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On April 10 2011 13:12 jdseemoreglass wrote:
@Lalush
I like most of your analysis, however, note that in my testing the 11overpool IS a speedling build. It gets gas at the same time as the 14gas/14pool, and has a larvae advantage in comparison.
I agree that 11overpool in ZvT is not economical and ZvP is not safe. However in ZvZ I think it still has real potential, both in it's larvae advantage and in it's flexibility.
Yes but in your testing you don't build lings and you just keep building drones, am I right?
You have to realize that in a real game the income rate will be skewed in the 14gas/14pool build's favor for several minutes due to the fact that the other build has to produce lings and not drones.
I know it has a larva advantage. But that larva advantage won't be used on drones by anyone doing an abnormally quick pool/speed build. The point of those builds is to use the larva advantage to overrun your opponent with speedlings. Although, only an amateur doing a 14gas 13/14pool will get overrun by such a build.
If the game is to pan out according to your testing, the larva advantage zerg has to make drones with his larva inject. And then the build will end up exactly where I described it. Pushed back into its own base, with 0 clue if the opponent is using his next 6-7 larva on drones or lings, and with 0 clue if the opponent has a baneling's nest on the way or a roach warren -- or neither.
And that's basically where theory and practice diverge. Information is also a resource in SC2 =)
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On April 11 2011 08:04 onmach wrote:
Thanks for the response. I don't really lose to 2 rax very often, but I'll experiment with a practice partner to see for myself.
Excuse me for being overly harsh in my post. I haven't tried 11overpool speedling opening so maybe I'm talking out of my ass. But I somehow can't imagine the timings lining up nicely with such an early gas into speedling research, and with the need of taking an expansion, and then the larva from the inject all popping early and craving your resources simultaneously.
I will try it and see for myself before completely dismissing it.
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I have been using the 11 overpool in ZvZ for some time and it has gone from being my worst matchup (that used to make me rage) to being my best matchup.
I drone to 14 and right before my pool finishes I make my gas; that puts me on 13 supply so that I can immediately make a queen and six lings when the pool is done. This supply caps me on 18 and unfortunately I have to wait a larva before I can make the overlord. This means my minerals build up quite a bit, which I normally use to throw down a hatchery (sometimes I have tried skipping speed and going straight for a roach warren - depends what my 6 lings find in my opponent's base). The gas timing is 'normal' so I can opt for speed, banelings (with or without speed first), or roaches or whatever (the extra hatch also allows for mass ling all in). Lately I've just been trying Nestea's routine of getting 24 drones and then just pumping roaches and trying to kill my opponent with them, possibly including a fast +1.
The other thing I like about this build is that I don't have to worry about 6 pools. I don't drone scout at all in ZvZ anymore. I mean, I didn't always lose to them or anything, but now it's not even close :D
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On April 11 2011 08:11 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:12 jdseemoreglass wrote:
@Lalush
I like most of your analysis, however, note that in my testing the 11overpool IS a speedling build. It gets gas at the same time as the 14gas/14pool, and has a larvae advantage in comparison.
I agree that 11overpool in ZvT is not economical and ZvP is not safe. However in ZvZ I think it still has real potential, both in it's larvae advantage and in it's flexibility. Yes but in your testing you don't build lings and you just keep building drones, am I right? You have to realize that in a real game the income rate will be skewed in the 14gas/14pool build's favor for several minutes due to the fact that the other build has to produce lings and not drones. I know it has a larva advantage. But that larva advantage won't be used on drones by anyone doing an abnormally quick pool/speed build. The point of those builds is to use the larva advantage to overrun your opponent with speedlings. Although, only an amateur doing a 14gas 13/14pool will get overrun by such a build. If the game is to pan out according to your testing, the larva advantage zerg has to make drones with his larva inject. And then the build will end up exactly where I described it. Pushed back into its own base, with 0 clue if the opponent is using his next 6-7 larva on drones or lings, and with 0 clue if the opponent has a baneling's nest on the way or a roach warren -- or neither. And that's basically where theory and practice diverge. Information is also a resource in SC2 =)
Since this is the second time you misstated my actual testing methods, I'm going to have to assume you didn't thoroughly read the OP. It is incorrect that in the testing I build only drones, in fact I included a whole section entitled "Real world application." In this testing, both the 14 pool and 11 overpool had reached identical worker counts before producing zerglings, negating the argument that the build has to produce drones instead of lings to "catch-up," unless you are referring solely to the 100 mineral disadvantage, which is actually the trade off for additional larvae. The net result was an increase in the maximum number of speedlings for the 11overpool, disproving the claim that you "can't spend your larvae anyway."
