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On March 20 2011 22:34 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 15:25 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So this thread finally caps out at two pages and officially dies. I go to check out the threads that are burying this one. First I glance at a thread proposing basically a carrier rush. I decide to skip ahead and open up the next one. In the OP, it is literally suggested that you build a hatchery in your opponent's base, cancel it, build an evo chamber on the left-over creep, and wait for it to die, so that you can scout with broodlings. I was trying to determine whether there was some elaborate troll going on before I proceeded to read through 3 pages of debate regarding whether an overlord scout costs 100 or 200 minerals since you need to build another one to replace it. Finally, I open one more thread. It is literally someone typing ebonics in order to use the word "pimp" as an acronym for macro.
I want to officially apologize to TL for any times that I defended the SC2 strategy forums. I used to be insulted by the elitism of people bashing a whole section on this site. I'm sorry guys, I literally had no idea. I promise I will never commit the sin again of defending the indefensible.
There's...nothing to discuss. Don't take everything so personnally. Your last thread was a good idea but I was personnally put off by how you reacted to any criticism. Now that no one is arguing with you you should be happy. I don't understand what you want, 10 pages of people congratulating you?
No, in the past he was defending the strategy forum as a viable place to come and discuss builds and strats in a mature manner. He's simply pointing out that he's taken a look around, and he's apologizing for his defense.
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On March 20 2011 15:25 jdseemoreglass wrote:
So this thread finally caps out at two pages and officially dies. I go to check out the threads that are burying this one. First I glance at a thread proposing basically a carrier rush. I decide to skip ahead and open up the next one. In the OP, it is literally suggested that you build a hatchery in your opponent's base, cancel it, build an evo chamber on the left-over creep, and wait for it to die, so that you can scout with broodlings. I was trying to determine whether there was some elaborate troll going on before I proceeded to read through 3 pages of debate regarding whether an overlord scout costs 100 or 200 minerals since you need to build another one to replace it. Finally, I open one more thread. It is literally someone typing ebonics in order to use the word "pimp" as an acronym for macro.
I want to officially apologize to TL for any times that I defended the SC2 strategy forums. I used to be insulted by the elitism of people bashing a whole section on this site. I'm sorry guys, I literally had no idea. I promise I will never commit the sin again of defending the indefensible.
I'd like you to answer my question a bit after this post, but also bumping for the reaasons you mention.
I really hope the mods just start teamp- or perma-banning these idiots instead of warning them.
It's one thing to use the [L] tag, and make a shitty post but at least try to self-segregate yourself from the higher level discussions. It's quite another to be like "hey, I'm a gold player, but I'm high level, and I know this will work in the GSL against MC because he has never seen an offensive evolution chamber before."
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Would you be willing to have a look at earlier pools as well?
I'd be interested to know the economic gain/loss from 7pool vs 6 pool, etc etc as compared to traditional openings. Perhaps there is a nugget in there?
I just watched a Junwi v Huk game yesterday where he 7pooled huk and ended up with a 90 food advantage. certainly it wasn't only due to the 7 pool (which did no physical damage due to forge), but the idea that it's possible to build up a 90 food advantage (200 to 110) by 15-18 minutes off a 7 pool opening seems pretty interesting.
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What is this? a PhD dissertation?
User was temp banned for this post.
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How many times did you repeat each build order to obtain those stats?
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Amazing analyses, thanks so much for the hard work encRoach, I've followed several of your threads and they are very helpful, thanks for taking your time to share this.
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Informative and an really interesting read. Good job!
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JD,
I read your first thread on the 11 overpool and enjoyed it a lot. This one is a great followup. It's a huge challenge to get calculations like these up to the point where they reflect everything a player needs a build to do. It seems like you're steadily working in that direction.
If you plan on continuing this work I have a request: I think it would be great to look at how gas timings affect the production of the builds. This would probably be easiest for the 11 overpool build, since gas always comes after the pool. At what point does delaying gas not affect your production significantly anymore? Can you actually get it earlier than 1:40 with minimal penalty? Or if not, can delaying to, say, 1:55 push your production even higher?
