EPT[G] - remaking the sentry expand (PvZ) - Page 2
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Keilah
731 Posts
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InVerno
258 Posts
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friendo
46 Posts
Replays: err... the replay sites don't seem to be working for me since the latest patch. If anyone tries the build and knows how to post a replay, let me know. Otherwise I'll post some once the sites get the new replay format sorted. http://drop.sc/ works fine. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 22 2011 20:40 InVerno wrote: Very interesting. I was trying to remake it in some way because it seemed that the old build timing was out and could be improved in some way. But I'm not too happy to use 3 boost on core. I tend to believe that a 3gate can never have the economy it had before, and to achieve that result I have to stand on two. Ccurrently all versions of three gates that i use got aggressive component. I'm not very happy to skip the stalker as many because I can not do nothing even though he took the gas later. So i do 2gate in cross and 3 in close position. Well, you still get to use 4 early chronoboosts on the nexus and lay down the expansion nexus quite early. You don't need any chronoboosts on gateways. I'm satisfied with the econ it provides - Minigun says he has 31 probes at 6:30 and so do I. I don't know when exactly he plants his expansion nexus, but I doubt it's any faster than 5:50. Once you've scouted your opponent with phoenixes, you have 1-2 chronoboosts immediately to use on gates, probes, or +1, with another 2 coming in about 15s. In other news, I feel the same way about early aggression. If I see my opponent take his gas super late, I generally skip the first zealot and build a stalker first. (might be better to go zealot-stalker, style choice). In fact, I don't even really LIKE sentry expanding! I just love problem-solving, and this was an interesting problem to solve  | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 22 2011 18:24 kyarisan wrote: edit: i want to know more about which all-ins WG first is safer against? 3rr pops to mind, and inbase hatchery was mentioned. IMO warpgate first also gives a better econ, because the faster 5th+ sentries allow you to defend a newly planted nexus earlier. I don't think hallucinate first allows you to lay down the nexus before 6:00 and still be able to defend it vs zergling harass. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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cmccorkle66
United States1 Post
Thank you so much for this! This has been giving me nightmares on my normal 3 gate sentry expand. Gonna try it out! | ||
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Lazy_89
United States87 Posts
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setmeal
162 Posts
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SC2TheDroid
United States54 Posts
How is it beneficial to have 2 gates over three, and a nexus no earlier? Am I missing something? | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On May 22 2011 18:33 FataLe wrote: Oh you just ooze knowledge on the matter, don't you.. If it were that easy, which it's not.. you wouldn't be seeing this many threads revolving around a single build order this long after it was introduced mainstream now would you. No, he's right. 3gate expand is still safe. This thread isn't even a 3gate expand, it's barely 2gate. The third gate isn't even started (much less producing units) until WAY after the nexus hits. | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
Some players like to play safe and play well at it, but atleast for me personally, I dont really like it and dont like to give up this tiny edge to the opponent. I'm a Masters Toss. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
I actually do a fair amount of coaching on this roach/ling subject, and every person asking for help on this subject, has been able to leave the coaching session being able to stop it, but this could work too I guess. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I have the build just a little bit different though, first of all i 13 gate instead of 14 gate. I delay my second chronoboost to do this, I think it's worth it to get the quicker gateway as that means quicker cybercore etc. Also quite important in the case of a 6 pool etc. I also boost WG tech 4 times instead of 3, this makes the build allign better with your sentry production. WG tech with 4 boosts = 120 secs, 3 sentries = 111 secs, the first sentry starts roughly 10s after i start WG (because of zealot) so this lines up perfectly. (i'm a perfectionist when it comes to idle gateway time..) Then i also boost hallucination once actually so that overall it actually completes around 6:50. For bigger maps I don't put blind cannons at all and just send the hallucination over the attack path, i can make cannons reactively just in time then. On smaller maps I get one cannon blindly and then more depending on what I see. Finally on really small maps I don't get hallucination and just make 1 blind cannon and don't bother with hallucination. http://drop.sc/11125/d This is a rep of me performing the build. I don't get pushed (didn't have a rep showing that) but the idea is pretty clear and you can see the build works quite smoothly. | ||
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lilky
United States131 Posts
