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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 23:48 Chylo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 23:40 KoKoRo wrote:
What if Zergs starting using Overseers to slow down colossi/Void Ray production or Nydus Worms to go around the Protoss army?
Zerg is my off race and I'm a Master's Terran and many Protoss don't actually know how to deal with Nydus worms that don't pop up in their main or natural. Nydus worms just give the Zerg so much map control with being able to safely take island expos and what not. Yeah a Protoss can hear when you're taking an island but you get 2 Nydus worms continuously popping out canals I don't see what the problem could be. Even poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at. I also think Nydus Worms should get a buff allowing them to spit units down cliffs as long as it leaves them vulnerable while spitting to the low ground. Only a terran can think like this. Do you think all these nyduses "poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at" are FREE? Ever checked the gas cost on nydus? And then continuously popping out canals? Seriously, only a terran could think like this. Do you honestly think the zerg DOESN'T know where their army is? The problem is, when they actually come slaughter you with their army and now you've got 10 less corruptors because you've been "continuously popping out canals" and you die instantly. A single zealot can prevent any canal getting remotely close to their main or natural.
Because 100-400 gas is a lot? Maybe I'm good as Terran/Zerg because I think like this. Do you think Banshees are free? Do you think Banshees automatically come equipped with Cloak? I invest in things that give me valuable scouting information and/or proper flanks. Now you tell me, what are the downsides to using Nydus Worms other than "1 less corruptor".
Nydus worm allows you to take expos that are not accessible by ground. More gas income. Do I honestly think a Zerg "DOESN'T" know where their army is? Yes. In fact I do. If you can't see it, you don't know where it's at. You just know where it isn't. And if they come to slaughter you, you use the Nydus Worm you have hidden to go around their army and base trade. Did you know Nydus's are structures and you have to kill them in order to lose all your buildings? And if you have an island the only way they'll get to it is with Void Rays. The only situation I see this as bad is them playing running back to clean up your army, which you make another, or running probes around to spam Pylons.
Maybe you're Zerg because you don't know how to play. You just follow what other people are doing.
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I experienced this build when I slaughtered a Protoss on scrap and locked him into two bases, I merrily expanded to 4 bases and maxed out on hyrda/roach/corruptor (about 12 of those) and then proceeded to see an all void ray/colossus army absolutely melt my original army and taking almost no damage.... it was the most disgusting thing I've ever seen and I knew that it was coming in part.
This type of build is absolutely overpowered as zerg do not possess the anti-air tools to deal with this build. Colossus hard counter ground, and the voids outdps corruptors even before they are charged... forget afterwords.
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On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them.
So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
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On February 17 2011 00:22 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:12 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
early game you are fragile to number of builds. you said it with "problem staying alive enough". Yes, which is why you don't open muta. Because why build mutas until you see what they are building? Zerg's strength is being able to switch tech, so if you open standard and keep your eyes open, you should be fine. Show nested quote +and lategame P doesnt need superior numbers. you need storm. a single storm can roast dozens of lings and deal hundreds of dmg to your mutas. But storm is going to be hard to have with a colossi/VR composition-- remember, that's the strat we are talking about, not going mass muta just for the hell of it. Show nested quote +hell take it to the ridiculous level lategame and add a mothership. you pretty much have to surround/box mutas over the P ball. one toilet and your whole army evaporates doing nothing at all. Which is why you stay awake and micro in such situations. You shouldn't be a-moving, anyway. Show nested quote +thats what i meant with fragile.less solid then roach/hydra openings, vulnerable to all the standart timing stuff Ps do vs muta Z since ages and ends up with a army that can be utterly destroyed by HT tehc lategame. and its unlikely that you can end it early. Again, you open solidly with roach/hydra, and transition into muta. The hydras can even buy you time against the VRs if there aren't a lot of colossi on the field yet. And if the ground army is too terribly small, you can just run up to the colossi and focus them down. Show nested quote +maybe im totally wrong. but from my expirience(granted i rarely play Z/P atm) i dont see how this could be a solid strat. Because you are looking at it from the perspective of just "go muta," from the very start, as opposed to transitioning to muta when appropriate. Especially if you were going roach/hydra and the P player decided to build more colossi than he should have, you are going to own him. Anything that can't target air is just going to make muta all the more powerful-- and mutas aren't as fragile as units as people think. I mean, sure, against marines I would rather send my drones than mutas, but against stalkers or VRs mutas are fine.
