NASL and Teams: What's the Deal? - Page 7

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ForgottenOne

Romania236 Posts

February 23 2011 22:49 GMT

#121

This rule fails for about every purpose it's in place. I'll give one example:

EXAMPLE 2:

To all thinking this system is avoiding teamkills and doing a good this way.
That's just silly.

1st. Teamkill is when two from the same team play and one is eliminated. Because we have multiple rounds per division this is not the case. One will just get one point more.
2nd. Not allowing more than five players is already a TEAMKILL. Because you kill (eliminate) at least one player.

dahornnn

United Kingdom395 Posts

February 23 2011 22:49 GMT

#122

I think the 5 per team thing is an idea that COULD be good for western esports in 6 months if it explodes and large companies see that the NASL has this huge number of viewers, hits and subscribers and a team can say 'yeah, we are a prt of that'........ but it doesn't at the moment and a lot of players are going to be put in a really crappy spot when they can give up an ok salary in a solid, stable, reliable and respected organisation and be the 6th-10th player on a roster and not play in the nasl or they can try get a contract with a team which is a lot less likely to pay a salary or as good as they had before for the sake of playing NASL...... not to mention that awkward moment in house when someone who gets told theyre in the few that didnt make it on a pro team who have more than 5 players if they feel they deserve i!

Talin

Montenegro10532 Posts

February 23 2011 22:49 GMT

#123

On February 24 2011 07:36 wonderwall wrote:
There's a few things which indicate to me they want to sell a more storyline based product where the audience have a connection with the players. Everyone has to be part of a team to be eligible to enter. Players have to answer a series of pre-season questions about themselves. NASL will feature player interviews and so-forth..

Storyline based around the actual players, yes. That's why they want all the videos with personalities and stuff.

As for having to be part of a team to be eligible, that rule was explained on SoTG and has nothing to do with selling NASL as some sort of an improvised team league.

They simply want players who are reliable and professional rather than the latest ladder hero or weekly online cup hero whom nobody can vouch for. They want the player to have a tie with a team so that NASL people know who to turn to in case of any issues with the player.

DeckOneBell

United States526 Posts

February 23 2011 22:51 GMT

#124

On February 24 2011 07:47 Zim23 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 24 2011 07:44 Talin wrote:

On February 24 2011 07:32 Zim23 wrote:
Second, I think the real drama here is who the teams will nominate to participate in the NASL. This motivates members of teams to practice and play better so their team is confident in sending them out. Maybe there will be in-team battles to see who makes it. I want to see the progress of inner-team ladders, where the top 5 are going into the NASL. That is way better drama than having a "team kill" round which honestly sounds terrible to me. On top of that, teams basically running the team kill scenarios on their own in order to choose the 5 players they're sending serves the same purpose, and provides far better drama. I can't wait to see the starting line up of teams, that's part of the story to me.

How is it way better drama?

- Outsiders (fans) won't even get to know or hear anything about it, teams will just come up with a list of names and everything that led to that will stay hidden from the public.

- It will create negative tension within a team. In a team-kill situations, at least both players are given a chance to compete, and the better Starcraft player will win. With NASL's rule, it's more like one or two members of the team are told "we think you suck, you're not getting in our 5" in one way or the other (we won't know why or how).

- In general, because of the 5 players per team limit, you shut off better players and give league spots to the worse players (from other teams). Why anyone would want this is beyond me.

On February 24 2011 07:32 Zim23 wrote:
Just look at when the GSL released the groups for season 4, TL was so pissed when we saw two foreigners in the same group, because no one wants to see that shit. We want our favorite team to make it far. When they team kill each other it's not fun and leaves a sour taste in our collective mouths.

That situation is completely different. Mostly everybody on TL wants foreigners to be successful in Korea and support them unanimously. I myself supported Idra in the GSL, and it's VERY painful for me to support Idra in any way, but in the example you named, there's a higher cause.

There's no such thing at all in an entirely foreign-based league.

That's not the point, the point is we were supporting foreigners and they ended up in the same group, which sucked unanimously. It's the same if you support Team Liquid or Root and there's a group with 4 of them in there. It would be bad, and that's my opinion. I hate seeing my favorite teams play each other in the early rounds. And team ladders have always existed, I don't know if you followed BW but there has always been an A team and a B team. That's just part of competitive eSports. They are big boys, they can handle it.

I don't know if YOU followed BW, but in BW there was a team league, (Shinhan Proleague) and an individual league, actually, two (Ongamenet Starleague and MBCGame Starleague). At least for the major progamers.