I can accept disagreement as to the viability of different builds or whether you prefer minerals to larvae, but I would hope a blue poster wouldn't comment without thoroughly reading the OP, because it might unfairly influence future reader's opinions. Here is the section I am referring to:
Real-world application and comparison
In order to test my theory of the relative advantages of 11overpool vs 14pool in speedling/baneling builds, I set up an experiment. I played repeated tests according to the following general guidelines:
@1:40 - Geyser
@16 drones - pump 100% zerglings/overlords
@100 gas - Metabolic Boost
@50-100 gas - Baneling Nest
Continue pumping speedlings and spending 100% of remaining gas on banelings
In attempting to maximize the use of the 11overpool's larvae count while putting all available resources to their best use, I believe I have developed perhaps the most efficient baneling build possible for Zerg. I am fairly confident that no other build can produce a greater amount of banelings and speedlings in a similar timeframe, but I am open to any challengers. 
In adapting this build to a fast baneling bust, it also surpassed the current Liquipedia entry for baneling rush, which is very similar but has some small obvious errors in the ordering and timing.
Best Results @ 6:00:
14Pool
15 drones, 27.04 Speedlings, 7 banelings, 5 overlords
11Overpool - encRoach ZvZ build
15 drones, 33.42 Speedlings, 7 banelings, 5 overlords
Build Orders for encRoach Baneling Openings:
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvZ, Speedling heavy or most aggressive:
10 Extractor Trick
11 Overlord
11 Spawning Pool
11 Geyser (immediately after drone)
15 Queen
17 Overlord
@100 gas - Speed, remove 1 worker from gas
18+ Mass speedlings
21 Overlord
@75 gas - Baneling nest
26 Overlord
-Continue pumping speedlings and spend 100% of gas on banelings.
ZvT, baneling heavy, or fastest bust, 5:20 target:
Same as above, EXCEPT:
@100 gas, do not remove worker from gas
@50 gas, baneling nest
Cut overlord at 26
Replays:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-196325.jpg)
This test confirmed that in ZvZ or a ZvT baneling bust, there is a slight advantage to going 11overpool when compared to 14pool due to the larvae advantage. This of course is a subjective assessment depending upon a players style and average expansion timing. As was expected, there were more minerals left unspent by the 14pool build. Therefore, with a differing build, it would be possible to divert minerals into gas for more banelings. I will not attempt to compare the relative worth of a baneling to speedlings here since that is a highly subjective and situational assessment. However, it must be noted that this added flexibility of additional banelings must be contrasted with the 11overpool's flexibility of creating a higher number of either drones or speedlings if your opponent goes for play which negates banelings such as roach openings.
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Have you tested this in team games?
While I understand your focus on the economical impact, the reason 10 pool is used almost on a constant manner in team games is that is the rush is one of the fastest early pressure + sling push before 5 minutes. Suppose I use 11 OP instead of 10P, have you tested how much time will my initial 6 lings for an early push be delayed? I know that 12DE, then pool delays them by like 20 seconds which makes your initial 6 ling rush useless.
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I got so excited when I saw lalush had posted in this thread, but what a letdown in him not fully reading through the ZvZ applications of overpool.
At any rate, good work OP, I will glady try this stuff out on the ladder today and edit this post with some of my personal experiences.
Regardless of what I think when I come back, I love the analysis here and the conclusions drawn from it. Overpool sounds like the gateway to a super flexible early game, easily transitioning in to ling/bling or even some 1-base roach play due to the mineral > larva conversion.
Thanks OP.
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Could someone be so kind and explain to me why this whole discussion is based on table that clearly is not accurate?
I have opened that table multiple times, I have went throught those charts and I simply cant figure how those numbers could be accurate, no matter how much I would like to trust them. Basic idea of this thread may be right, but so far whole discussion about it is based on not accurate and not checked table which simply doesnt make sense. Its like deciding the outcome of this "study" and the making the study to look like what maker wants it to show.
So wheres the evidence? Lets see...
All builds starts with same 7th drone, then 8th drone... yet 3 first builds have 5 more minerals. This should have already alerted people and maker of that table to realize hes evidence and test is not going where it should be, table that measures 6 minutes in 20 second intervals having 5 minerals mistake at the first 40 seconds of it. That means the lack of runs of each build is way too small for it to be any kind of evidence and as such faster start/movement/execution may cause huge differences at the 6 minute side of the table, also human error is way too big if even first levels are not scaling, how can later levels be when time and errors multiplies?.
