Posts
I'll go back to 3gate expand if i turn gosu over night  | ||
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SC2TheDroid
United States54 Posts
On May 23 2011 09:53 setmeal wrote: How about this one? GreatFields by Minigun Minigun ForceFields Against Roach/Linghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAEYzFxvAV0 Just... Wow...... Protoss is not op... Minigun is op... The first time the zerg showed up with roach ling = I woulda been screwed.. I can't believe how good that forcefield placement was man... That was incredible. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 24 2011 02:07 Minigun wrote: IMAGINE, if I had not lost those sentries, and it wasn't the shortest possible rush distance, and I had put the cannon a bit more in the back Well, you lost the sentries in exchange for killing lings. Anyways, like I say, whatever works for you. No matter what though, I'm 95% confident the third gate should be built later than the nexus, you can go gate, gate, nexus, forge, gateway, cannon, cannon and the first cannon and the gateway will be up in time for the attack, the second cannon will be a bit delayed but if that's fine then all's well. In fact this might be really nice - you can skip hallucinate or get it late, and cancel that second cannon at 39/40 if you don't see roaches by 8:10 or whatever. By making this small change you still have one cannon COMPLETED at the time of the attack and get the third gate pretty quick. If you research hallucinate, 2gates keeps up with gas income, if not, throw a single chrono on the initial gateway and you've kept up with your gas. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
1) even with 2 cannons, you still need a good walloff. FFing roaches AND lings away from your cannon without a walloff wastes loads of FF. First time through, I had no wall and DIED. 2) Don't skimp on sentries even though you have 2 cannons. On metal cross positions I spent 200 energy on hallucinates to check both paths, that obv cuts into your FF energy. I don't really like sentries so much (500ms latency makes it hard to FF well), so I tried to cut at 6. Ran out of FF near the end of the attack, still held it with the good wall no prob though. 3) Assuming you have a zealot, don't leave it with your sentries and stalkers, he's useless behind the wall. Put him in the natural probe line, 9/10 the lings are going to run around the wall and be over there during the battle. 4) If you can avoid putting pylons in the walloff, do it. If it's necessary, try to place it as near the cannon as possible to make it harder to snipe. No reason I can see for it to be adjacent to the ramp. If people want, I can post that replay, but the first game was me vs some noob terran. The second and third are the interesting ones. Unfortunately because of the nature of the game, the ingame clock is incorrect. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 24 2011 09:06 Keilah wrote: Well, you lost the sentries in exchange for killing lings. Anyways, like I say, whatever works for you. No matter what though, I'm 95% confident the third gate should be built later than the nexus, you can go gate, gate, nexus, forge, gateway, cannon, cannon and the first cannon and the gateway will be up in time for the attack, the second cannon will be a bit delayed but if that's fine then all's well. In fact this might be really nice - you can skip hallucinate or get it late, and cancel that second cannon at 39/40 if you don't see roaches by 8:10 or whatever. By making this small change you still have one cannon COMPLETED at the time of the attack and get the third gate pretty quick. If you research hallucinate, 2gates keeps up with gas income, if not, throw a single chrono on the initial gateway and you've kept up with your gas. I think Minigun didn't mind losing a couple of sentries because he knew the zerg possibly could've not have that many drones (game sense, lots of zerg unit --> few drones) while Minigun almost constantly produced probes (decision-making, cutting probes to get out some units+buildings for defense and sim-city) and had a great economy in comparison to the zerg. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On May 24 2011 13:31 iamke55 wrote: With only 2 gates, your opponent can deny your expo for a very long time with just speedlings and drone behind his pressure. You are also completely screwed against any kind of expo-cancel, 1 base all-in without the 3rd gate. Even if your build might have better odds against the roach/speedling attack recently popularized by losira, you're just playing the metagame and relying on your opponent not massing speedlings early game. I think this build is somewhat map-dependant. Mainly it depends on how far the natural nexus is from the ramp because it has a good sentry count. If you die to speedlings even though you're camping close to the bottom of the ramp with a small simcity set-up, you probably didn't FF properly. For example on xel'naga I would go 3 gates into expo simply because of how open and far from the ramp it is, in addition to getting a blind cannon. On LT though it's fine because you can poke out and defend the nexus without leaving the safety of the ramp. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 24 2011 13:31 iamke55 wrote: With only 2 gates, your opponent can deny your expo for a very long time with just speedlings and drone behind his pressure. You are also completely screwed against any kind of expo-cancel, 1 base all-in without the 3rd gate. Even if your build might have better odds against the roach/speedling attack recently popularized by losira, you're just playing the metagame and relying on your opponent not massing speedlings early game. If you do get attacked by speedlings, do you start warping in zlots or stalkers, or is it still pure sentry? Also I did go over 2 options for dealing with earlier roach-ling allins: 1)cancel your nexus and retreat up the ramp, you are both equally slowed down 2)go forge before nexus and build a single cannon earlier, cutting economy in exchange for safety vs crazy variants Can 3 gates with zero cannons hold the expansion vs expo cancel? | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On May 24 2011 13:31 iamke55 wrote:relying on your opponent not massing speedlings early game. who even does that? The last time I saw that was dimaga vs whitera in some match months ago and dimaga lost hilariously to just a standard zealot sentry defense. That's just a stupid cheese, sacrificing A METRIC FUCKTON of economy on the offchance that the Protoss is stupid enough to let the lings do damage. Zerg doesn't work like "i'm gonna pressure a little bit off 18 drones and then drone-whore", at that drone count you either commit to an attack and win or you lose. Spamming speedlings without scouting what the P does might be a soft counter to this strategy but it's so bad, rarely done and dies to so many other strategies (namely all the other standard ones) that you can safely ignore it contemplating this build. On May 24 2011 13:31 iamke55 wrote: You are also completely screwed against any kind of expo-cancel, 1 base all-in without the 3rd gate. Just cancel the Nexus, I'm sorry to say but I just see a lot of baseless theorycrafting without actually having tried out the build. | ||