One was based on team play, and yeah, they didn't use all the players all the time, but team strategies were important, and how well your teammates did affected your team's chance to win each match.

The other was an individual league, and teams had no effect on it, even being an "A-teamer" or a "B-teamer" had no major effect.

So your analogy is poor.

There was no pseudo team/individual mash-up league.

Antoine

United States7481 Posts

February 23 2011 22:51 GMT

#125

On February 24 2011 07:48 Zim23 wrote:

Show nested quote +

If it was limited to 2 than you have an argument, but 5 players is enough to see most of your favorite players. If they don't make it to the starting lineup it means they weren't good enough to make it. Time for them to practice hard and make it to the A team, just like BW.

b-teamers aren't excluded from msl and osl.

sixfour

England11061 Posts

February 23 2011 22:51 GMT

#126

Personally I don't see the problem with limiting it to 5 per team. Similar things happen all the time: WCG has only ever allowed three Koreans, going outside of esports, the Olympics only allow three per country in most things, if that (was watching some track cycling this weekend and it's kind of LOL that the UK has two sprinters with genuine medal chances but can only take one to 2012). So the sixth best guy on EG can't play? Big deal.

Mairu

United States222 Posts

February 23 2011 22:52 GMT

#127

On February 24 2011 07:49 Talin wrote:
They simply want players who are reliable and professional rather than the latest ladder hero or weekly online cup hero whom nobody can vouch for. They want the player to have a tie with a team so that NASL people know who to turn to in case of any issues with the player.

Aren't they already going to be held accountable due to the fact that they have that $250 refundable fee?

Zim23

United States1681 Posts

February 23 2011 22:53 GMT

#128

On February 24 2011 07:51 Antoine wrote:

Show nested quote +

b-teamers aren't excluded from msl and osl.

Yes but people are saying having team rankings is bad because teams shouldn't compete within themselves (it's bad to say this team member is better than this one), and I'm saying that kind of thing has always been there.

Toriko

Canada60 Posts

February 23 2011 22:53 GMT

#129

The 5 player restriction is honestly the stupidest idea I've ever heard. All I wanna see is the 50 best player compete. Every Liquid members are good enough to be the ace on most teams, but 1 of them can't play in the NASL because of this illogical rule? Who came up with this idea anyway? Incontrol? Jealous much of Liquid's success? I really hope they came up with this idea from a rational and unbiased point of view. I seriously doubt it because it makes 0 sense.

I was listening to SOTG and Incontrol said that by limiting it to 5 players, it'll prevent some sort of collusion. Starting Esports in NA on the wrong foot? Stop being so negative! We want this league to represent a fun, professional game, represented by the BEST professional players with INTEGRITY. If a player really wanted to cheat, believe me he will find a way to cheat, no matter what kind of rules you put in. If that were to happen, just ban that guy from playing in the NASL in the future. Not being able to play in a $100k (if not more in the future) prize pool tournament is punishment enough don't you think? I know I'd twice before cheating, especially if NASL does become THE league in NA that everyone wants to play in.

Suggestion: Remove the stupid 5 member per team limit, and implement harsher penalties instead. For instance, like I said before, ban the player for like 5 seasons or more. Hell, ban the team from participating for the next 2-3 seasons if you find out that a teammember did give away a free win to another teammate.

Diversity argument: another stupid argument obviously. Fans want to see diversity of course. But you are inviting 50 unique players. How's that for diversity? I don't care what's the team tag beside their name, each one of the them are unique individuals with unique stories. Fans want to see the best players, period. Yesterday Russell said having 10-15 different teams will help esports grow. I really don't see how to be honest LOL there aren't enough sponsors to sponsor 10-15 teams, especially when the Esports industry in NA is so young. No companies are going to blindly sponsor a team. You need to grow the scene first and then maybe they'll see the potential in marketing a SC2 team. That won't happen when you dilute talent into 15 teams.

If the people behind NASL are smart, then they will remove the team restriction. Bring up the team argument when you make a real proleague happen alright? Don't say GCPL.

By the way, serious question here to NASL team, who came up with the team restriction idea? Suggestion: Hire a competent marketing guy

Motion

Germany183 Posts

February 23 2011 22:54 GMT

#130

Okay you dont get it right?

let me make it very clear with a very simple example:

Just imagine Hwaseung OZ comes new to the scene. Jaydong would have only one chance to play in NASL: Though the 1000man Tornament, well you all know this is random crap.