Also minerals gathered by drones are not even close to be equal within same time periods. One good example is 12 pool DET and period 1:20 to 2:20 during that time that build goes from 11.65 drones to 11.24. Minimum drone count being 10. Ok so theres at minimum 10 drones mining for whole time. How come during that minute and those time intervals resource income is as follows: 1:20 =118 (11.65 drones), 1:40=135(11 drones) 2:00=170(10 drones)!!! 2:20=125(11.24 drones). Topping 170 minerals in 20 seconds when dronecount is at 10!! Doesnt alarm anyone? Guy goes from 11.24 (12th drone coming) and 10 mining down to 10 by pool and extractor, yet making more money than was making while having more drones, yet after that when he gets more hes income drops. Umm to me this doesnt make sense, hes not building lords, hes not using drones to make buildings, hes saving for overlord, but that doesnt reduce drone count, so why when he spends 100 minerals to make 2 drones according to table hes income drops by 55? Thats 1 drone more... where did it go?
Same happens with pretty much all builds, which only means theres problem at calculation of these mineral amounts. Same happens all over the board with other mistakes, rendering these kind of tables without large enought pool for each and every build, pretty much useless.
I am sorry that I signed up to give this kind of negative response, much apreciate all the hard work you have done but this is simply one of the things where mistakes costs us Zergs a lot in focusing to wrong stuff. I hope someone puts their time to study these things one build at a time to remove the affect of human error and can give us accurate data, specially with how much resources each drone has produced, and thus eliminating these kind of big errors in stuff that should be clearly visible to everyone.
Just look and actually study the numbers and see yourself.
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Depends how he measured Blackwolf. If he clicked the mineral patches every 20 seconds in the replay to see how much was left then the error won't be "huge" as you say. It'll stay roughly at +-5 (depending on when he pauses the replay).
I did re-test 11overpool into 16 drones though using his build. Didn't get the same results as the table.
11overpool after 4:00 -- 1540 minerals.
14gas/13pool (forgot 14gas/14pool, i always do 13pool) after 4:00 -- 1735
OH, I just remembered i played my normal build and didn't make 16 drones.
14gas/14pool after 4:00 -- 1800
Test conducted on Scrap station.
On March 19 2011 04:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Build Orders for encRoach Baneling Openings:
[spoiler]
ZvZ, Speedling heavy or most aggressive:
10 Extractor Trick
11 Overlord
11 Spawning Pool
11 Geyser (immediately after drone)
15 Queen
17 Overlord
@100 gas - Speed, remove 1 worker from gas
Comments: In a real game, after putting down 11 spawning pool, you don't have enough minerals to make a drone and put down your gas at 1:40. When I tested the build I built a gas at 10, although at 1:43 because i mistimed it slightly and then a drone.
If you want to reverse the order, gas would have to be put down around 1:45-1:46, or later.
There is a bit of larva downtime after putting down the 11pool. You will have 3 larva for 5-10 ingame seconds depending on whether you drone before gas or drone after gas.
15 queen comments: In a real game, if you want to start your queen immediately after pool finishes, you have to 14 queen. Making a drone first, will give you a downtime of 5-6 ingame seconds before the queen can be started. Larva downtime of the 15th drone compared to 15 queen build (~10-11 ingame seconds).
I redid the 11overpool test again to improve execution and ended up at 1550 minerals @ 4:00.
Perhaps with your method (of not putting down the buildings when they have be put down) I'd stand to gain 15-20 minerals more (being generous). That does not explain the 100+ mineral discrepancy between your results and mine.
*Edit: I didn't remoe 1 worker from gas in my testing. Since I assumed he didn't either when making the tables. I kept drones mining on gas while testing both builds.
*Edit2: Removing 1drone from gas would give approx 35-40 more minerals. Still a discrepancy.
What I suspect: OP removed all drones from gas @100 gas when he tested 11overpool, while removing none while testing 14gas/14pool.
*edit 3: Continuing to build drones after 16 drones would not have explained the discrepancy either. Since the 17th drone finishes at around ~3:40.
*edit 4: Using your build order and replicating it as best as I could (making gas at 1:45...), making drones as fast as I could (17th drone finished at 3:45 and 18th drone finished at 3:47). I managed to squeeze it up to 1590 minerals @ 4:00.
I doubt it could be made much better. Without the 17th and 18th drone, it'd be 1570 minerals.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
@Lalush, could you please check how the (idra's zvp opener) 15gas/14pool compares to the ones mentioned by you. Larva/mineral advantage over 14gas/14pool?
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Idra most commonly opens 14pool and ~15gas.
And that's probably the most common opener at the moment in ZvP (basically the only I use). The gas first into pool openers have gone slightly out of style, except with a few players like morrow (who i saw deviate from his 14gas 14pool for the first time vs MC at dreamhack invitational, in favor of a 14pool in one of the games).
