EPTI'm not a bad player, but to be honest I enjoy sorting out these sorts of puzzles even more than I enjoy playing, so it was a labour of love =)
[G] - remaking the sentry expand (PvZ) - Page 4
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Keilah
731 Posts
I'm not a bad player, but to be honest I enjoy sorting out these sorts of puzzles even more than I enjoy playing, so it was a labour of love =) | ||
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s0up
United States64 Posts
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
On May 23 2011 11:53 Keilah wrote: Look, just try it, you'll see. Even with just two gates you still have idle gateway time. A third early gate doesn't get you more units, it gets you more idle gateway time. The only thing that costs you any units is hallucinate. If your normal 3gate gets hallucinate anyways then both builds will get the same number of units by 9:00-10:00. 2gate trades 1-2 units during the roachling attack in exchange for hallucinate and 2 completed cannons. Would you rather have 9 units, 3 gates, and a cannon halfway warped in? Or 8 units, 2 gates, a third gate halfway warped in, and 2 cannons completed? I'll give it a shot with my practice partner, given those timings, but I can't count how many times my second warp in has saved my butt or allowed me to break out against heavy ling play. It sounds like I'm sacrificing survivability and utility to put a lot of pressure on a zerg who's just macroing for the chance to stop one specific type of cheese with cannons near the 8 minute mark. When I'm being all-in attacked I tend to actually use the three warpgates to live. And you should be able to produce out of them even with chrono if that's what you need to do. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
PS - Losira attack is not cheese, it's not like you instawin if he aborts the attack and camps outside your expo. He still has a decent drone count and units, he's just behind in tech. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Due to the sentry build time buff you're not getting that much improvement in terms of build times by rushing out your warp gate tech, whereas you could have more units by chronoing the gateways, or a better economy by chrono boosting the nexus. Seems strange to me to chrono boost an upgrade 3 times that doesn't really affect your ability to hold off aggression (obviously get it, just the difference between chronoing it and not chronoing it). Kind of makes me facepalm every time I see a protoss do it in pvz when expanding :\ | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:03 Keilah wrote: I think you'll like it. Believe me, you are not sacrificing survivability. On top of that, a blind cannon costs 150min compared to 75min for 2 cancelled cannons, so while your attack will be slightly later, it will also be a little stronger. And maybe most importantly, how can you possibly know that it's safe to attack after expanding with your 3gate army around 8:00-9:30 if you don't have hallucinate? You can't! PS - Losira attack is not cheese, it's not like you instawin if he aborts the attack and camps outside your expo. He still has a decent drone count and units, he's just behind in tech. I don't think you understand the fundamental difference between cheese and an all-in  | ||
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:03 Keilah wrote: I think you'll like it. Believe me, you are not sacrificing survivability. On top of that, a blind cannon costs 150min compared to 75min for 2 cancelled cannons, so while your attack will be slightly later, it will also be a little stronger. And maybe most importantly, how can you possibly know that it's safe to attack after expanding with your 3gate army around 8:00-9:30 if you don't have hallucinate? You can't! If I can, I like to drone scout his natural and see his saturation at around 6:30 or so. Otherwise, yeah, you need to use hallucinate. Then again, a lot of times you crush a lot of lings early with your sentries and just know you can at least push out and force him to keep making units. Forcefields allow me to retreat as well if needed. I don't ladder at all and just practice with some teammates. So when I tell them to be aggressive, they don't stick to one type of cheese. Sure, heavy roaches at 8-10m is tough but they like to do a lot of two base ling attacks that is just nasty. Two gating it with no cannons up... ewww. I'll have to see though. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:14 -orb- wrote: I don't get why you would chrono boost warp gate tech instead of the sentries/probes. Due to the sentry build time buff you're not getting that much improvement in terms of build times by rushing out your warp gate tech, whereas you could have more units by chronoing the gateways, or a better economy by chrono boosting the nexus. Seems strange to me to chrono boost an upgrade 3 times that doesn't really affect your ability to hold off aggression (obviously get it, just the difference between chronoing it and not chronoing it). Kind of makes me facepalm every time I see a protoss do it in pvz when expanding :\ a) I do chrono the nexus quite a lot b) Chronoboost cannot give you more sentries, you are limited by gas not gateway cooldown c) Chronoboosting 3 times makes the research complete at the same time as gateway #2 finishes a sentry d) If you don't chronoboost warpgate, hallucinate starts and completes later, and getting hallucinate in time to keep or cancel your cannons is the entire point of this build. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:15 -orb- wrote: I don't think you understand the fundamental difference between cheese and an all-in Perhaps you could enlighten me? I always thought that cheese was something that would probably make you win if unscouted, and probably make you lose if scouted (or blind countered). If you have a way to ensure it won't be scouted (slings), you can hardly call that cheese. | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
