On April 29 2011 14:17 Magus wrote:There is no chronoboost in BW, you have just convinced me that you have never watched Broodwar before and have no real basis for your arguments. Good day to you sir.
Yes. I know that. I was being sarcastic in that sentence. Like in every other sentence in the post. My point was that all the subtleties of Brood War that took years and years to figure out don't apply to an entirely different game, and only the very basic "make more dudes" mechanics transfer.
On April 29 2011 14:17 Legatus Lanius wrote: instead of going off on a sarcasm tangent, why dont you answer this?
Because sarcasm tangents are fun and relieve frustration!
how will sc2 became at least as good as brood war if all of the competitive aspects of the game have been cut down? how will it happen when people cant show their individual strengths? how will it happen when the units are generic, boring and simplistic?
Well, I honestly feel the game is improving both due to patches and the players themselves getting better. I imagine it'll just kind of keep doing like it's doing. We're starting to see FF (the key example of the "SC2 spells remove micro!" argument) get countered by Medivac micro. That's pretty baller. We're seeing multipronged attacks more often, and more drops/harassment. SC2 is starting to be figured out, and we're seeing the game IMPROVE because people are figuring things out. The implication of the "We had years to study BW" argument is that SC2 can't possibly have depths yet undiscovered, and that's patently untrue; new and interesting stuff is getting discovered all the freaking time.
I'm still seeing gigantic holes in even top-level play. MC, two-time GSL Champion and self-proclaimed Bonjwa (Losira's better, btw), keeps all his Templar on the one hotkey, and has to have a sad when they all get EMPed. He leaves his Zealots behind his stalkers (!), and lost a battle because of it. He doesn't blink micro in large battles. Etc etc etc. We're nowhere near the "skill ceiling", assuming we ever hit it.
I know the "give it time" is a pet peeve of BW fans. And if the game weren't improving tons and tons, I'd agree. But it is. When people stop improving and stop making really fundamental snarf plays, then we can discuss the problems of high-level SC2. There just isn't any high-level SC2 yet, not as long as MC can put his melee units in the back and still win GSLs.
Edit: I guess my point is thus: If SC2 came out in 1998 and BW came out in 2010, SC2 players would have learned all the RTS fundamentals and stuff, but BW would still look like a pretty shitty game in 2011 because no one would have mastered it yet.
also, i said a 15 year old with no RTS experience, not a 15 year old with no progaming experience. maybe you missed that?
I didn't say that there's NOTHING nothing to learn from Brood War. Maynarding. The concept of keeping your money low. Clicking fast. That's kind of it. Obviously there's more to BW then clicking fast an APM. I do like BW quite a bit and don't mean to demean it. It just doesn't carry over anywhere nearly as directly as some people think. Thousands of hours spent microing vultures doesn't really help you micro Hellions as much as you'd think.The only skills that carried from BW were the really broad basic ones of APM and macro and stuff. That's why Warcraft 3 players were able to come in to SC2, and were only slightly less successful that former BW pros.
the point you seem to be missing is that even if the skill ceiling is reached, itll still be lower than the skill ceiling of brood war because the core fundamentals that made brood war competitive and skill infused have been gumbified. even if MC learnt how to control his army perfectly, it still wouldnt avoid sc2 have horribly bland units with alot less functionality and uniqueness than their brood war counterparts
Most Brood War units are bland, too. The dragoon isn't inherently interesting; high-level players make it interesting. And it took them years to figure out how to do it. Years that are completely irrelevant to SC2. Nothing that made high-level dragoon play interesting applies to stalkers, yes. This means no one knows how to use stalkers in an amazing way yet.
That's why I compare GSL 6 to the sixth OSL in 2001. In 2001, there was a LOT more to learn about BW, and in 2011 there's a LOT more to learn about SC2. Yes, BW players have a little candle of basic RTS knowledge this time, but they're exploring the grand canyon, so it'll still take time.
