EPTA logical conclusion that for pool first builds, there are delayed advantages to having the pool earlier (more larvae). In other words, later pool is not necessarily better than earlier pool.
A Second Look at Zerg Openings - Page 2
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Drae
70 Posts
A logical conclusion that for pool first builds, there are delayed advantages to having the pool earlier (more larvae). In other words, later pool is not necessarily better than earlier pool. | ||
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skypig
United States237 Posts
In other words, if your opponent pressures you with any sort of early rush, you won't have the chance to benefit from that drone production advantage that your graph shows. I played a ZvZ yesterday where I tried the 11 overpool build, and my opponent did a later pool (probably 14). I lost the game almost instantly when I tried to get the drone advantage because my opponent just pumped lings from his hatch and ran over me...to survive, I would've had to pump lings just like he did, only my economy would be worse because I wouldn't get the chance to reach that drone production boost. A 14 pool gives you the 14 drones RIGHT AWAY, and if you choose to pump lings after that point, you will still have those 14 drones mining the whole time, which will give you a better economy versus someone that gets earlier pool/lings/queen because they will have less drones mining while they're defending your attack (unless they somehow use way less units to beat back your attack so they can make drones with the remaining larva; however this is risky at best, especially in ZvZ where your opponent can scout exactly what you're doing with his early scout drone). Any clarification is appreciated - thanks. Also thanks for putting so much work into analyzing the 11 Overpool strategy - I will definitely use it if you can clarify how it can be effective versus an opponent who knows its limitations. | ||
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letmegopls
105 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:26 DaeWang790 wrote: Markwerf: What is your timing on your second overlord? Also, what is the timing of your ling speed in relation to the more commonly used 14 gas / 14 pool build? Second overlord is made at 11 instead of 9 so would be about 20 secs later. Gas collection starts about a minute later then a normal 14 gas 14 pool build so speedling tech is also about a minute later. I've never really understood why the 14 gas 14 pool build became the norm lately in ZvP, I don't see what the point is of rushing lingspeed so much. Sure you need it reasonably quickly so you don't lose to stalker kiting or 4 gates but starting it ASAP when the pool finishes seems excessive. All i ever see zergs use it that early for is a bit of easier map control.. From what I see more zergs are already getting gas a bit later though, going for 14 pool 16 gas for example just to get those extra few minerals (40 or so i estimate). | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
The differences in larvae can be seen from the graphs to equalize at the 4:20 mark. I'm not sure how quickly a rush can come, but I would be surprised if it was before 4:20. I'm not sure on the timing of a 6pool so I'm not sure if it's an issue in that situation, but in every other, both builds will be able to equalize in drone count before pressure can arrive. You can note from the testing I did 11overpool vs 14pool that both builds had the same number of drones once I started producing zerglings, so pressure interfering with economy shouldn't be an issue in that regard. For people asking about specific build orders for 11overpool: I did provide a general build order, but it was in a spoiler so maybe people missed it. I found it was usually best to build around 15 or 16 drones in order to have enough minerals to spend constant larvae injects on lings and banelings. If anyone else has any questions, feel free to ask. And thanks everyone for the positive feedback! | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:01 jdseemoreglass wrote: For people asking about specific build orders for 11overpool: I did provide a general build order, but it was in a spoiler so maybe people missed it. I found it was usually best to build around 15 or 16 drones in order to have enough minerals to spend constant larvae injects on lings and banelings. If anyone else has any questions, feel free to ask. And thanks everyone for the positive feedback! I saw the build orders for your TvT and TvZ aggression openings but I didn't see a 11 overpool build including expoing, which I assume you used for testing the income and drone numbers. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:19 Markwerf wrote: I saw the build orders for your TvT and TvZ aggression openings but I didn't see a 11 overpool build including expoing, which I assume you used for testing the income and drone numbers. None of my testing for this thread included an expansion. I wanted to start off as simple as possible. If you are planning to expand quickly, I would suggest going with 14pool instead of 11overpool because the extra minerals will allow you to get the hatch faster and defend it easier imo. As I explained in the OP, builds that require an expansion are much more resource intensive than larvae, and so pool builds with more early resources should be favored in such cases. | ||
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DaeWang790
United States74 Posts