Seriously, you can't transition from roach hydra to muta. Sure you can transition from pure roach to ling muta without a pb, but hydra just cost too much gaz, you will have no reserve in gaz at all and you will pop out mutas way too late to do anything anyway.
Late game yeah, that's really interesting, I have never considered switching to heavy muta off 4-5 bases, sure it could take the protoss off guard, thanks for the tips.
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On February 17 2011 00:25 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
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i dont know if this has been asked already, but will you keep making the show now that IdrA is leaving Korea?
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On February 17 2011 00:27 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:25 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas. Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough.
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On February 17 2011 00:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:22 FrostOtter wrote:On February 17 2011 00:12 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
early game you are fragile to number of builds. you said it with "problem staying alive enough". Yes, which is why you don't open muta. Because why build mutas until you see what they are building? Zerg's strength is being able to switch tech, so if you open standard and keep your eyes open, you should be fine. and lategame P doesnt need superior numbers. you need storm. a single storm can roast dozens of lings and deal hundreds of dmg to your mutas. But storm is going to be hard to have with a colossi/VR composition-- remember, that's the strat we are talking about, not going mass muta just for the hell of it. hell take it to the ridiculous level lategame and add a mothership. you pretty much have to surround/box mutas over the P ball. one toilet and your whole army evaporates doing nothing at all. Which is why you stay awake and micro in such situations. You shouldn't be a-moving, anyway. thats what i meant with fragile.less solid then roach/hydra openings, vulnerable to all the standart timing stuff Ps do vs muta Z since ages and ends up with a army that can be utterly destroyed by HT tehc lategame. and its unlikely that you can end it early. Again, you open solidly with roach/hydra, and transition into muta. The hydras can even buy you time against the VRs if there aren't a lot of colossi on the field yet. And if the ground army is too terribly small, you can just run up to the colossi and focus them down. maybe im totally wrong. but from my expirience(granted i rarely play Z/P atm) i dont see how this could be a solid strat. Because you are looking at it from the perspective of just "go muta," from the very start, as opposed to transitioning to muta when appropriate. Especially if you were going roach/hydra and the P player decided to build more colossi than he should have, you are going to own him. Anything that can't target air is just going to make muta all the more powerful-- and mutas aren't as fragile as units as people think. I mean, sure, against marines I would rather send my drones than mutas, but against stalkers or VRs mutas are fine. Seriously, you can't transition from roach hydra to muta. Sure you can transition from pure roach to ling muta without a pb, but hydra just cost too much gaz, you will have no reserve in gaz at all and you will pop out mutas way too late to do anything anyway. Late game yeah, that's really interesting, I have never considered switching to heavy muta off 4-5 bases, sure it could take the protoss off guard, thanks for the tips.
I agree, it definitely isn't the easiest thing in the world-- however, ideally you would notice that the protoss isn't going with warpgate units BEFORE you get maxed on roach/hydra-- so scouting is really the key, since you are, as you pointed out, going to need that gas. And yes, lots of expos help 
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On February 16 2011 23:56 DjayEl wrote:
Why do people dont go through the entire topic. We already discussed mutas and the still is P players continuously spamming redundant posts about mutas and how awesome they are supposed to be. Thats how threads go hundred pages and no one is really able to read them any more.
A single question : do you know about the 6 gate push ?
It seem also that a lot of posts that claim to be "i play both P and Z" seem to be disguised "i only really play P posts and dont want anyone claim my race is OP".
Are you really pleased with playing an imbalanced strat ? Why is it for, just pumping your stats ?
I may agree 2 pgms playing zerg may be biased, vut what about non pro P gamers ? Actually between two different biased pov, I personnaly am more intended into belive the pro one.
People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P.
What the hell does the 6 gate push have to do about this? If the guy opens that way, the deathball certainly isn't coming (or is way too delayed to matter). If that's the case, the problem isn't the Collo/VR combo.
And people taking this being IMBA as a pure fact is the reason why this thread is so darn active. People have the right to disagree with what was said in this episode. Pro gammers are immune to mistake. People also felt that they didn't go far enough into explaining why it is OP. I will still complain that IdrA and Artosis weren't consistant in their argument: if they say that a maxed zerg army will not beat a maxed Protoss army, why the hell do they keep talking about ways to fix it head-on.