On April 29 2011 14:55 palexhur wrote: Dont waste your time Legatus, the last time that I tried to explain some of this new RTS gamers what is the difference between BW and SC2 I got banned, they just think that an interesting game is like those in NASL, 2 guys sitting in their asses for long time and then one 200/200 clash and everything is finished.
In Starcraft 2's defense, NASL is pretty fucking awful generally.
On April 29 2011 15:48 nalgene wrote: You could micro your way out of some attacks like this one in BW, but SC2 doesn't allow you to micro your way out of this example.
Nexus/Stargate/Cannon+3 Fast Flying Air units+one being produced in both examples
Actually, that example is somewhat outdated considering that they added an artificial, automatic "moving shot" to the Phoenix sometime after the video was made.
Anyways, IMO MBS, unlimited unit selection, and automining are some of the most overrated controversies of the SC2 vs BW debate. Even if they removed them from SC2, the issues of blander units and other fundamental problems would still persist. If they included those features in BW 12 years ago, I think it would've had a negligible effect on the game's development considering how the units in BW allow for a better playing and spectator experience.
ATM, the mechanical differences between SC2 and BW are an overrated non-issue, IMO. There are bigger problems in SC2 such as some lack of interesting units, lack of micro-based soft counters, lack of space-controlling units, and swarm-based pathing AI. Fixing these problems would have a much greater, more productive impact than simply reverting back to BW mechanics.
You guys talk about "optimum play" coming in the near future for SC2 but the dev team is ruining it by bombarding it with game changing patches?!? How, on earth, will there ever be optimum play if you keep on reformatting the play?!?
From time and time again. People keep on insisting this "some day, it will all be ok.". No, there wont be unless this Lead Dev can get a clue as to what made BW great.
On April 29 2011 14:55 palexhur wrote: Dont waste your time Legatus, the last time that I tried to explain some of this new RTS gamers what is the difference between BW and SC2 I got banned, they just think that an interesting game is like those in NASL, 2 guys sitting in their asses for long time and then one 200/200 clash and everything is finished.
wow either you explained them by shitting on them or they took it really badly. :p
I'm glad I have played BW and have that experience of playing BW.
On April 29 2011 16:09 aimaimaim wrote: You guys talk about "optimum play" coming in the near future for SC2 but the dev team is ruining it by bombarding it with game changing patches?!? How, on earth, will there ever be optimum play if you keep on reformatting the play?!?
From time and time again. People keep on insisting this "some day, it will all be ok.". No, there wont be unless this Lead Dev can get a clue as to what made BW great.
most brood war units are definitely NOT bland. the dragoon is kinda bland, yes, but all the other units for protoss (mostly) have their own little niche, and all have different characteristics that stopped them from just being massed and clumped and ram into the opponent. in pvz, all the protoss units are pretty fragile on their own, and need to be partnered up with other units or used in a non-mass way. take pvz for instance, all the common units for protoss sans one or two cannot be massed into a ball (reavers, dark templar, high templar, observers, shuttles, archons etc etc) and work alot better when you use them for harassment or for specialised purposes. can you say, with honesty, that sc2 units are more specialised and take greater care to use efficiently than bw units?
On April 29 2011 16:18 Legatus Lanius wrote: most brood war units are definitely NOT bland. the dragoon is kinda bland, yes, but all the other units for protoss (mostly) have their own little niche, and all have different characteristics that stopped them from just being massed and clumped and ram into the opponent. in pvz, all the protoss units are pretty fragile on their own, and need to be partnered up with other units or used in a non-mass way. take pvz for instance, all the common units for protoss sans one or two cannot be massed into a ball (reavers, dark templar, high templar, observers, shuttles, archons etc etc) and work alot better when you use them for harassment or for specialised purposes. can you say, with honesty, that sc2 units are more specialised and take greater care to use efficiently than bw units?
