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wonderwall
New Zealand695 Posts
If you had Huk vs TLO and Jinro vs Tyler semifinals, would it really be a tournament with no "competitive edge" and "excitement" Something the NASL is going to try and sell is team rivalry and competition. While you might love that semifinal from a promoters prospective it might be less amicable. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:18 DeckOneBell wrote: It CAN be a team sport: See Shinhan Proleague. Just in this case it's not. The way it's run as a team sport is 5 1v1 matches, first team to 3 wins, more or less. My point was that it's not a team sport in itself. The only instance where it was sort of a team sport was when they still had 2v2s in the format. I mean sure teams are important, but ultimately Starcraft is a 1 on 1 game and in an actual game, it's every man for himself. All of the team-related stuff happens outside the actual game. A lot like Formula 1, for example. | ||
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Tipany
United States368 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:08 Turo wrote: Sort of a random point, but isn't starcraft more like tennis than baseball? Do you need to be on a team to play in the biggest tennis tournies? I think the most compelling point at the moment is that with a new game such as SC2, many talented players have not had the chance to break out onto the scene and get recognized and sponsored. Perhaps in the future it would be more reasonable when A-team and B-team quality players are more clearly separated, but at the moment there's just no way to justify leaving out that particular group of players. | ||
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dredd276
United States80 Posts
tl;dr: most NASL players without teams would probably get picked up by teams | ||
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Motion
Germany183 Posts
If one of the 5 Players could not continuous his play in the league, caused of illness or other circumstances, then the Team can bring in the sixth player. So the sixth player becomes more reasonable! | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:21 wonderwall wrote: Something the NASL is going to try and sell is team rivalry and competition. While you might love that semifinal from a promoters prospective it might be less amicable. Are you kidding? It would give sponsors the incentive to get as many of the best players as possible, and therefore increase the sponsorship money involved. If any one sponsor is restricted to only fielding five players, you're reducing their incentive to sponsor players in general. | ||
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Justanx
United States240 Posts
I look on it in a different light as well. What if the big teams from Korea wanted to branch out. Their teams roll a lot deeper then even TL or EG. Seeing as the Prize pools here are going to be big in the NASL as well. What is to stop them from stacking 12 guys into the mix as well. 3 big sponsored teams(36 players) that could in fact knock out smaller teams. Hypothetically wiping out whole brackets. I know this is a long shot or worse case scenario, but it could potentially happen. By keeping the numbers down to five this could stem the tide a little. The Olympics have a lot of solo events but the country competes as a whole. They only send their best. If the team manager has to make a decision and only send his top 5 then the other person or persons must understand. If one of the players get knocked out early then next season the teams sends another. | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:19 Fzero wrote: I think the basic problem is that we're used to the idea of either a completely team league (Proleague) or a completely individual league (Starleague). The NASL is trying to get the best of both worlds. They're trying to provide a place for 10 teams to field a team of players and get publicity and sponsorships WHILE the actual prizes and publicity is centered around individuals and the final 16 bracket. ...So, one set of rules makes sense for one portion of the competition, but not the other.. I don't think there's such a thing as a "best of both worlds" though. Because never, in any part of this, do team-based tactics come into play. In fact, having better players on your team doesn't help you at all, except maybe to get invited. The example's already been made, but again: If the choice was between a team of 10 players, all of which (this is a ridiculous example, but might apply for some Korean teams) have played in Code A or Code S of the GSL, or having only 5 of those players, but 5 players from another team, who has played in some NA clanwars and done decently, what's the superior option? In my opinion, it's having the 10 amazing players. It'll make for better games. | ||
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Eeeegor
Australia809 Posts
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:22 TheJoyBringer wrote: I think the most compelling point at the moment is that with a new game such as SC2, many talented players have not had the chance to break out onto the scene and get recognized and sponsored. Perhaps in the future it would be more reasonable when A-team and B-team quality players are more clearly separated, but at the moment there's just no way to justify leaving out that particular group of players. But this goes directly against making the tournament an invitation only tournament (1 qualification spot out of 50 does not count). I agree with you fully that there is a lot of undiscovered talent in SC2, but if their goal was to allow these players to play, then they should have had a way for them to qualify. Making the tournament an invite tournament guarantees that no undiscovered talent will participate. Preventing players without teams from participating does the same thing. On February 24 2011 07:24 Justanx wrote: I do understand the Team analogy doesn't exactly fit when compared to a Baseball team by the ability to substitute players. I look on it in a different light as well. What if the big teams from Korea wanted to branch out. Their teams roll a lot deeper then even TL or EG. Seeing as the Prize pools here are going to be big in the NASL as well. What is to stop them from stacking 12 guys into the mix as well. 3 big sponsored teams(36 players) that could in fact knock out smaller teams. Hypothetically wiping out whole brackets. I know this is a long shot or worse case scenario, but it could potentially happen. By keeping the numbers down to five this could stem the tide a little. The Olympics have a lot of solo events but the country competes as a whole. They only send their best. If the team manager has to make a decision and only send his top 5 then the other person or persons must understand. If one of the players get knocked out early then next season the teams sends another. The fact that the tournament is invite only will stop this. That's the thing, by making the tournament invite only, there's no need to have these arbitrary restrictions. They can simply choose five players per team if they feel like it. At the same time, the situation you're describing would be good for esports. If a few teams dominate the tournaments, sponsors would be forced to invest more to get top players from these top teams, leading to an injection of funds into esports. The situation you're describing is very hypothetical, but if it were to occur, it should be good for esports. Either way, there is no need for such an aribtrary rule before this occurs. | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:21 wonderwall wrote: Something the NASL is going to try and sell is team rivalry and competition. While you might love that semifinal from a promoters prospective it might be less amicable. Pretty sure those semifinals if broadcast on the same day would bring in a ridiculous amount of viewers to the stream, which is what matters for the people running the tournament. And it'll be amazing for TL's sponsors. Maybe not for the other teams' sponsors. | ||