PS: Actually Allica did put down a cannon as soon as the nexus was done/80%, and i seriously doubt that you can have better FF than allica, also, as i remembered, 3gate > 2gate. (Not to be taken seriously.) | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:17 murkk wrote: they like to do a lot of two base ling attacks that is just nasty. Two gating it with no cannons up... ewww. I'll have to see though. It occurs to me that if you see a lot of speedlings like this, you know by default that the roaches won't be coming at 7:30-8:30, so you don't need to chronoboost hallucinate. Use the chronoboost on gateways instead, and consider cancelling hallucinate (i wouldn't). | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:20 Keilah wrote: a) I do chrono the nexus quite a lot b) Chronoboost cannot give you more sentries, you are limited by gas not gateway cooldown c) Chronoboosting 3 times makes the research complete at the same time as gateway #2 finishes a sentry d) If you don't chronoboost warpgate, hallucinate starts and completes later, and getting hallucinate in time to keep or cancel your cannons is the entire point of this build. Actually I've been using halluc before warpgate builds pretty often and it works really well. You might be limited by gas for sentries but you can add in zealots/stalkers if you feel the need depending on the zerg build, and since you get those sentries out earlier from chronoing them you can have an easier time defending early speedling harassment that might try to block the expansion/etc. I've actually be experimenting as well with builds where I get my 2nd gas before the cyber core starts. This way when you chrono out your sentries you'll have more gas ready and you'll get more sentries out for the expansion.... I haven't tried some kind of direct side-by-side comparison but I feel like this would be a lot more efficient and give you a better army while you expand than chronoing warpgate tech (which gets you almost no advantage at that point in the game). | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:27 TolEranceNA wrote: This is a great anti-roachling timing all in build. But however, its just like our Zerg's anti 4-gate build, its great against 4gate, and pretty much screws you over economically if you face other build (though i think it might not screw you over as much as the anti-4gate but w/e), and zerg can be really ambiguous about their build, you don' t know whats gonna pop out of those larvae. Not really? It's exactly the same as a standard 3-gate expand, but you get the third gate a bit later, and build two cannons a bit sooner. If you scout that he's all drones or w/e, you cancel the cannons and are actually 75 minerals AHEAD of a protoss who blind built a useless cannon, or you are 37 minerals behind if you choose to keep a single cannon for defense. Getting hallucinate is required to punish greedy play before observers, because without it you are in the dark as to whether he's being greedy, and it's unsafe to move out early with that many sentries. How do you know he's not waiting to ambush you, unless you have hallucinate or observers? So yeah, if you think a standard 3-gate expand screws you over economically, then so does this. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On May 23 2011 09:40 Markwerf wrote: I started out with practically your build but came to the conclusion 3 boosts on nexus instead of 4 is simply more efficient. It makes the build smoother by letting WG finish at exactly the same time as your 3rd sentry pops (whereas your build has to wait 10 secs) and it works smoother with pylon timings. Chrono boosts after the third on the nexus are generally a waste anyways, you are getting close to saturation by that point and chrono on tech or gateway is almost always more efficient. If chronoing tech allowes you to safely put your nexus 10s earlier it was already more efficient.. Just check the replay I provided earlier as that way the build is very efficient, I only need to have the forge a bit earlier which can be done by getting another sentry instead of a stalker. No, you couldn't be more wrong. You're saying chrono boosts on a nexus after the first 3 are generally a waste... are you serious right now? You say you'll be nearing saturation? And that chronoing tech or a gateway is more efficient? Do you not realize you're about to have a 2nd base up that is going to need saturation? It takes 24 probes to fully saturate an 8 mineral field base (not including the 6 drones for gas saturation). That means for a chrono on a nexus to "not be efficient" you'd essentially have to already have 60 probes for your two bases. Unless you're fully saturated and not expanding soon it's almost always an efficient move (maybe not the right move since you need chrono on other things to stay alive/make timing attacks/etc, but efficient for economy nonetheless) to chrono probes from a nexus. | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:35 Keilah wrote: Not really? It's exactly the same as a standard 3-gate expand, but you get the third gate a bit later, and build two cannons a bit sooner. If you scout that he's all drones or w/e, you cancel the cannons and are actually 75 minerals AHEAD of a protoss who blind built a useless cannon, or you are 37 minerals behind if you choose to keep a single cannon for defense. Getting hallucinate is required to punish greedy play before observers, because without it you are in the dark as to whether he's being greedy, and it's unsafe to move out early with that many sentries. How do you know he's not waiting to ambush you, unless you have hallucinate or observers? So yeah, if you think a standard 3-gate expand screws you over economically, then so does this. I really hope you finish reading the passage, especially the PS. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On May 23 2011 09:53 setmeal wrote: How about this one? GreatFields by Minigun Minigun ForceFields Against Roach/Linghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAEYzFxvAV0 So fraking impresive defense. Still, the Z missmicro his roaches pretty much. Anyways, this build is so riduculous that any mid diamond can execute it, and as P you need GM forcefields to defend it?? WTF. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 23 2011 13:55 TolEranceNA wrote: I really hope you finish reading the passage, especially the PS. I did, but tbh it's really confusing. You need to rephrase that because I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Alicia made a late cannon and has good FF and 3gates > 2gates? And it's not to be taken seriously? Whaaaaaaaaaaa? | ||
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ePBuckets
Canada207 Posts
i've realized that if you are so much as 10 seconds late on your timings then you WILL die to the roach/ling losira timing push. the cannons are just shy of completion, not enough units etc etc. honestly maybe with some refinement/work on my part i can get this build to fly (personally). but for right now i see vulnerabilities, and i'd honestly prefer to just go 3 gates hold off the pressure and then expo when safe (later or not its better than early and getting denied) edit: that rep with mini vs that dude above me, i feel like i'm in that exact same spot when losira timing hits, and you have to have extremely good unit control to hold off the push. i feel like i can hold it off but only for so long until it floods and i've lost sentries or w/e. i have pretty good control, but not GM control like mini to make this viable. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
If you're a lower level player and not confident in your ability to execute smoothly, try placing the forge before the nexus. It's not optimal but you're guaranteed to get the cannons up in time. You could also throw down an extra chronoboost on the core to give you +10s if you do something silly like start warpgate tech late. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
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