Dude... you had the thread with "gumby-friendly game", leave it at that
On April 29 2011 16:18 Legatus Lanius wrote: most brood war units are definitely NOT bland. the dragoon is kinda bland, yes, but all the other units for protoss (mostly) have their own little niche, and all have different characteristics that stopped them from just being massed and clumped and ram into the opponent. in pvz, all the protoss units are pretty fragile on their own, and need to be partnered up with other units or used in a non-mass way. take pvz for instance, all the common units for protoss sans one or two cannot be massed into a ball (reavers, dark templar, high templar, observers, shuttles, archons etc etc) and work alot better when you use them for harassment or for specialised purposes. can you say, with honesty, that sc2 units are more specialised and take greater care to use efficiently than bw units?
Dude... you had the thread with "gumby-friendly game", leave it at that
well if thats what everyone wants, ill leave the thread
On April 29 2011 16:18 Legatus Lanius wrote: most brood war units are definitely NOT bland. the dragoon is kinda bland, yes, but all the other units for protoss (mostly) have their own little niche, and all have different characteristics that stopped them from just being massed and clumped and ram into the opponent. in pvz, all the protoss units are pretty fragile on their own, and need to be partnered up with other units or used in a non-mass way. take pvz for instance, all the common units for protoss sans one or two cannot be massed into a ball (reavers, dark templar, high templar, observers, shuttles, archons etc etc) and work alot better when you use them for harassment or for specialised purposes. can you say, with honesty, that sc2 units are more specialised and take greater care to use efficiently than bw units?
No, I beg to differ.. Zealots are imba in PvZ. Zerg needs to do alot of shit just to counter these marauding zealots. Well atleast in progames, in low level games though, zealots aren't that imba. Like how Queen is imba now against Mech.
On April 29 2011 16:18 Legatus Lanius wrote: most brood war units are definitely NOT bland. the dragoon is kinda bland, yes, but all the other units for protoss (mostly) have their own little niche, and all have different characteristics that stopped them from just being massed and clumped and ram into the opponent. in pvz, all the protoss units are pretty fragile on their own, and need to be partnered up with other units or used in a non-mass way. take pvz for instance, all the common units for protoss sans one or two cannot be massed into a ball (reavers, dark templar, high templar, observers, shuttles, archons etc etc) and work alot better when you use them for harassment or for specialised purposes. can you say, with honesty, that sc2 units are more specialised and take greater care to use efficiently than bw units?
No, I beg to differ.. Zealots are imba in PvZ. Zerg needs to do alot of shit just to counter these marauding zealots. Well atleast in progames, in low level games though, zealots aren't that imba. Like how Queen is imba now against Mech.
On April 29 2011 16:18 Legatus Lanius wrote: most brood war units are definitely NOT bland. the dragoon is kinda bland, yes, but all the other units for protoss (mostly) have their own little niche, and all have different characteristics that stopped them from just being massed and clumped and ram into the opponent. in pvz, all the protoss units are pretty fragile on their own, and need to be partnered up with other units or used in a non-mass way. take pvz for instance, all the common units for protoss sans one or two cannot be massed into a ball (reavers, dark templar, high templar, observers, shuttles, archons etc etc) and work alot better when you use them for harassment or for specialised purposes. can you say, with honesty, that sc2 units are more specialised and take greater care to use efficiently than bw units?
I was debating making a comment about capital letters and their place in a modern forum post, and then this gem stuck out at me.
take pvz for instance, all the common units for protoss sans one or two cannot be massed into a ball (reavers, dark templar, high templar, observers, shuttles, archons etc etc
I love how effortlessly you elided over the Zealot and the Dragoon, which make up the vast majority of a lategame protoss army.
This is actually one of my favorite games, from 2008, before I learned who Combat-EX was. This is legitimately one of the great BW games, and is on my favourite BW map, Andromeda (I wish people on ICCUP played it...). It includes a massive ball of archons, incidentally.
can you say, with honesty, that sc2 units are more specialised and take greater care to use efficiently than bw units?
Anyway, what SC2 Protoss units compare to the BW units you mentioned?
Dark Templar - Dark Templar. Not really much different. Mobile detection is a little more of a pain in SC2, so I guess they're better for map control, but otherwise about the same.
