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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
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On February 03 2011 11:12 EternaL_9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:09 iEchoic wrote:
This show could actually be informative and interesting if they had one representative for each race. It would still have a terrible effect on the community, and would just shift the argument even more towards balance, but at least it would be informative and even. SC2 isn't going to grow as an esport if every match ends with a balance discussion. It's no different than a sport being plagued by crooked refs.
If they do the next one with a T and P player I'd watch it happily. Artosis plays protoss now... did you even watch it? Do they need a terran player to be there so he can say "hah, you noobs need to stop qqing l2p your race"?
Do you even watch Artosis in the GSL? He is very biased against Terran.
They really need even representation from each race to make the show credible. Maybe have a credible rep for each race like Huk for Protoss, and Jinro for Terran, along with Idra to discuss this next time.
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A show with idra and artosis bitching about balance? Best 30 minutes of my life.
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I don't see how people can consider this whining, while I don't agree with everything, it's reasonable and they are 200x better than me so I can assume they know what they are talking about.
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On February 03 2011 11:04 Cyanocyst wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 10:27 prOxi.swAMi wrote:
"Zerg are so underpowered, nerf terran!"
*Zergs dominate GSL*
"You can't say Zerg are fine just because they won GSLs!"
*Terrans dominate GSL*
"OMG, Terran is raping GSL, look how many terrans! Clearly overpowered! There's no zerg representation!"
OK Zerg users, spell it out for us. Are we, or are we not allowed to infer balance conclusions from GSLs? Because once upon a time, we weren't allowed. But now that's what you're doing. Is it because it's convenient to do so now?
So transparent. When did Zerg dominate GSL? FD was the only Zerg in the top 8 of gsl 1. Gsl 2 had more Zerg, but it was comparable to the amount of Terrans in the later rounds. GSl 3 Zergs were prevalent in the early stages. But only 2 made it to the round of 8 where they died. Gsl 4 only 3 zergs made it past the first group stage. One wasn't legit due to the fact it was a 3Z group. Currently Terran has yet to miss a finals, and has been quite prevalent in the later stages of GSL.
Hit the nail on the head.
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pretty good and interresting show, looking forward to that :D!
thanks PROS!
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The reason that zergs aren't the most played race isn't because it's underpowered and we can't win. I think that in general because zerg is a slightly harder race to play. From a noob's perspective, you can make say 3 racks for terran, or 4 gates, and cue up units from buildings and then they make units. With zerg, you need by far the best economy, you need to have enough apm to keep spawning larva, and making units from hatches. Also, we don't really have any somewhat feasible power unit. We are the massing race. We win by sheer numbers, not by tech like the protoss. It takes a lot longer to get out broodlords and ultras than it takes to get collossus or hts. Also, ultras are melee, so you basically can't do anything with them unless you get a surrounds, mega upgrades, and probably FG on them. It's rare to find an ultra mid game with 15 + kills but its pretty standard for a protoss to beat roach hydraing player going for the collossus death ball and having collossus with like 20 plus kills.
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Great video! Looking forward to more!
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I agree with most of the points Idra and Artosis made. However I believe the Colossus is not "Imbalanced", but required.
In any of the Protoss matchups, I feel obligated to invest in Robotics for numerous reasons, but primarily the Colossus. Gateway units alone do not cut it against Terran, Zerg or Protoss. If I could play PvT where I could go incredibly Gateway heavy to beat terran going bio, I would. The way that Zealots and Stalkers are, they are just not very good alone against Terran. Zealot/Stalker is a fine mix for early PvP (Infact, probably your only mix early on), and quite good in PvZ, atleast until Hydralisks are an option.
I agree that when Colossus get into high numbers (Usually 4+) that they become a problem to deal with. The Protoss death ball, as it is dubbed, is that way because (in my opinion) it is one of the only ways Protoss can win in a Macro-style game against Terran, Protoss, and Zerg. There are numerous rushes and attacks Protoss can do against Zerg, and Terran but the same goes for the opposite.
I feel without the Colossus, Protoss is not going to be competitive. The long path to High Templars (Which you need High Templars, or Colossus to deal with Terran Bio, or Zerg) dictates a stop at Colossus, but why would you make HT's when you can just continue with Colossus production and have a much faster and more lethal army?
Removal of reliance on Colossus would be an excellent thing.
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need that cool green screen again ^^
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On February 03 2011 11:16 Terminator(471) wrote:
The reason that zergs aren't the most played race isn't because it's underpowered and we can't win.
Winner of GSL Season 1 = Zerg
Winner of GSL Season 2 = Zerg
Winner of GOM All Star Invitational = Zerg
Winner of GSL Season 3 = Protoss
Winner of GSL Season 4 = Terran
Zerg has won 3/5 of the most prestigious GOM tournaments with the best players in the world. And no, I won't count IEM or MLG because those tournaments are 1 class below GOM tournaments.
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zvp is acutally favored for z, watch when a good z switchs over and starts owning everyone
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On February 03 2011 11:20 TT1 wrote:
zvp is acutally favored for z, watch when an a good z actually switchs over and starts owning everyone
I remember when you streamed thinking zerg was easiest race and you lost haha good times ^^.
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On February 03 2011 11:20 TT1 wrote:
zvp is acutally favored for z, watch when an a good z actually switchs over and starts owning everyone
Agree with TT1. They should invite you on the show TT1, maybe by Skype or video conferencing.