On March 20 2011 03:57 Markwerf wrote: Second overlord is made at 11 instead of 9 so would be about 20 secs later. Gas collection starts about a minute later then a normal 14 gas 14 pool build so speedling tech is also about a minute later. I've never really understood why the 14 gas 14 pool build became the norm lately in ZvP, I don't see what the point is of rushing lingspeed so much. Sure you need it reasonably quickly so you don't lose to stalker kiting or 4 gates but starting it ASAP when the pool finishes seems excessive. All i ever see zergs use it that early for is a bit of easier map control.. From what I see more zergs are already getting gas a bit later though, going for 14 pool 16 gas for example just to get those extra few minerals (40 or so i estimate). I guess I really meant to ask when you get your 3rd overlord. You didn't specify it in the build order you had presented. I personally go with the 14gas/pool simply because I use it in most matchups. Also, it allows for cheese if the situation calls for it. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
I want to officially apologize to TL for any times that I defended the SC2 strategy forums. I used to be insulted by the elitism of people bashing a whole section on this site. I'm sorry guys, I literally had no idea. I promise I will never commit the sin again of defending the indefensible. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:25 jdseemoreglass wrote: I think what's worst is the thread that is discussing how 10pool is a viable (and good) build for ALL match-ups, based upon personal opinion/experience, whereas you are here doing a solid experiment showing that 10pool is actually the worst opener to do (unless you're cheesing, but he's recommending doing an economic 10pool against T and P).So this thread finally caps out at two pages and officially dies. I go to check out the threads that are burying this one. First I glance at a thread proposing basically a carrier rush. I decide to skip ahead and open up the next one. In the OP, it is literally suggested that you build a hatchery in your opponent's base, cancel it, build an evo chamber on the left-over creep, and wait for it to die, so that you can scout with broodlings. I was trying to determine whether there was some elaborate troll going on before I proceeded to read through 3 pages of debate regarding whether an overlord scout costs 100 or 200 minerals since you need to build another one to replace it. Finally, I open one more thread. It is literally someone typing ebonics in order to use the word "pimp" as an acronym for macro. I'd just like to say thanks for posting this thread, I find it very helpful (even though I'm a 15 hatch kinda guy myself), and it's definitely interesting to see the comparison between the different openers. I always thought that the earlier pool --> earlier queen could have some advantages over the seemingly more greedy later pools, but it's great to see the numbers presented this way and so clearly to confirm this. I also liked the analysis of the in-base hatch, although could you add numbers comparing the in-base hatch w/ no gas to a 11 overpool w/ no gas? Also, do you have any future plans for doing a similar comparison with standard hatch first openings (15 hatch 15 pool is my favorite so I'd be interested in comparing that with 15h/14p, 14h/13p, and 14h/14p)? | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
I suppose the takeaway from this is: -ZvP: Opening 11 overpool 18 hatchery is probably the way to go. Thought I'd have to do some testing comparing it to say a 14 pool 15 hatchery (I know you said no comparing it to FE for a variety of reasons, but I feel those reasons are nullified if you go pool first) -ZvT: Like you said, you should probably just learn how to safeguard a 15 hatch. -ZvZ: Do the 11 overpool build if you're looking for the early victory. Is there anything you currently are experimenting with now? A new build order perhaps? Maybe it's built around banes or something? I'd love to hear what's going on with all of that; since obviously the 11 overpool is such a nifty start. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:25 jdseemoreglass wrote: So this thread finally caps out at two pages and officially dies. I go to check out the threads that are burying this one. First I glance at a thread proposing basically a carrier rush. I decide to skip ahead and open up the next one. In the OP, it is literally suggested that you build a hatchery in your opponent's base, cancel it, build an evo chamber on the left-over creep, and wait for it to die, so that you can scout with broodlings. I was trying to determine whether there was some elaborate troll going on before I proceeded to read through 3 pages of debate regarding whether an overlord scout costs 100 or 200 minerals since you need to build another one to replace it. Finally, I open one more thread. It is literally someone typing ebonics in order to use the word "pimp" as an acronym for macro. I want to officially apologize to TL for any times that I defended the SC2 strategy forums. I used to be insulted by the elitism of people bashing a whole section on this site. I'm sorry guys, I literally had no idea. I promise I will never commit the sin again of defending the indefensible. It is an unfortunate characteristic of forums that the amount of replies in a thread are often dependant on how many people disagree with you and not how many agree with you. Your previous thread had a shitload of comments because many people disagreed, flamed, bashed and what not. This thread however is quite accurate in it's data but not really new either because it's a recap of what has been said before. That basically means noone argues and you get almost strictly positive replies but very few of them at the same