High Templar - Taking advantage of Smart Casting means having them all on one hotkey. Having them all on one hotkey means they clump. Having them clumped means they get EMPed (as happened to MC a few times). So using HTs in the blander way is actually objectively worse than microing them all individually. (I do like the idea of having a fairly good easy way for the casuals, and a significantly better hard way for pros). I will admit that Storm is less powerful and game-changing than the BW variant, but it can still flip battles. HTs also have feedback, which you're going to want to cast on ghosts and maybe medivacs. HTs certainly ARE being used with much less skill, but I don't think they will be forever because making them act like BW HTs makes them better. You just have to manually spread them in SC2 when you didn't in BW. I also keep seeing pros walk the HTs in front of their army so they get sniped, which I assume isn't on purpose.
Observers - Observers. Nothing's really different. They observe. It's what they do.
Shuttles - White-Ra has some nice Warp Prism micro in PvP, but they probably need more health to get enough use.
Archons - Archons. Once they become massive in the next patch (FINALLY), they'll be exactly the same.
Reavers I'll give you. I've seen Phoenixes gigglestomp entire mineral lines, but you need four or five of them to do that. Maybe the expansion will fill the niche. Reavers are popular, after all, so maybe they were saved for the expansion.
You didn't mention Corsairs, but I'll give you those as well. Phoenixes are apparently the fast anti-air of the Corsair with the worker-killin' of the Reaver, and they're one of the better units in SC2 for that reason, but they're honestly not as good right now. Talkin' bout tier one, Zealots need a little babysitting but a lot less than BW (but it's amazing how many top Protosses fail to even put them in the front. MC is sadly not unique in that regard, [b]San[/b[). Blink micro for stalkers is pretty cool. We see players blink individual injured stalkers to the back to keep them alive and shooting, and as the skill level increases we'll see them doing it in large battles as well, which will certainly help unblob them a little, hopefully in conjunction with other micro improvements (medivac micro vs Force Fields, Ghosts vs Templar, storm-dodging, etc).
On April 29 2011 14:59 Snaphoo wrote: [...] if that was true then someone who plays BW at a high level could become Masters in SC2 in less than a week, yes? Same game? [...]
Hmm, as far as i have heard, this is definitely true.. Have you heard the saying "Getting Diamond in SC2 is the equivalent of logging on to Iccup"?.. Whats Masters compared to high level Brood War then?
On April 29 2011 02:20 Legatus Lanius wrote: comparing the 6th osl to the 6th gsl is criminally stupid. both games, as RTS's, are virtually the same at the base. sure, one has less macro/less micro/less demanding units, but its still the same idea. in the 6th gsl, you have ex-high level brood war players who already have strong mechanical skills and dexterity that just needs to be applied to new hotkeys/new buildings/new units etc etc. circa bw 2001, nobody had any idea what they were doing, even noobs like iron and mvp would embarass boxer and garimto back then
I feel like the Brood War fans in this thread are being unfair to SC2, but in a very predictable way-- it's pretty cliche.
Fans of an old [game, technology, genre of music] bemoan that its successor [StarCraft II, Facebook, hip-hop] is totally without value, a pale comparison to the old days of [Brood War, landline telephones, disco]. These young whipper-snappers (read: SC2 fans) just don't know about the glory days. It's an age old-story.
StarCraft 2 is LESS THAN 1 YEAR OLD. Do you remember what competitive StarCraft 1 was like 8 months in? When BroodWar was just a gleam in Blizzard's eye? The game was horribly balanced at first, and up until BroodWar was released mutalisks were just ABSURDLY overpowered. Hell, half the new units in BW were designed to counter/mitigate them (Corsair, DA with Maelstrom, Valkyrie).
People whined, people moaned.
But... ultimately, they were proven wrong and BroodWar was a great succcess. Have a little faith. SC2 is a new game, and will come into its own. It's already staked a significant claim to moving towards being the premier eSport in the world (prize purse, popularity) and is being widely embraced and bringing StarCraft into the mainstream. I for one think that for all the criticism, SC2 is way better balanced than SC1 was 8 months in.