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Geiko
France1933 Posts
On May 24 2011 19:28 ChickenLips wrote: who even does that? The last time I saw that was dimaga vs whitera in some match months ago and dimaga lost hilariously to just a standard zealot sentry defense. That's just a stupid cheese, sacrificing A METRIC FUCKTON of economy on the offchance that the Protoss is stupid enough to let the lings do damage. Zerg doesn't work like "i'm gonna pressure a little bit off 18 drones and then drone-whore", at that drone count you either commit to an attack and win or you lose. Spamming speedlings without scouting what the P does might be a soft counter to this strategy but it's so bad, rarely done and dies to so many other strategies (namely all the other standard ones) that you can safely ignore it contemplating this build. Just cancel the Nexus, I'm sorry to say but I just see a lot of baseless theorycrafting without actually having tried out the build. Lol at random guy flaming blue post even though he is wrong ^^ Mass speedling all-in is one of the most important constraint when designing a PvZ build. Ever wondered why the standard 3 gate sentry expand needed 4-5 sentries before expanding ? Just use the search function and type "speedling" if you don't believe me. The time between when your scouting probe dies and the time you get an hallucination or observer in his base is enough for zergs to mass speedlings off 2 base (low econ) and destroy your expansion. Also, "just cancelling" your expo isn't always possible (if the push comes after it is finished) and even if you do cancel it, you are still 1 base vs 2 base (even with low drone count) and need to make something happen fast before getting outmacroed. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On May 24 2011 19:58 Geiko wrote: Mass speedling all-in is one of the most important constraint when designing a PvZ build. wow just wow Noone, absolutely noone does a speedling all-in at a high level to attack a sentry expand. I don't even know where you come up with something this blatantly wrong. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On May 24 2011 20:42 iamke55 wrote: ChickenLips, your logic is ridiculous. If you seriously think it's a good idea to ignore possibilities like that when making a build, go ahead and 16 nexus every game because "lol 6 pool is a stupid cheese let's just ignore it exists because the last time I saw it Slush got owned by Naniwa!" Because that's exactly what I said.... My logic is: Noone attacks a sentry expand with mass speedling. That's such a stupid and bad build. You see 2 gas and you mass speedlings? If it's DTs, you're dead, if it's Stargate units, you're dead, if it's 3gate expand, you're dead, if it's blink stalkers, you're dead, MAYBE!!!! it's a 2gate sentry expand (which almost noone does atm) and MAYBE you can delay his expansion for a huge economic hit, which probably isn't even true because: On May 24 2011 20:22 Keilah wrote: I'd like to repeat, until your expo completes the only way to get even one more sentry than my build provides is to skip/greatly delay hallucinate. And that can only get you a maximum of one extra sentry, which btw you can get with 2 gates by using one chrono on a gateway. | ||
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Geiko
France1933 Posts
On May 24 2011 20:56 ChickenLips wrote: Because that's exactly what I said.... My logic is: Noone attacks a sentry expand with mass speedling. That's such a stupid and bad build. You see 2 gas and you mass speedlings? If it's DTs, you're dead, if it's Stargate units, you're dead, if it's 3gate expand, you're dead, if it's blink stalkers, you're dead, MAYBE!!!! it's a 2gate sentry expand (which almost noone does atm) and MAYBE you can delay his expansion for a huge economic hit, which probably isn't even true because: People get greedy, expand with fewer sentries than they should etc... All-in builds like this (2 base speedlings) is what keep people honest and therefor, it is definitely relevant when discussing a PvZ sentry expand build. This build is what jusitfies the need for 4-5 sentries in the first place. Instead of discarding the possibility of speedling all-in , I'd just like to know if this build can deal with it. Your statement saying "Lol noone does this anwmore" is irrelevant. A safe PvZ opener should be able to deal with everything Z can throw at it. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
I have said a few times in the thread that 'if that one extra sentry is absolutely crucial' then my build is fail. I really doubt it though, i mean... 1 sentry :| | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 24 2011 13:31 iamke55 wrote: With only 2 gates, your opponent can deny your expo for a very long time with just speedlings and drone behind his pressure. You are also completely screwed against any kind of expo-cancel, 1 base all-in without the 3rd gate. Even if your build might have better odds against the roach/speedling attack recently popularized by losira, you're just playing the metagame and relying on your opponent not massing speedlings early game. This is pretty much nonsense. You have the exact same amount of units as you are actually not capped by gateway production but by gas income in a 2 or 3 gate expand. The reason 3 gate expand is so popular imo is because it is more hidden. It throws down the 2nd and 3rd gate later making it harder to scout. Besides that it can also be more aggresive then a 2 gate by doing stuff like adding a 4th gate and going nexus cancel ala MC. If you dismiss the fact you can scare them into booming less hard, something that only really works at the highest levels anyway where signals are really important, then a 2 gate is simply more efficient then a 3 gate. At the pro level it is much more important for a build to be hidden or hard to scout then it is at the level 99% of the forum visitors plays at. In that way I think 2 gate expand is the most solid way to expand. | ||
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