Sure, I'm protoss, but I didn't even know about this strat.
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On February 17 2011 00:27 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:25 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas. Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
Once again phoenix vs. muta micro is really easy. You don't have to be super gosu to out-micro when you have longer range, a faster unit, and can shoot while moving. All you have to do is circle around the mutas at max range and the muta ball is fucked. Mutas cannot even retreat from the fight without dying.
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On February 17 2011 00:28 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:27 FrostOtter wrote:On February 17 2011 00:25 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas. Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes? Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough.
If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix.
Or, of course, throw some infestors in.
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I don't know how high up the Korean ladder artosis is, but NspGenius used this build on his (Xeph's) stream the other week and got absolutely destroyed by a mutalisk ball. So it is possible to beat it.
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On February 17 2011 00:30 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:28 WhiteDog wrote:On February 17 2011 00:27 FrostOtter wrote:On February 17 2011 00:25 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas. Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes? Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough. If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix. Or, of course, throw some infestors in.
Or he could just retreat the colossus to his canons and then hunt down the muta ball until it's dead.
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On February 17 2011 00:29 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 23:56 DjayEl wrote:
Why do people dont go through the entire topic. We already discussed mutas and the still is P players continuously spamming redundant posts about mutas and how awesome they are supposed to be. Thats how threads go hundred pages and no one is really able to read them any more.
A single question : do you know about the 6 gate push ?
It seem also that a lot of posts that claim to be "i play both P and Z" seem to be disguised "i only really play P posts and dont want anyone claim my race is OP".
Are you really pleased with playing an imbalanced strat ? Why is it for, just pumping your stats ?
I may agree 2 pgms playing zerg may be biased, vut what about non pro P gamers ? Actually between two different biased pov, I personnaly am more intended into belive the pro one. People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P. What the hell does the 6 gate push have to do about this? If the guy opens that way, the deathball certainly isn't coming (or is way too delayed to matter). If that's the case, the problem isn't the Collo/VR combo. And people taking this being IMBA as a pure fact is the reason why this thread is so darn active. People have the right to disagree with what was said in this episode. Pro gammers are immune to mistake. People also felt that they didn't go far enough into explaining why it is OP. I will still complain that IdrA and Artosis weren't consistant in their argument: if they say that a maxed zerg army will not beat a maxed Protoss army, why the hell do they keep talking about ways to fix it head-on. Sure, I'm protoss, but I didn't even know about this strat.
Listen, if you go straight for muta, then the protoss will scout and punish you. If you go roach push, you will use all your gaz into burrow, roach speed, ranged attacked upgrade, roach, not to mention hydras. Spire is very, very long to build, cost 200 gaz. So if you don't go straight for muta, basically you will have your first 6-7 muta when he will pop out his first colossi. If you go straight for muta, the protoss kill you with a 6gate push.
Don't forget that it's very hard for zerg to scout the protoss base (July against squirtle make and overseer just to scout, I don't think he was considering the dark templar).
PS/ stop saying the word "infestor". Most of us (zerg players) just like infestor a lot but almost never build them because of the gaz prize and the easy way they die.
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United States7483 Posts
How about suiciding a bunch of infestors one at a time to fungal growth the protoss deathball repeatedly?
10-12 Fungal growths should kill it all off. Assuming you time it so you lose the last tick of fungal growth, that's what, 30 damage *10 = 300 damage from fungals to the deathball. Just keep moving in and hitting it. If you aim right the first time while the units are all clumped up, there's not going to be much they can do about it, especially with burrow.
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i personally think that mass muta would be a thing to try to counter it
@post before
i think the infestor thing wouldnt work because you wont be able to hit the whole army whith a fungal and if you dont hit everything your infestorts will die instantly
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The best I've been able to do against this strategy is actually roach/hydra->hydra/corruptor as odd as it sounds. My gameplan is this...
2 base push with burrow roaches once I confirm the void rays (which are defended by queens), hydra den gives you hydra reinforcements if/when he pulls back his void rays. This attack won't really work, but it should let you thin out his numbers at an even trade keeping his gateway/void ray/sentry count down a bit. It also secures your 3rd by being able to pull the initial VRs back. As the 3rd goes down you also want a fast spire and lots of gas as we'll be making hydras and corruptors.
