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On August 18 2011 05:08 BinxyBrown wrote:
you probably dont have the minerals to spend the larva afterwards, or you sit longer before making pool because you have 3 drones while waiting for the money to double extractor trick 2 drones, thats 150 minerals before the overlord.
Correct, you have to do the first Extractor Trick at about 100 minerals rather than waiting for 150, or you'll hit 3 larva (which you want to avoid). Leave that drone as an extractor until you do the second extractor trick, and then cancel both extractors.
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On August 18 2011 05:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Actually 12 det overpool gets the same amount of larvae, but 10 (are you sure about this timing?) seconds later.
Here's what I know on timings.
If I am as flawless as I am able to get, then 12Overpool-DET almost--but not quite--doesn't waste larva (maybe one second of three larva after the pool goes down and I don't quite have 50 minerals for a drone).
The extra drone costs essentially 61 minerals (50 + 6 for cancelled extractor + 5 for missed mining cycle). 61 minerals is...roughly one drone mining cycle for 12 drones.
One drone mining cycle is...(researches) about 7 seconds.
This means for 12Overpool-DET the pool goes down 7 seconds later, but one extra larva is used.
In the mean time, 11 Overpool would get the Pool 7 seconds earlier, but use one less larva in this time. A hatchery produces larva once every *doublechecks* 15 seconds. So...15-7 = 8 wasted larva regen time.
(My mistake--I was mixing the larva regen time (15) with the Drone build time (17)--which is how I got to 17-7 = 10 in that post).
So...ok, this is more like +0.7 - 0.55 = +0.15. (11 Overpool gets more larvae, but it's still definitely not a larva gap of 2).
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On August 18 2011 05:49 metroid composite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 05:16 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Actually 12 det overpool gets the same amount of larvae, but 10 (are you sure about this timing?) seconds later.
Here's what I know on timings. If I am as flawless as I am able to get, then 12Overpool-DET almost--but not quite--doesn't waste larva (maybe one second of three larva after the pool goes down and I don't quite have 50 minerals for a drone). The extra drone costs essentially 61 minerals (50 + 6 for cancelled extractor + 5 for missed mining cycle). 61 minerals is...roughly one drone mining cycle for 12 drones. One drone mining cycle is...(researches) about 7 seconds. This means for 12Overpool-DET the pool goes down 7 seconds later, but one extra larva is used. In the mean time, 11 Overpool would get the Pool 7 seconds earlier, but use one less larva in this time. A hatchery produces larva once every *doublechecks* 15 seconds. So...15-7 = 8 wasted larva regen time. (My mistake--I was mixing the larva regen time (15) with the Drone build time (17)--which is how I got to 17-7 = 10 in that post). So...ok, this is more like +0.7 - 0.55 = +0.15. (11 Overpool gets more larvae, but it's still definitely not a larva gap of 2).
as pointed out, the larvae advantage seems "computed" by calculating-in the slightly earlier inject over time. In real games the minor income difference will be less significant compared to pool timing .
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I always thought 12 pool DET was a bit off in timings, oh well
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in my own personal testing of 11 overpool and 12 overpool DET
the build order optimizer shows them being very equal
but in my testing of replays, i do both builds and see which one has more larva/minerals/stuff at the 4 minute mark. the 12overpool DET has about 100 more minerals and 1 less larva
i dont know what is causing this. i dont think im making mistakes in either build, i try to do them perfectly each time
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Hm, did a couple practice runs comparing...
12overpool DET
and...
9 overlord, 12 pool
The latter was consistently ahead by a small margin in-practice (like...pool 2 seconds earlier).
This could just be me not being very good, though, what with 9 OL, 12 pool being a lot easier to execute (I'm like...diamond on the NA server, I guess? So yes, there are probably people who can cancel extractors faster than I)
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Hi,
And, what for 13pool and 15pool reach mineral/larvea gain?
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I'm glad you cleared that up, I'm sick of hearing that 11p18h is the most economical pool-first when that simply isn't the case.
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I have played you many times before on NA, very good anzalysis.
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@OP 11 pool in ZvZ.. Sure you can't spend your resources if you're doing 1 base no tech but that is plain bronze.. If you're baneling all in, speedling expansion or ~16 drone roach warren off 14g14p you can easily have zero resources. Both the roach build and speedling expand struggle to get enough resources: resources are scarce, larvae is abundant!!! It's only with a no-expand baneling build that larvae is scarce and resources are abundant.
You basically have to invent 11pool vs 1414 and 11pool vs FE, play 200+ games vs GMs and supply replays of how it holds up against all the different playstyles before your recommendation has any legitimacy whatsoever. Not saying it's bad. Just saying it's completely undemonstrated and thus the recommendation has 0 grounding until it IS demonstrated. I'm also claiming that your claim that you can't spend resources is dead wrong (i.e. 17-19 supply roach warren, speedling expand, 1414 baneling all in a suspected hatchgaspool).
But I deeply appreciate your research. This is really the only criticism I can field for all that you've said.
Also 13h15p and 14h15p are the best if you don't get gas. In a realistic game you're putting 3 on gas and spending at least 100-100 on speed, all before 28/28. You're also -1 drone for a long time if you're scouting. With all this you can't even spend your larvae off 13h15p and the hatchery ceases to generate larvae. This is why I choose things like 15/15/17 15/16/16 etc etc even though it has less larvae. On the face of it, this seems to be more efficient because you can keep your money at 0-0 and have 0 larvae, but with 13h15p you can keep your money at 0-0 but have tonnes of larvae without the natural hatch generation being in use [because you've had to make at least 2 lings perhaps, -1 drone for scouting, and 3 drones on gas, and 100 mineral expenditure on speed, and possible need for spine of you're vsing reactor hellion or in ZvZ FE vs FE etc.]
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Hey OP, you are a serious nerdboss
That said, I Think it would be awesome if you could provide us some additional data.
You said that all builds have gas timings of 1:40, does this mean that all builds can research metabolic boost at the same time? I sense that trying to do this would perhaps conflict with the timing for when some of the early pool builds would prefer to build a queen - but maybe not. Perhaps you could rejig some of the gas timings to give us some practical ideas of how games may play out..
So, it would be cool to have some timestamp data for when a pool can go down, and when metabolic boost can be started (i.e. pool is up and we have 100 mineral/gas).
It would also be cool to see when a queen would pop with each build.
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EPT