Remember when a quarter of the map pool was Blistering Sands/Steppes of War? No one was even dreaming of maps like Terminus and Tal'Darim being added in within ~6 months of release. But Blizz adjusted. That's just one example... SC2 is extremely entertaining, is developing all the time, and is nowhere near its skill/design/entertainment ceiling. Instead of bashing it compared to BroodWar, embrace the ride and appreciate it as its own game.
[...]
First of all, I think using "trust the game will get good" is a lazy proxy for actually articulating what aspects of sc2 inspire such faith. Those on the other side have said, for example, that an abundance of one-dimensional units don't bode well for sc2. What, then, is your reason for believing otherwise? If it's just blind faith based on the "starcraft" and "blizzard" brand names, then, well, I think I'll just stop here.
But the more cogent counter-argument has already been written in this thread. It deserves reiteration: sc2 had 11 years of an rts e-sport to learn from. The notions of micro, macro, the concepts of economy and base management, multitasking, flanking, harassing, unit compositions, scouting, and so on...in other words, all the fundamentals of an rts have been fleshed out to a science by brood war. Moreover, the pro-scene sprung up globally even before retail, and has only intensified in number and quality of play. You're telling me that NONE of that carries over, that NONE of that accelerates the development of sc2 as an e-sport? I find that laughably naive, or willfully ignorant.
To illustrate: I watched a bit of the NASL today, and its amazing that Julyzerg is performing at such a high level in sc2. He'd been an over-the-hill legend for a while now; isn't it curious, if sc2 "is its own game," that a washed-up player like July was doing so well in sc2? Even more strangely, why are all the top pros ex-bw or ex-wc3 pros, if sc2 "is its own game"? It's because the rts genre is only so wide, and even within that narrow definition, sc2 sits pretty close to bw, and maybe even wc3, for the same concepts to apply.
Given all this, don't you think that we, as longtime bw fans, followers, students, have legitimate voices when it comes to thinking about sc2's future?
what really bugs me most is the forced enthusiasm so many of the commentators have. its like:
"OMG HES ATKING WITH UNITS!! THINGS ARE DIEING, THERES A COLLOSUS DOING SOO MUCH DAMAGE, ITS DOING SOOO MUCH DAMAGE, OMG HES TARGETING THE COLLOSUS, BUT THE PROTOSS PLAYER IS MOVING HIM BACK, HEEEESA MOVING THE COLLOSUS BACK!!!! HESSSA MOVING IT BACK,,, HES MOVING IT FORWARD! WHAT TERRIFIC MICRO!!!"
and then of course everyone loves this commentator because he can yell loud enough to force the viewer to pay attention to the battle.
And the game is soooo easy. I played the game for like a week when it came out, put it down until a month ago, and played for a few days as zerg. Having no understanding of the game other than bits I had picked up from tsl3 and a couple other vods I hit diamond. And this is when I was D+ on iccup.
There.. about three days of sc2 as a D+ player=diamond z.z
I wish blizzard would stop treating me like i'm + Show Spoiler +
seriously ribbon...you can't convince guys like lanius of SC2's future and don't bother to.Just like they can't convince you that SC2 is going to fail.I don't see anything that has not been discussed in this thread and that everyone is just repeating the same thing over and over.
@puppykiller I don't think that the commentators fake any emotion to the game.
yes, they make up the majority of a protoss army, but on their own theyre useless. you NEED to mix in gas heavy units too. but thats too narrow of a focus. look at snow vs jaedong in pdpop. sure, snow had an army of gumby units, but did they win him the game? no, more specialised units won it for him: reavers protected by the main group, templars in shuttles, dark templars roaming the map. its the same for many other protoss. even using small groups of zealots and dragoons in tactical ways is much better for than just massing it up for me.
i dont know what you mean by manually spreading HTs, are you talking about the unit or the storms?
i rewatched that video that was posted a few days ago. as an honest question, are games usually that devoid of harassment in tsl3? it seemed to me the whole game was either two big armies clashing or two big armies walking around the map
On April 29 2011 17:29 Legatus Lanius wrote: i rewatched that video that was posted a few days ago. as an honest question, are games usually that devoid of harassment in tsl3? it seemed to me the whole game was either two big armies clashing or two big armies walking around the map
its not just TSL3,most games are usually devoid of harassment.Harassment is something that people feel impossible to do although as TvP/PvT.