For example, he zerg player may decide to begin the attack when he has 20 drones. Instead, he may decide to attack at 35 drones. He may decide to go ling heavy or he might go roach heavy. Also, depending on the map and how good his injects/macro are, there can be a huge difference in the number of units you see attacking and at what time they attack. That being said, i think a lot of people dont quite understand how strong this push is...ive played zerg players attack with upwards of 15 roaches and 20 speedlings at the 8 minute mark with the zerg player on 30 drones....2 cannons and a few sentries isnt going to stop that kind of force | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 23 2011 02:58 lilky wrote: The roach-ling timing push that zerg players do doesnt follow that strict of a guideline/build. Unlike a 4gate, which will always hit at 6 minutes with 6 protoss units, the zerg can add little nuances that change the timing/strength/speed of the attack. For example, he zerg player may decide to begin the attack when he has 20 drones. Instead, he may decide to attack at 35 drones. He may decide to go ling heavy or he might go roach heavy. Also, depending on the map and how good his injects/macro are, there can be a huge difference in the number of units you see attacking and at what time they attack. That being said, i think a lot of people dont quite understand how strong this push is...ive played zerg players attack with upwards of 15 roaches and 20 speedlings at the 8 minute mark with the zerg player on 30 drones....2 cannons and a few sentries isnt going to stop that kind of force Yes the timings can vary a lot but any build that hits you hard before your nexus completes can be dealt with by canceling the nexus and going back up the ramp. If you do the build well your nexus completes around 7:20 and you will only have a pylon finished at the lowground by that time. If zerg chooses to hit hard before that time they will have less then 25 drones so canceling the nexus isn't that bad, they will hurt themselves more then they hurt you. If they hit later you should already have had a chance to scout them with hallucination and thus you can react with cannons. Two or three cannons really is enough to hold off the hardest rushes on your expansion. Note that by 8 minutes you can have about 8 sentries 3 stalkers and 2 cannons, the exact composition he chooses to use really doesn't matter that much all you need to do is FF well. Many players may find this build hard to stop and it might be but if you have good enough forcefields you should be able to hold it off fine. If you can't FF well you should play another race. It's just one of those many all-ins that is harder to stop then it is to perform. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On May 22 2011 19:28 done wrote: And then again in every single one of those threads some decent protoss player comes in and tells everyone how easy it is to hold this off with just decent building, some micro and not beeing too greedy... Just listen to Minigun for example, he served the last one of these threads >.< Edit: for everyone who is not getting it, building a forge and a cannon is not beeing greedy and reqired to be save vs this. Also not getting a nexus before 6min is. But in none of these threads the"decent protoss" gives a replay or a vod, which hint to total theorycraft when the same thing ("I hold it all the time, oops sorry I have no replay") happens in all threads. Even in this thread, OP claims his build works but can't post a replay because of a strange reason. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On May 23 2011 03:43 MrCon wrote: But in none of these threads the"decent protoss" gives a replay or a vod, which hint to total theorycraft when the same thing ("I hold it all the time, oops sorry I have no replay") happens in all threads. Even in this thread, OP claims his build works but can't post a replay because of a strange reason. I don't save replays. If this was such a good strat why isn't it ALL YOU SEE at high level play? Because it's easily stoppable, if you don't cut corners. | ||
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aZoX
Canada358 Posts
On May 23 2011 02:58 lilky wrote: The roach-ling timing push that zerg players do doesnt follow that strict of a guideline/build. Unlike a 4gate, which will always hit at 6 minutes with 6 protoss units, the zerg can add little nuances that change the timing/strength/speed of the attack. For example, he zerg player may decide to begin the attack when he has 20 drones. Instead, he may decide to attack at 35 drones. He may decide to go ling heavy or he might go roach heavy. Also, depending on the map and how good his injects/macro are, there can be a huge difference in the number of units you see attacking and at what time they attack. That being said, i think a lot of people dont quite understand how strong this push is...ive played zerg players attack with upwards of 15 roaches and 20 speedlings at the 8 minute mark with the zerg player on 30 drones....2 cannons and a few sentries isnt going to stop that kind of force Here you go, At 8 minutes you should have WAY more then '' few sentries '' 8 min is quite late and you should have at least 6-7 sentries with high energy and some good amount of stalkers. no need for 2 canons, 1 is enough to hold this. check-out whitera he holds it frequently. I'm top master and i hold this with 1 canon, clutch forcefield and good micro ! | ||
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