So with only 5 Players per Team, the Rookie Jaydong from the New Team Hwaseung OZ will have a better chance to compete in NASL. Just because more Teams means more diversity and easier qualification for new good team based players!

PetRockSteve

United States70 Posts

February 23 2011 22:56 GMT

#131

I know nothing about the BW scene, but wouldn't this create something like the A team and B team that the Korean BW teams had? If not, could I get a little explanation?

The one thing I'd argue for the player limit is that the NASL can serve as advertising for all these teams. A company could see all these players from 10+ teams and feel like they have an opportunity to get their name out. In contrast, it seemed like some seasons of the GSL only had players from 5 or so teams. Hell, at the time of the GSTL 39 of the 64 players from the previous GSL were on 5 teams. So limiting the number of players per team could arguably increase the number of companies that are supporting SC2.

Personally, I would rather increase the number of players/divisions in future seasons and always matching the limit of players per team with the number of divisions. I know that there will still be an arbitrary limit, but more would able to play in this tournament per team. I personally don't think intra-team battles are that great except for the "boy it sucks that they have to play each other" moment.

Daigomi

South Africa4316 Posts

February 23 2011 22:56 GMT

#132

On February 24 2011 07:48 Zim23 wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's not relevant to my reply though. Your point was that teamkills suck, and you used the example of Idra and Jinro. I said that the limitation removes the "problem" of teamkills by excluding either Idra or Jinro from the start, a situation which is obviously worse.

What you make is a different argument, an argument that five players is enough for any team, and that any players not good enough should simply practice more. What happens if your sixth player is better than 80% of the players who enter the tournament though? That player is clearly being disadvantaged by being in a strong team. Saying a player who should qualify for the Final 16 should just "practice more", simply because he has an all star team with him is unreasonable.

In BW, "A team" only mattered in Team Leagues. Anyone could enter individual leagues on their own strength. Flash went to the quarterfinals of the OSL before he was on the A team of KTF, for example. If KTF could choose to send five players, do you think Flash would have played in that OSL? Players in individual leagues should not be disadvantaged for being in a strong team, and tournaments should not choose weaker players based on arbitrary limitations.

Liquid`Nazgul

22427 Posts

February 23 2011 22:57 GMT

#133

On February 24 2011 07:51 sixfour wrote:
Personally I don't see the problem with limiting it to 5 per team. Similar things happen all the time: WCG has only ever allowed three Koreans, going outside of esports, the Olympics only allow three per country in most things, if that (was watching some track cycling this weekend and it's kind of LOL that the UK has two sprinters with genuine medal chances but can only take one to 2012). So the sixth best guy on EG can't play? Big deal.

Country != team none of your examples ever got anywhere near excluding people from the same teams in individual sports. If the olympics did something like that they would meet an incredible amount of resistance.

Traditionally (and for good reasons):
Individual world championships/olympics: Limit people based on countries.
Team sports/leagues: Limit people based on teams

Don't mix the two up, no other sport does. What the NASL is doing here I have never heard of before and examples of the olympics are absolutely inaccurate because the olympics is about countries (and thus limits it by that) and the NASL is not about teams, a team league is.

Talin

Montenegro10532 Posts

February 23 2011 22:58 GMT

#134

On February 24 2011 07:47 Zim23 wrote:
That's not the point, the point is we were supporting foreigners and they ended up in the same group, which sucked unanimously. It's the same if you support Team Liquid or Root and there's a group with 4 of them in there. It would be bad, and that's my opinion. I hate seeing my favorite teams play each other in the early rounds.

But what I said is exactly the point. The GSL-foreigner analogy is superficial and does not actually relate well at all to the foreigner team scene. There are very few diehard TL or Root fans who are in it for the teams, rather than their favorite PLAYERS on teams. The kind of support similar to the support and desire for foreigners to do well in Korea doesn't exist.

On February 24 2011 07:47 Zim23 wrote:
And team ladders have always existed, I don't know if you followed BW but there has always been an A team and a B team. That's just part of competitive eSports. They are big boys, they can handle it.

It's easy for you to say they can handle it. That's the worst part of competitive esports, and there is no need AT ALL to encourage it in western esports. At least not yet, and hopefully not ever.

Korean B teams were usually the source of most pro BW horror stories. Just ask Ret or Tyler how they had it (they spoke about it a lot in interviews as well), and a lot of Koreans had it way worse.