time. People are more vocal about what they hate then about what they like unfortunately... Number of replies shouldn't be the measuring stick for the quality of a thread but unfortunately replies are the only thing that keeps a thread floating at the top. The strategy forum can only be improved by implementing a rating system imo where good threads instead of threads with lots of replies stay at the top. Or mods would have to get alot more active in removing crappy threads.... | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:25 jdseemoreglass wrote: So this thread finally caps out at two pages and officially dies. I go to check out the threads that are burying this one. First I glance at a thread proposing basically a carrier rush. I decide to skip ahead and open up the next one. In the OP, it is literally suggested that you build a hatchery in your opponent's base, cancel it, build an evo chamber on the left-over creep, and wait for it to die, so that you can scout with broodlings. I was trying to determine whether there was some elaborate troll going on before I proceeded to read through 3 pages of debate regarding whether an overlord scout costs 100 or 200 minerals since you need to build another one to replace it. Finally, I open one more thread. It is literally someone typing ebonics in order to use the word "pimp" as an acronym for macro. I want to officially apologize to TL for any times that I defended the SC2 strategy forums. I used to be insulted by the elitism of people bashing a whole section on this site. I'm sorry guys, I literally had no idea. I promise I will never commit the sin again of defending the indefensible. =) well replacing overlords is expensive, 100 for the initial and then 100 for the replacement overlord and then 100 for renewing the sac'ed one .. that's 300 minerals oO. I'd be very interested in analysis of in base hatch play .. my experience tells me that this is a very safe and economic build (with major benefits beyond the 6'00 minute mark), however i am a pretty bad player, so it would be interesting to do the numbers (e.g. "1 queen early 3rd hatch at nat" vs "2 queen late 3rd at exe" vs "delayed queens + instant 3rd at nat"). Also it seems to me it is possible to delay the pool even further because your main is easier to defend .. Can we agree on a simple standardized testing scheme (incl. 1 scout and speed timing) ? | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
maybe an 11 pool would be slightly better over having more creep and queens on the map. Hmmm. Ponders. | ||
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Davoud
Sweden38 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:25 jdseemoreglass wrote: So this thread finally caps out at two pages and officially dies. I go to check out the threads that are burying this one. First I glance at a thread proposing basically a carrier rush. I decide to skip ahead and open up the next one. In the OP, it is literally suggested that you build a hatchery in your opponent's base, cancel it, build an evo chamber on the left-over creep, and wait for it to die, so that you can scout with broodlings. I was trying to determine whether there was some elaborate troll going on before I proceeded to read through 3 pages of debate regarding whether an overlord scout costs 100 or 200 minerals since you need to build another one to replace it. Finally, I open one more thread. It is literally someone typing ebonics in order to use the word "pimp" as an acronym for macro. I want to officially apologize to TL for any times that I defended the SC2 strategy forums. I used to be insulted by the elitism of people bashing a whole section on this site. I'm sorry guys, I literally had no idea. I promise I will never commit the sin again of defending the indefensible. There's...nothing to discuss. Don't take everything so personnally. Your last thread was a good idea but I was personnally put off by how you reacted to any criticism. Now that no one is arguing with you you should be happy. I don't understand what you want, 10 pages of people congratulating you? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
I don't really have any questions, but I am slightly surprised at the findings regarding in-base 14hatch. It's definitely something to consider. Actually, at least insofar as I can tell, wouldn't the tradeoff between 12 pool and 14pool be worth taking in almost every situation? | ||
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Flavalanche
United States164 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
So this thread finally caps out at two pages and officially dies. I go to check out the threads that are burying this one. First I glance at a thread proposing basically a carrier rush. I decide to skip ahead and open up the next one. In the OP, it is literally suggested that you build a hatchery in your opponent's base, cancel it, build an evo chamber on the left-over creep, and wait for it to die, so that you can scout with broodlings. I was trying to determine whether there was some elaborate troll going on before I proceeded to read through 3 pages of debate regarding whether an overlord scout costs 100 or 200 minerals since you need to build another one to replace it. Finally, I open one more thread. It is literally someone typing ebonics in order to use the word "pimp" as an acronym for macro. Sadly that works. Well against terran too. Block my wall in with a proxy hatch, cancel and put an evo. Rush with a 9 pool or earlier pool build that was delayed JUST a bit. Cheese and win. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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