Then pure hydralisk while spire is building for a very hydra heavy army. A spire near you need to save a LOT of gas/larva (your 3rd should double gas early I think) so you can get 12+ corruptors. Then it's all about the engagement.
Rather than going all in with your army the idea is to keep the hydras back while being very aggressive (suicidal?) with the corruptors having them target the colossi. You'll need to hit at good angles to keep the colossi from backing away too well. It seems to be very hard for the void rays (especially in the more limited number, you did push in with burrowed roaches right?!?) to deal enough dps to prevent the colossi from being sniped or thinned out and early on it's not possible to have a large enough gateway army to really cover the colossi either. Once the colossi are down your army is still smaller than his to an extent, but that's why your composition is so hydra heavy (use a few roaches/lings for taking damage).
You HAVE to fight him on his side of the map for this to work and ideally in a more choked area initially to restrict colossi movement.
Anyways it's not something I'm super confident of, but it is the main idea I've been bouncing around. It also won't work for later game void ray colossi and is more of a counter timing for when you see them going 2 base void ray to try and keep their colossi/vr numbers down.
So the short generic version of it is...
-Identify the expand intentions and drone hard with a plan to defend via queens + small roach #s + burrow if he does a quick 6 gate push.
-Exploit his lower gateway army count with early lair pressure
-Draw his high tech units + sentries out early to thin their numbers out initially (burrowed roaches will always do this unless you have like 5 roaches to his 30 gateway units)
-Use an early surge of corruptors to overwhelm his colossi count to expose a vulnerability
-Rely on the fact that vr-gateway is very weak to the remaining hydra army.
-Exploit how gas intensive it is to get sentries + colossi + vrs.
-Exploit the lower initial DPS/gas of VRs compared to stalkers (VRs initially do .11dps/gas compared to stalker's .19dps/gas and I think we can all agree vr/colossi/gateway is a gas capped army)
-Exploit the lower mobility of the VR causing them to be unable to reposition for free corruptor hits as easily as the stalkers can when trying to get in corruptors vs stalker/colossi.
-While colossi count is down pressure to thin out VR/gateway numbers so you can repeat the engagement again if necessary. Be cautious with the corruptors so you can use them to continue to pick off colossi without having to over-invest in additional waves of corruptors.
So don't take this as a complete YOU SHOULD DO THIS STRATEGY, but do consider how something like this can work if engaged properly. Basically VR/Colossi seems to be less about finding a right composition and more about using a combination of pressure and specific engagement strategies to overcome it. Until it's like 3 base 200/200 Colossi/VR; then you're fucked.
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On February 17 2011 00:36 Whitewing wrote:
How about suiciding a bunch of infestors one at a time to fungal growth the protoss deathball repeatedly?
10 Fungal growths should kill it all off.
The shield regen even during the fungal growth, so 10 fungal will just shatter the shield at best.
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I've seen the GSL game of this and can't see it working twice.
Kyrix went pure hydra the first engagement and got slaughtered because there were Colossi out. Not only that his hydras were barely hitting anything besides zealots because of FF. The last engagement, he streamed down his units in a single file.
On top of that, Protoss basically had a few FFs as defense the entire game. ANY type of pressure would won Kyrix the game.
Given that Protoss put no pressure, Zerg could've just mass droned early instead of making a lot of useless lings and just rolled him over with numbers later.
I think the Protoss won that game because Kyrix was unfamiliar with the map. That didn't seem like a progamer level of play from Kyrix that game.
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On February 17 2011 00:35 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:30 FrostOtter wrote:On February 17 2011 00:28 WhiteDog wrote:On February 17 2011 00:27 FrostOtter wrote:On February 17 2011 00:25 Treemonkeys wrote:On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas. Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes? Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough. If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix. Or, of course, throw some infestors in. Or he could just retreat the colossus to his canons and then hunt down the muta ball until it's dead.
Lol or he could just retreat into the safety of his 100 dark templar and 100 HT with storm. Where are you getting cannons from? Stop throwing out random scenarios, we are talking about composition v. composition, not a bunch of scenarios that will change game to game and be specific to a particular game between two particular players.
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EPT