Doing this for the 14 pool build is harder because moving the gas to after the pool changes everything and brings in a big additional variable. But it looks like you're putting a lot of time into these, so comparing the various possibilities for gas timings on the "good" builds (i.e. not 10 pool, DET, etc) to see how much production you sacrifice for getting gas at a given time would be a great next step. Spanishiwa's no gas build is quite viable, at least at low masters, so pushing gas back to recover production isn't necessarily a bad idea.
Anyway, I look forward to the next post, whatever it may be.
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Very very interesting post and a good read!
You discussed pool first builds indeep in this topic, but do you have any plans to compare different hatch first (timings) with each other?
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This is a very deep analysis indeed. Thank you for this!
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11 pool seems perfectly valid in cheese builds. Good players will probably scout it and assume some sort of ling based cheese though. Especially if you do it multiple times to the same guy.
Not a fan of the inbase hatch, judging from the replays you float gas in one of them and cant even afford to spend all your larvae. Maybe just make one queen rather than two? and thats an awfull lot of spinecrawlers.
It has some merit in the fact that you can produce alot of zerglings and i will have to applaud you for defending that half assed 4gate. In the one replay you pulled guys off gass it seemed much more potent, though i will have to question the amount of drones produced. If you intended to win the game with those lings, wouldnt halting production at a spesific drone count be better than preparing for an eventual expansion?
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I'm really intrigued by the in base hatch at 14 supply(just watched all of your replays), I can think of so many games where we end up needing a macro hatch anyways and to top it off you can setup such a nice wall in at the top of your ramp( would be a god send against these Terran clowns who open with 6+ hellions). Also I would be willing to bet I can saturate my natural faster using the inbase hatch strat than I would with my normal 14gas 14 pool ( expanding around 22 supply ). Has anyone else been working with this any? Something about it seems so solid to me in the early game. I mean you get creep to your natural right off, nice ramp block that can be removed when desired ( spinecrawler uproot ), can pump 3 queens at once if you suspect air, can quickly snap enough drones to saturate your natural once you gain map control, and lastly you can punish people so hard with mass lings early.
At any rate I think I'm going to play around with this some, very interesting stuff thanks for the writeup.
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This is the type of analysis that really helps me feel confident with different BOs. Don't worry about sub-par threads, just keep doing solid work and it'll absolutely benefit the community.
On April 09 2011 19:57 ray4ever wrote:
You discussed pool first builds indeep in this topic, but do you have any plans to compare different hatch first (timings) with each other?
It'd be great to see different hatch first BO's as well.
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Thanks alot man I really appreciate this. Ive been trying your inbase hatch build alot with good success recently. Thanks
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Wanted to add I tried the in base hatch in a few matches today ( I'm mid masters ) and it worked pretty well actually. Comparing the replays to my normal build it seems like I'm able to hit a nice timing where I can fully saturate my main with almost no risk so when I go to take my natural I'm just pumping units. I find it very hard to change openings though after playing 14gas 14pool ( 22 expand ) for so long so I end up playing kind of sloppy in the early stages of the mid game. At any rate I went 3-3 using in base hatchery, won a zvp zvt and zvz doing this .. could have some potential and it feels really solid against early game aggression.
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Thanks for all the research you put into this thread!
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OMFG wall of information brain on meltdown trying to read it... ahh! But no seriously good work on the data collection and graphs... well done!
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Thehitman Build:
12 pool, 17 queen, 16 drones into overlord, 18 nat hatchery, 18 extractor.
build 12 zerglings, lair, infestor pit. Mass zerglings and infestors, start ground armor as soon as you have half the infestor pit completed.
This is so far only viable against protoss 3 gate into base, 1 gate into base or 4 gate rush.
For 6 gate rush you need roaches and spine crawlers.
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I love threads like these -- especially your last one and this one. Please keep them coming. I think it's well thought out threads like these that constantly question all the "perfect" timings that makes us all better as players and observers. Thanks!
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This may seem like a basic question... but for those of us Noobs out there...
11 Overpool means.... ?
11 Overlord
Drone back to 11
11 Spawning Pool?
Am I right? Thanks for this info man. Really great stuff. =)
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EPT
