EPTOtherwise i wholeheartedly agree with Tyler and from the very beginning i did not think the 5Player a team rule was a god idea, because it is a 1v1 Tournament where everybody plays to be the best.
NASL and Teams: What's the Deal? - Page 6
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Clamev
Germany498 Posts
Otherwise i wholeheartedly agree with Tyler and from the very beginning i did not think the 5Player a team rule was a god idea, because it is a 1v1 Tournament where everybody plays to be the best. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
You seriously want members of a team to compete AGAINST each other for the opportunity to play? That might work for some teams with a larger player pool, but some teams try to have their entire "team" aspect built on comaraderie, not competition. Absolutely man, there has always been inner team ladders, an A team and a B team. That always existed, absolutely nothing wrong with that, and there's still camaraderie for sure. ust to point out, according to the NASL system, only Idra or Jinro would have played in the GSL, not both. One would have been excluded from the tournament in order to prevent a team kill. Why? They would just be put into separate groups. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:35 Daigomi wrote: Just to point out, according to the NASL system, only Idra or Jinro would have played in the GSL, not both. One would have been excluded from the tournament in order to prevent a team kill. Except for the fact that they're not on the same team? | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:37 Motion wrote: Like i said, it's not fair right now, but look neutral on it. In future there are 5 Players from a team in the 50 Players over all. So you should have 10 Teams with each 5 Players right ? NO! there aren't 10 Teams with 5 Starplayers. Instead of having 8 Players from "Star-Team Y" and 7 Players from "Star-Team X" we have more diversity, more players from smaller teams, this is much more fair! It's more fair because you don't have to be like TL, even root has some sponsor issues... If we don't make this rule, then there will be only some Clans with large financial background and YOU as a new Player without the Big Star Team will have no chance to compete! This in fact hampers the NEW PLAYERS because the only way a non-team player can compete is if he makes it through a 1000-man open tournament. It is not at all the other way around. And there's no reason to have shitty teams play--they don't seem to be discriminating on amount of sponsorship, merely they require sponsorship, which even I still don't agree with, but almost any team that has played decently in pay tournaments will have sponsorship, even if it's as small as getting a few free keyboards, that IS sponsorship. EDIT: Obviously, receiving the keyboards not as a prize, but from a company in a sponsorship deal yadda yadda. | ||
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paksam
143 Posts
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Mairu
United States222 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:32 Zim23 wrote: For one, I think team kill matches suck. You're getting team kills even with this rule, the team kill is just happening before the matches occur. You're also limiting the any sort of acquisitions teams like TL, EG, or even root might bother with due to NASL limiting the amount of players they can send to NASL. That's killing the team members before they even have a chance to play! I mean, even looking at the GSL in Korea, which has a greater amount of teams and a greater amount of players on legitimately sponsored teams you can see it doesn't seem to make much sense. In just Code S, oGs has 8 players. Prime has 5. If you were to expand it to include Code A, ST, oGs, IM, Prime, ZeNEX, and TSL all are going to have more than five players on their teams. This kind of rule wouldn't work in Korea, where the environment for esports is bigger, the amount of sponsored teams is bigger, and the player skill is on average higher. How is it going to work in NA/EU? What would happen if Gretech told the Korean teams that they'd have to send only five players? It'd be a disaster. | ||
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Char711
United States862 Posts
I also have to agree with Tump quite a bit: are we running a "Pro" league or a "Star" league? You have things like GSL on one hand and GSTL on the other. Semi-combining the rules of the GSTL into the GSL takes some of the uniqueness away and ruins a big part of the concept. You shouldn't be ignoring people based on teams (or, on the other hand, only looking at them because of teams). I've only had time to listen to a dozen minutes or so of the new SotG -- really excited to hear the discussion in it! ^_^ | ||
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ForgottenOne
Romania236 Posts
EXAMPLE 1: The fear that players from the same team will cheat by purposely loosing a game to a teammate. This can happen in divisions where we have two players from the same team. If you distribute the players from the same team among divisions you end up with as much as two players from the same team in the same division. The probability that you get more than two (a team has more that ten super good players) is ridiculously low; and even if it were to happen, you should allow all the players.. I mean that would be players to watch! So we have two players from the same team. The idea that in ONE of NINE games, they will meet and one player is so confident and so far ahead (1) that he thinks is guaranteed to get out of the division is extremely unlikely. First they need to meet in the last games (2). And then be both willing to risk their image (3) and the image of the team (4) and the image of the sponsor (5) or have that team have such internal policy co ask the players to do that (6). (1)(2)(3)(4)(5) or (1)(2)(6) We have a tight and improbable situation for the gain of a slightly better chance of MAKING IT OUT OF DIVISION INTO PLAYOFFS! So the risk is huge, the gain is very small and it MAYBE gets you to play ONE round more for ONE season. | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
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Mumblee