Besides, in the case of Korean B teams, most players on B teams are universally worse than players on ANY A team. That would not be the case if you block a TL player from taking part in NASL and invite a 5th VT player instead (no offense to VT, but let's be realistic here).

fabiano

Brazil4644 Posts

February 23 2011 22:59 GMT

#135

Now I'm confused.

Isn't NASL an individual league?

artoo[

United States22 Posts

February 23 2011 23:00 GMT

#136

The whole NASL is a let down. I'll stick to watching GSL. The team rules are arbitrary and the voting system to get an invite is unsavory. I wish InControl the best of luck but honestly bud, I'll tune in to GSL and MLG because they are INDIVIDUAL LEAGUES that requires INDIVIDUAL SKILL and nothing more. Adding a TEAM requirements to an INDIVIDUAL LEAGUE is lame. Anyone should be able to get in. As for the back story stuff, it's interesting, but who cares? I skip the intros and just watch the game. My $$ goes to MLG and GSL. I have no room for this thing...

huameng

United States1133 Posts

February 23 2011 23:00 GMT

#137

On February 24 2011 07:53 Zim23 wrote:

Show nested quote +

What? No one is saying team rankings are bad. People are saying that team rankings shouldn't affect who gets to play in the tournament.

On February 24 2011 07:54 Motion wrote:
Okay you dont get it right?

let me make it very clear with a very simple example:

Just imagine Hwaseung OZ comes new to the scene. Jaydong would have only one chance to play in NASL: Though the 1000man Tornament, well you all know this is random crap.

So with only have 5 Players per Team, the Rookie Jaydong from the New Team Hwaseung OZ will have a better chance to compete in NASL. Just because more Teams means more diversity and easier calcification for new good team based players!

Yeah, but the rookie Flash from the team of Reach, Yellow, Chojja, Sync, and Goodfriend doesn't get to play at all! How tragic is that?

Plus, if Jaedong is better than the 6th best players on a bigger team, he should be invited anyway. If he isn't better than the 6th best players, why should he be allowed to play?

This tournament has the potential to cause teams with 5 strong players to stop adding new talent, since new additions won't be able to play in the team league. The country restriction in the olympics and similar events doesn't have that problem since it's way harder to switch citizenships. ;d

Zim23

United States1681 Posts

February 23 2011 23:01 GMT

#138

On February 24 2011 07:56 Daigomi wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's not relevant to my reply though. Your point was that teamkills suck, and you used the example of Idra and Jinro. I said that the limitation removes the "problem" of teamkills by excluding either Idra or Jinro from the start, a situation which is obviously worse.

What you make is a different argument, and argument that the five players is enough for any team, and that any players not good enough should simply practice more. What happens if your sixth player is better than 80% of the players who enter the tournament though? That player is clearly being disadvantaged by being in a strong team. Saying a player who should qualify for the Final 16 should just "practice more", simply because he has an all star team with him is unreasonable.

In BW, "A team" only mattered in Team Leagues. Anyone could enter individual leagues on their own strength. Flash went to the quarterfinals of the OSL before he was on the A team of KTF, for example. If KTF could choose to send five players, do you think Flash would have played in that OSL? Players in individual leagues should not be disadvantaged for being in a strong team, and tournaments should not choose weaker players based on arbitrary limitations.

Yeah that's an interesting point, but it doesn't really exist as far as I can tell. To my knowledge there isn't really a team with a 6th member better than 80% of the league. Most teams have a couple players who win tournaments or are fairly successful, and 3 or 4 other really good players. Once there is a team with 6 possible tournament winners, while most other players in the league are subpar I could definitely see your argument holding water, and you'll see me changing my tune.

Talin

Montenegro10532 Posts

February 23 2011 23:01 GMT

#139

On February 24 2011 07:52 Mairu wrote:

Show nested quote +

Aren't they already going to be held accountable due to the fact that they have that $250 refundable fee?

If you ask me, they are.

But it's also the reason the NASL guy gave for the "you have to be on a team" rule when asked about it on State of the Game.

Terrakin

United States1440 Posts

February 23 2011 23:02 GMT

#140

On February 24 2011 07:54 Motion wrote:
Okay you dont get it right?

let me make it very clear with a very simple example:

Just imagine Hwaseung OZ comes new to the scene. Jaydong would have only one chance to play in NASL: Though the 1000man Tornament, well you all know this is random crap.

So with only 5 Players per Team, the Rookie Jaydong from the New Team Hwaseung OZ will have a better chance to compete in NASL. Just because more Teams means more diversity and easier qualification for new good team based players!

I don't really understand what im reading here can anyone rephrase? Or can you rephrase

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