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IMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 13
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:35 StarcraftMan wrote: Arguably, the best Zerg in the world is Nestea Arguably, the best Terran in the world is MVP Arguably, the best Protoss in the world is MC This isn't even a response to what I said. Your attempt to derail this argument into a subjective argument about the best players has nothing to do with the overall competitiveness of the tournament. It wouldn't matter if a Korean had 100% ladder win percentage and won every GSL without losing a game, because that does not make every other Korean better by proxy. I restate, there are just as many good foreigners as Koreans. You could make an argument for Naniwa or Whitera/Jinro/IdrA over those three if you wanted. Not only that, but your original argument that a Zerg has won 3/5 tournaments is an obviously flawed statistic in that 5 tournaments is a laughably small sample size to be making broad generalizations about Zerg being balanced. It is also flawed in that those 3 wins happened in different patches than the one we are in now and the first one was seen as an amazing run by FruitDealer. Looking at more recent tournament results, such as GSL3/January, Zergs have been getting demolished, with 0 in the semis of each. | ||
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Wunder
United Kingdom2950 Posts
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Ulfsark
United States958 Posts
I was mistaken. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote: Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community. TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums. You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play. Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered. You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two, talented, but still biased Zerg players? You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the tech path of choice to get somewhere without being flat-out overrun. Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now. Very well written. They need other representatives of Protoss and Terran in the show to make it more credible. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote: Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play. In their defense the discussion came across as fairly unbiased to me. The majority of the discussion landing on ZvP struck me as purely coincidental as TvP does seem balanced and there's not too much balance discussing to be done on mirror matchups. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote: Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community. TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums. You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play. Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered. You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players? You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the tech path of choice to get somewhere without being flat-out overrun. Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now. This is a good post, and should be read by everyone in the thread. Rather or not the show is even informative, it's going to basically take a huge dump all over the Starcraft community. Obsessive balance whining is the poison that kills competitive games. | ||
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eLiE
Canada1039 Posts
EDIT: As are you, IdrA :D | ||
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sykBelieve
22 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote: Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community. TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums. You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play. Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered. You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players? You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the tech path of choice to get somewhere without being flat-out overrun. Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now. Well said.... | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:28 StarcraftMan wrote: And MVP had easy opponents too? Because Nestea is an easy opponent? Oh wait, Terran is OP so MVP beating Nestea was not related to MVP's skills, rofl. You honestly should think before you start making arguments, because you look silly. Nestea and FD won when there were hardly any zerg in the tournament, while MVP won when the tournament was Terran dominated. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:39 iEchoic wrote: All of the players who played in MLG and IEM failed to go as far in the GSL. Coincidence? If I remember, both Ret and Haypro got cheesed to lose their matches. Jinro has had 2 consecutive semi runs after winning MLG Dallas, and IdrA is still a really strong Code S player after winning MLG DC. Everyone else who has tried has failed in Qualifiers, with even Korean heavyweights like TSL_Trickster having a hard time in those. Not only that, but if Korean were better by Default, then Code S member oGsTOP should have ran through Dreamhack, but did he win? No. But still, this argument is even more pointless than the other one I'm having because not enough foreigners have played in Korea, and vice-versa, for there to be any relevant discussion on the merits of one group over another. It is completely arguable, and perhaps even due to the fact that the two groups play the game in different ways as a whole. Koreans, as we've been shown, are much more likely to all-in than the more macro-favored West. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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shire
United States405 Posts
oh and also i see 'Han Gul' table in the background. i guess some one is learning how to read Korean? i wonder who's apt video was taken from. | ||
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GypsyBeast
Canada630 Posts
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Rodregeus
Australia126 Posts
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oppS
Canada28 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Suxces
Germany103 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote: Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community. TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums. You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play. Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered. You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players? You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the unit of choice to survive through midgame. Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now. absolutely THIS! | ||
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Suerte
United States117 Posts
You can't just grab one unit and say is this overpowered or not, you have to look at the game as a whole. Hopefully this kind of idea gets to Artosis so the content can improve drastically. Rather than looking at one unit and saying is it imbalanced, look at how necessary the unit is as a linchpin to the strategy. Such as saying why the Protoss doesn't want to engage the Zerg army until it reaches then max food army with a solid force and analyze the reasons why. | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
I agree about the map size issue, but I think they skirted a major issue with colossi, which is that it forces P to keep their army together. I think if zerg players take advantage of their mobility colossi might be much less of a problem. I also think that the fact that protoss has a strong unit that's slow to build but makes close-to-max armies hard to beat is not necessarily a bad thing. I feel like people have these ideas of how the game should be played to make it fair for all races, but TBH it doesn't matter if it's 'fair' as long as it's equally possible to win in each matchup. Imagine how people could complain about BW: 'Terran is too strong -- they are impossible to beat if they get maxed. In TvZ you have to muta harass Terran to keep them in their base because you can't even engage until you tech up to hive -- and then the mutas are useless!. It's not fair.' 'Templar tech is too strong -- in TvP you can't go bio at all because storm and archons are too powerful -- you have to go mech and terran should have more options. It's not fair.' 'Defilers are too strong -- in TvZ you HAVE to get science vessels and kill defilers as FAST as you can because if zerg gets too many you get destroyed by zerglings and ultralisks. It's not fair.' The matchups will be what they will be. I don't think colossus tech is giving people a ton of trouble in the GSLs right now... and until Protoss sweeps the GSL off colossus abuse or I'm not going to worry about it too much. And you don't hear about people cheesing their way into masters by abusing colossi. | ||
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DamnCats
United States1472 Posts
Posted in this thread since its a balance whine fest anyways and when theres whining you can BET YOUR ASS ILL BE THERE ;D User was warned for this post | ||
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