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RivalryRedux
United States173 Posts
I would just like it if they would define themselves a bit better. I could see them wanting to make it super team centric but then it wouldn't make much sense to have an open tournament or payout on an individual basis. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:22 dredd276 wrote: If we didn't have the 5-max-people-per-team rule wouldn't the people who were selected into the NASL who weren't on teams be really attractive additions for teams looking for talent? The NASL is going to be huge and the players in it will get lots of valuable exposure. So the "we want people on teams" problem should sort itself out. tl;dr: most NASL players without teams would probably get picked up by teams What if a player is looking around for a good option? A few big names that have been without teams for prolonged periods of time in SC2: Boxer, Idra, Genius, Ganzi. This is absolutely not because they are not good enough but most likely they are just holding it off until they find the right team/deal. Also if being on Duckload constitutes as a team then basically any player can just find 1 sponsor and put it in front of his name. | ||
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lovelyrose
Canada160 Posts
I think what makes proleague so appealing for fans is getting involved in their teams, and the drama of one guy eliminating the others teammate so the other wants revenge for his friend. it's much harder to tell a story if you don't use teams, imagine the casual person trying to remember everything about 60 different people. not saying this is the 100% correct way of running it or not, but I feel this is what nasl is trying to achieve. lets say the average viewer loves Jinro and team liquid is up against someone from EG. some guy's favourite player is Jinro, but he's long gone, but he knows Jinro is on team liquid, the viewer can still get into it because Ret is playing. I feel that's what they're trying to achieve with the team thing, although Im not sure. they know even if the rules the way they are now, people from TL will still like the nasl. it's a great tournament, and it can only be better for esports to have it. in order to make this succeed to how they want, I'd imagine they need to appeal to more than the people from TL, and websites similar to TL. I just don't personally feel that the only way to get invited should be through teams, people such duckload ra do deserve a shot, as well as there being 6 people from TL who clearly deserve to be in nasl. | ||
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PHedemark
Denmark37 Posts
I'm inclined to think, as someone also noticed in the Q&A thread, that the team aspect is to make the handpicking of players easier. Hell, there are thousands of players who'd love to get a shot at the NASL, but there will never be a good way to pick the 50 attendants. Sure, we can all agree on about half of them (atleast if we only take NA players into account), but from then on it's a matter of personal taste. Do you like player X over player Y? I can easily follow your line of thought and I feel like the exclusion of players not on teams are a bad thing, but I'm unable myself to come up with a good way to qualify players. Cups seems bad, invitations based on results just as bad and popularity contests are neither a good idea.... | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:04 Motion wrote: Only five players per Team is absolutely okay, plz don't make a cow! - Fair for everyone - Diversity in the way of play-styles, after 1-2 years a Powerhouse will reach certain styles... - Interesting Player Transfers, cause a Clan could only hold 5 Starplayers. ( At least interesting for the Viewers ) - But the major point is: Less Team tactics How is it fair? It is the opposite of fair. People are being punished for being on a good team. That isn't fair at all. Far from it. I want to see the best possible tournament. By restricting some of the top players form being in the tournament so that lesser players on lesser teams can play is just absurd to me as a fan. Why would any tournament want lesser talent when they could have top talent? There will be more hype behind games and leagues with top players playing in them then if you have "tier 2 progamers" participating. Imagine if GOM told ogs they could only allow 5 of their players to play in the next GSL. That would just be silly. | ||
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aznagent
Hong Kong166 Posts
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Nidoa
Canada239 Posts
Just wanted to remark though, that the GSL march preview from TL included a review and ranking of the teams based on how they're doing. I actually loved that part, seeing how OGS and TSL were maybe starting to lose some steam, while others like IM and ST were on the rise, and all that good jazz. Now, in GSL they don't restrict the number of players per team. They let the teams battle it out, and the teams get some prestige out of being able to qualify more of their players. The point i'm getting at, is that even if the GSL didn't try to constrict the number of players, there is still a good dynamic in there. For a while there were a few good teams, but then other teams are rising right now and stealing the thunder, so to speak. Feels to me like this is more skill-based, more rewarding too. And, if a team .is truly stronger, it should logically be more represented in the tournament. Similarly, it's less rewarding for the numbers like 45-50, to have people saying like " he's just there cuz Whitera doesnt have a team, or X liquid guy is the 6th wheel". | ||
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numberThirtyOne
United States294 Posts
So my question is, are there any rules comparable at all to this in the big Korean Broodwar Starleagues? I don't know everything about the OSL and MSL rules, but as far as I know, there are not. I seem to remember from time to time there would be a match where it was like oh this Samsung player can help out his teammate here by doing xyz, but I can't ever remember it being a huge deal or something that undermined the tournament. It was more just another element of drama and storyline than anything else. I've only followed the scene for about 5 years and not always super closely so maybe I've forgotten something more serious than Stork trying to get a lower seed at WCG or whatever. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1825 Posts
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