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 14 2011 11:49 LaLuSh wrote:
Idra most commonly opens 14pool and ~15gas.
And that's probably the most common opener at the moment in ZvP (basically the only I use). The gas first into pool openers have gone slightly out of style, except with a few players like morrow (who i saw deviate from his 14gas 14pool for the first time vs MC at dreamhack invitational, in favor of a 14pool in one of the games).
@Lalush, sorry to ask you here but what about on long maps where the protoss is most likely going to forge expand, do you recommend going 14pool/16hatch (delayed hatch if pylon blocked) or would you still suggest 14pool/15gas is the most optimal build?
Thank you for the wealth of knowledge you provide on these forums  .
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On April 14 2011 12:00 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 11:49 LaLuSh wrote:
Idra most commonly opens 14pool and ~15gas.
And that's probably the most common opener at the moment in ZvP (basically the only I use). The gas first into pool openers have gone slightly out of style, except with a few players like morrow (who i saw deviate from his 14gas 14pool for the first time vs MC at dreamhack invitational, in favor of a 14pool in one of the games). @Lalush, sorry to ask you here but what about on long maps where the protoss is most likely going to forge expand, do you recommend going 14pool/16hatch (delayed hatch if pylon blocked) or would you still suggest 14pool/15gas is the most optimal build? Thank you for the wealth of knowledge you provide on these forums .
If you scout forge expand from protoss and intend to play straight up macro you don't need to mine gas with 3 drones. I usually use 1-2 drones and get delayed speed or no speed upgrade at all.
Just mine the gas slowly for an eventual lair.
But playing macro vs FE toss is stupid in itself, so what does it matter what build you use ^^ I don't think the small variations matter much in the end.
Idra seems to prefer the fast hatchery whenever he can get it. I prefer getting the queens on time.
A matter of preference. I just haven't got the 14pool/16hatch timings mapped out as well in my mind, so I stay away from it.
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Just to clarify due to some confusion in this thread. I have been assuming people are following from my previous threads where I detail all of my methods and provide replays of each test.
To come up with the mineral counts in the table, I used the replay bar on pause to reach exact 30 second intervals. Then to calculate minerals mined, I used the following formula:
Minerals spent tab + Current minerals owned - 700 initial starting minerals = total resources mined.
Drones in production were prorated depending upon their percentage of completion.
All of the data in the initial table came from maximizing economy and producing no army or buildings besides a spawning pool, queen, and gas. After repeated tests, I used the data from the replay which had the highest efficiency and discarded the rest.
The data at the second half of the OP follows the build orders I provided for speedling/baneling play, and is therefore distinct in it's production and gas mining, and therefore won't align perfectly with the data in the table.
I have replays available of every test by request, though they are from an older patch.
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thumbs up Jd,
in Comparison for the crowd i go ~ 1775 ressources collected 150minerals 100 gas unspendt @4.00, havin a spinecrawler against 6poolern cause i try it in 4v4s
but, im fixing my problems with this build by getting 2 extractors harvesting for banelings and 7minutes lair tech by getting 2nd extractor at the 5.20;
because of the fact when ur attacking with the 11pool banes, the fights will be in his eco, no matter of his single speedlings try forcing banes to explode, u just need enough gas to constantly morph 2 banes while u stress with the later speedlings, after bane-chess i Defend my expo with a pack of roaches and lings scouting his roachcount and putting down a spire for the pre-Infestor timing kill ;>
if he will go all in - fine save up some banes
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Awesome writeup, thanks for all the hard work. I'm definitely going to try and incorporate this into my gameplay, and maybe 2v2s as well.
One note tho, perhaps a second hatch would be more viable if it's positioned correctly.
My idea is to place it at the top of your ramp, and use it to partially wall it. Then, correctly placed spines (using creep from the spawned hatchery) would then give zerg a total wall off, something no zerg is able to do normally.
Maybe this could even be placed at chokes such as shattered temple, where instead of early expanding you early hatch at the choke, giving you more larvae and the opportunity for a safer expand against early toss/terran agression (i dont see this helping as much with zerg).
Actually I think I'm going to try this out then post a discussion thread...
Either way great writeup, thanks a ton! :D
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Awesome thread, well thought out and well presented!
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you're a fucking god. I hope you can write more stuff like this, love the amount of research done. still going over data. Also do you plan on doing more zerg opening research? mind going over morrow's gas first build?
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Might not be related but what about the hatch first builds? Which one is the most efficient (in larvae and/or resources)? 14hatch/pool or 15 or 16 or something else (11 -.-)?
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this post is so fucking awesome!
new home away from home
ty op for all the work and effort, really appreciated
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EPT