On April 29 2011 17:29 Legatus Lanius wrote: i rewatched that video that was posted a few days ago. as an honest question, are games usually that devoid of harassment in tsl3? it seemed to me the whole game was either two big armies clashing or two big armies walking around the map
its not just TSL3,most games are usually devoid of harassment.Harassment is something that people feel impossible to do although as TvP/PvT.
I thought the entire San vs sCfOu series from GSL Code S Season 2 had a TON of harassment from both players. Heck, that series is the rare antithesis to the much derided "200/200 ball vs ball 1-engagement" gameplay, especially considering that both players hovered far below max for the majority of the game. Even Artosis commented that the game looked an awful lot like Brood War, and I feel that the series does show potential for the kinds of games that SC2 can possibly provide.
Also, I think harassment is entirely possible in TvP/PvT. MMM allows for splitting off small forces into Medivacs for drops, which I see Terrans do A LOT in TvP to snipe tech buildings, probes, and expansions. In addition, I feel that Warp Prisms are criminally underused in every matchup, especially considering that their 100/40 health/shields is equivalent to the 80/60 health/shields of the Shuttle. San used extensively to great effect against sC by warping in Zealots and DTs for harassment, and Storm Drops are as powerful in SC2 as they were in BW despite almost never showing up in pro games.
Also, I think Ribbon has some good points. Pros just aren't playing optimally despite all the easier mechanics and AI helping them out. Some units, such as Warp Prisms, theoretically hold huge potential in gameplay and spectator appeal yet are still extremely underused. It is possible for players to play more entertaining, BW-esque games and styles instead of maxing out a ball and going for one big engagement, and I think this possibility is why people have hope in SC2 despite all its flaws.
Harassement in SC2 is not nearly as effective as it was in Brood War, due to the Protoss ability to chronoboost its probe production and warp in units at any given expansion if a harassement occurs there, ever seen a vulture raid on an expo?(YES YOU BISU), in SC2 you just warp in units to kill the harassing units, hell you can even block off your mistakes if you fail to pylon block it(not that that happens in SC2) with warping units in. If you harass a Terran he will only feel it in the end, and he can just call mules down if he needs that extra resources. Different game, doubt that will ever change but harassement is simply not as effective, this is bar early blue flame hellion drops which are ofcourse very deadly. The Risk/Reward for harassement/drops is just different. I doubt that harassement will become much more stronger then it is now and it is a bit offputting because of that, but perhaps it is not supposed to be part of SC2, after all it is a different game.
^Blindrawr: there is little to no incentive to do cute tricks as they usually are a huge investment, for example a speed warp prism with hts in it has good potential right?But the investment is huge and the gain from it will be little while the risk is even larger.
My beef with sc2 is the storyline and all the dumb excuses they make to shove out all the good units with the obsolete and useless kind of statement that our vultures in bw are leaking radioactive stuff so that is a good reason to take out a unit that is so effective in bw strategy . Not only they screw up the storyline with saving sarah if you guys actually remembered in bw Sarah was the queen bitch of the universe not only she killed Fenix and admiral duke in one single mission she wipe the whole ued forces and with raynor swearing to kill her off one day it's just comical how the sc2 team switch the storyline and upside down and make it a happy ending compared to bw apocalyptic setting .
Now when i think about it sc2 is a serious disappointment to us who have experience bw first hand not only dustin bowder took out the fun out of the game he made it so accessible and blizzard feeding the whole mindless community with the esport propaganda I am just seriously lucky that bw doesn't have lots of mindless drones to contend with and if you guys actually remembered the lead designer was the one who said the sc2 ENGINE CAN DO ANYTHING but i doubt it can seriously all the lies and hopes they stir us up for this successor of the known bw it really kills me how they handle the franchise .
EPT
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