Canada256 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:39 Xeris wrote: Except for the fact that they're not on the same team? He's drawing parallels between the idea that no one likes team kills, even if that team is "team foreigner". Still, team kills would be better than your favorite player not playing at all just because there is a chance of a team kill. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:41 Mairu wrote: You're getting team kills even with this rule, the team kill is just happening before the matches occur. You're also limiting the any sort of acquisitions teams like TL, EG, or even root might bother with due to NASL limiting the amount of players they can send to NASL. That's killing the team members before they even have a chance to play! I mean, even looking at the GSL in Korea, which has a greater amount of teams and a greater amount of players on legitimately sponsored teams you can see it doesn't seem to make much sense. In just Code S, oGs has 8 players. Prime has 5. If you were to expand it to include Code A, ST, oGs, IM, Prime, ZeNEX, and TSL all are going to have more than five players on their teams. This kind of rule wouldn't work in Korea, where the environment for esports is bigger, the amount of sponsored teams is bigger, and the player skill is on average higher. How is it going to work in NA/EU? What would happen if Gretech told the Korean teams that they'd have to send only five players? It'd be a disaster. Yes that's what I'm saying! I like that way better. I want the teams to decide who they send. That's way more drama. Inner team ladders etc... are so much funner to see and less cringe worthy than seeing a group with 3 or 4 members from the same team. I can't wait to see the starting line up of teams, that's drama. Read my post man, I address this. | ||
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FlashIsHigh
United States474 Posts
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:39 Xeris wrote: Except for the fact that they're not on the same team? Not on the same team? They're both white and both speak English, how is that not the same team? /troll | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:32 Zim23 wrote: Second, I think the real drama here is who the teams will nominate to participate in the NASL. This motivates members of teams to practice and play better so their team is confident in sending them out. Maybe there will be in-team battles to see who makes it. I want to see the progress of inner-team ladders, where the top 5 are going into the NASL. That is way better drama than having a "team kill" round which honestly sounds terrible to me. On top of that, teams basically running the team kill scenarios on their own in order to choose the 5 players they're sending serves the same purpose, and provides far better drama. I can't wait to see the starting line up of teams, that's part of the story to me. How is it way better drama? - Outsiders (fans) won't even get to know or hear anything about it, teams will just come up with a list of names and everything that led to that will stay hidden from the public. - It will create negative tension within a team. In a team-kill situations, at least both players are given a chance to compete, and the better Starcraft player will win. With NASL's rule, it's more like one or two members of the team are told "we think you suck, you're not getting in our 5" in one way or the other (we won't know why or how). - In general, because of the 5 players per team limit, you shut off better players and give league spots to the worse players (from other teams). Why anyone would want this is beyond me. On February 24 2011 07:32 Zim23 wrote: Just look at when the GSL released the groups for season 4, TL was so pissed when we saw two foreigners in the same group, because no one wants to see that shit. We want our favorite team to make it far. When they team kill each other it's not fun and leaves a sour taste in our collective mouths. That situation is completely different. Mostly everybody on TL wants foreigners to be successful in Korea and support them unanimously. I myself supported Idra in the GSL, and it's VERY painful for me to support Idra in any way, but in the example you named, there's a higher cause. There's no such thing at all in an entirely foreign-based league. | ||
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jax1492
United States1632 Posts
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:36 wonderwall wrote: Except Idra and Jinro aren't on the same team.... He brought it up as an example of a team kill, I followed the example. The logic stays the same though. Arguing that people who support EG would prefer to have one EG player excluded from the tournament rather than have two EG players play each other in a non-teamkill way is absurd. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:44 Talin wrote: How is it way better drama? - Outsiders (fans) won't even get to know or hear anything about it, teams will just come up with a list of names and everything that led to that will stay hidden from the public. - It will create negative tension within a team. In a team-kill situations, at least both players are given a chance to compete, and the better Starcraft player will win. With NASL's rule, it's more like one or two members of the team are told "we think you suck, you're not getting in our 5" in one way or the other (we won't know why or how). - In general, because of the 5 players per team limit, you shut off better players and give league spots to the worse players (from other teams). Why anyone would want this is beyond me. That situation is completely different. Mostly everybody on TL wants foreigners to be successful in Korea and support them unanimously. I myself supported Idra in the GSL, and it's VERY painful for me to support Idra in any way, but in the example you named, there's a higher cause. There's no such thing at all in an entirely foreign-based league. That's not the point, the point is we were supporting foreigners and they ended up in the same group, which sucked unanimously. It's the same if you support Team Liquid or Root and there's a group with 4 of them in there. It would be bad, and that's my opinion. I hate seeing my favorite teams play each other in the early rounds. And team ladders have always existed, I don't know if you followed BW but there has always been an A team and a B team. That's just part of competitive eSports. They are big boys, they can handle it. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
On February 24 2011 07:47 Daigomi wrote: He brought it up as an example of a team kill, I followed the example. The logic stays the same though. Arguing that people who support EG would prefer to have one EG player excluded from the tournament rather than have two EG players play each other in a non-teamkill way is absurd. If it was limited to 2 than you have an argument, but 5 players is enough to see most of your favorite players. If they don't make it to the starting lineup it means they weren't good enough to make it. Time for them to practice hard and make it to the A team, just like BW. | ||
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HorstSchlemmer
Germany114 Posts
We would need a definition of "team" first, because there's room for interpretation. Do you see Duckload as a "team", or are they just sponsoring White-Ra? Actually White-Ra isn't on what we would call a team, nevertheless he's ranked quite high in the uservote. I don't get this rule either, it would be good if there were teams with 30++ top players, but come on, most teams consist of 5-7 players. | ||
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