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On February 03 2011 11:15 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:11 Serpico wrote:
Seems like a lot of people here are upset that two players with more knowledge than them are tackling imbalance in a reasonable manner. They also seem to have neglected to listen to what idra and artosis mean by imbalanced, they don't mean broken or needs a huge nerf...... they were trying to say that in comparison to other protoss units the collosus SEEMS (note: they weren't talking like this was gospel and not going to change as people get better) to be far more powerful. In other words, if it was slightly less good or other units were slightly better then ZvP and PvP might not revelove around collosus so much.... They also mentioned they think bigger maps MIGHT solve it, but no one knows yet, Artosis was even on the fence about the issue in ZvP.
Ya I dont think they understand how hesitant idra and artosis were to just say things were imbalanced in the first place after defining what they meant. People need to pay attention to how artosis and idra are using the word imbalanced and what their definition of it is. They use their own preconceived notion of imbalanced and freak out when idra and artosis say it.
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Artosis and Idra in a video? Thats all thats needed for me to get my favorite nerd-fix.
The fact that they're talking about their favorite topic is just so great :D
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On February 03 2011 11:20 TT1 wrote:
zvp is acutally favored for z, watch when an a good z actually switchs over and starts owning everyone
We already have good zergs though.
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On February 03 2011 11:20 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:16 Terminator(471) wrote:
The reason that zergs aren't the most played race isn't because it's underpowered and we can't win. Winner of GSL Season 1 = Zerg Winner of GSL Season 2 = Zerg Winner of GOM All Star Invitational = Zerg Winner of GSL Season 3 = Protoss Winner of GSL Season 4 = Terran Zerg has won 3/5 of the most prestigious GOM tournaments with the best players in the world. And no, I won't count IEM or MLG because those tournaments are 1 class below GOM tournaments.
There's a thing called metagame. And patches. Both of which have happened since zerg won tournaments. Ask Idra, they had easy opponents on their way up anyways.
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On February 03 2011 11:15 Seraphic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:03 Tachion wrote:On February 03 2011 10:55 Seraphic wrote:
honestly? In most of every match up Protoss has. In SC2, it's all about the Colossus, Protoss has no other unit that is always needed in every match up. You nerf the Colossus, then you damn better buff all there other units because pure Gateway Units will get you no where in the late game. Immortals are great yes but they have a weak spot. Heavy Immortals will die to mass Zerg swarm eventually, costing so much it's hard to get them in big numbers. 4x cost to lings who massacre Immortals.
Any smart Zerg can get pass pure Gateway units, Terran will have NO problem dealing with them either.
Without Colossus, Protoss will have basically nothing but Gateway Units. They touch a little on that in the video, how reliant the Protoss is on colossus in every match-up. Is that a problem though? If the colossus was perfectly balanced as a unit, should it be weakened, and Protoss buffed in other areas of their play so their match-ups don't stagnate into the same colossus/gateway support army in every single match-up? I realize of course that some Protoss are mixing in air units with their gateway army as well, but it still all centers around the colossus being there to dish out damage. It seems like it would be beneficial to the entertainment value and diversity of gameplay if there were other stable, viable options for Protoss to tech to besides colossus. The only thing I can see if rebuffing HT Storms. And make Colossus weaker in terms of either splash, or damage. No Protoss uses Storms now because you can get out of Storms so easily with decent micro. Yes the Protoss are very reliant on Colossus because Blizzard made it so they have to get that unit on ground. Like I said, you take out the Colossus and replace it with Storms, the ground Protoss army will still lose unless the other player doesn't move when getting Stormed. Void Rays die quick without good control. Might I add, the perfect unit combination is extremely costly for the Protoss. Having the Colossus AND Void Ray in the army. No player should allow a Protoss to max out like that regardless.
Storm is still very powerful in lategame PvT. It was at the point not too long ago that Blizz talked about nerfing storm so that T didn't get dominated by P so badly as the game continues on longer and longer. If you buff storm for PvZ, it'd break PvT even more. I'm really not sure where the buff should come from to be honest.
Maybe if they made templar tech faster/more accessible we'd see more of it. The reason most all P's go colossus first and then transition into HT(at least for PvT) is because it's faster and safer than going straight from gateway units to HT.
I'm not really sure why P's don't use HT in PvZ. I haven't seen those in a ladder games in, literally, 2+ months :O I don't even remember why P's don't use them anymore. What is it about PvT that makes HT more powerful than colossus in the lategame, but not PvZ? feedback on medivacs? A way to avoid the vikings?
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On February 03 2011 11:25 EternaL_9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:20 StarcraftMan wrote:On February 03 2011 11:16 Terminator(471) wrote:
The reason that zergs aren't the most played race isn't because it's underpowered and we can't win. Winner of GSL Season 1 = Zerg Winner of GSL Season 2 = Zerg Winner of GOM All Star Invitational = Zerg Winner of GSL Season 3 = Protoss Winner of GSL Season 4 = Terran Zerg has won 3/5 of the most prestigious GOM tournaments with the best players in the world. And no, I won't count IEM or MLG because those tournaments are 1 class below GOM tournaments. There's a thing called metagame. And patches. Both of which have happened since zerg won tournaments. Ask Idra, they had easy opponents on their way up anyways.
And MVP had easy opponents too? Because Nestea is an easy opponent? Oh wait, Terran is OP so MVP beating Nestea was not related to MVP's skills, rofl.
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idra is probably the most biased player out there
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EPT
