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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 03 2011 10:59 JoeSchmoe wrote:
Watched the intro. I'm not convinced by the arguments at all.
You have 2 zergs talking about balance in ALL the matchups and unsurprisingly it turns out colossus is overpowered in PvZ. Big surprise.
This show needs 3 hosts:
1 zerg
1 protoss
1 terran
not
2 zergs
if you actually listened to what they said....
idra said he "thinks" its OP, but there might be a way to counter it with the right unit comp
Artosis said, having played both sides, he was unsure whether or not it was too powerful.
Both agreed that time will tell.
They also said collosus was atm too powerful in PvP. The main crux of their arguments for both ZvP and PvP was that the collosus was too important, that the entire match-up is based around it, and thats bad.... which it is. If virtually every PvP and ZvP ends up with collosus as the most important unit, then something is wrong.... because the same can't be said of TvP where there are multiple routes both races can take to deal with whatever the other player is doing.
In TvP I play as many games where there is only ever 1-2 collosus in the entire game as when there are alot of immortals or HT's or air units instead. I can't say the same about PvZ or PvP.
I really wish people would listen to what they actually said instead of selective deafness where you don't hear "think its OP" and instead just hear "its OP"
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On February 03 2011 11:07 GenoZStriker wrote:
Some people have not seen the videos at all based on the comments.
They are QQing about Colosus being OP in the video, especially against Zerg. These are two Zerg players mind you (Artosis is a Zerg player by heart, even if he is using Protoss now).
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On February 03 2011 11:07 Gentso wrote:
You can tell by the look on Idra's face that he's super pumped to start talking imbalanced right as it turns on
yeah most that have posted in here have not watched the whole thing they saw idra + artosis and auto hated it  . But whatever I liked it can't wait for episode 2 ^^.
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On February 03 2011 09:46 JiYan wrote:
genuine curiosity here, is this meant to be an entertainment type of show or a "lets get down to business and talk serious" kind of show.
haha, when i first read the title, the video discriptiona nd saw the first frame in freeze, i seriously thought they were mocking themselves...
:D
On a serious note, while i think that kind of show format might be kinda nice, calling it "imbalanced" and solely focusing on it is a bad idea, and would do better with something like "current metagame report" or something along those lines
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This show could actually be informative and interesting if they had one representative for each race. It would still have a terrible effect on the community, and would just shift the argument even more towards balance, but at least it would be informative and even. SC2 isn't going to grow as an esport if every match ends with a balance discussion. It's no different than a sport being plagued by crooked refs.
If they do the next one with a T and P player I'd watch it happily.
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Oh no..
EDIT: The show's insignificant to any of us, I guess the point of it is for Blizzard to see this, and do something about it? It's unlikely it'll go noticed by them. But I think they'll continue to fix "imbalance". Maybe some good can be done by the show? I stopped watching once I saw Artosis and Idra, I just think it's sort of funny that whenever balance is being talked about on a large scale in the pro scene it's always Idra or Artosis, or InControl talking about it, maybe if some refreshing faces stood up and talked about it, it'd make a more compelling statement.
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Seems like a lot of people here are upset that two players with more knowledge than them are tackling imbalance in a reasonable manner.
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On February 03 2011 09:44 Artosis wrote:
Introducing a new show....a show about Imbalance! IdrA and Artosis will be your hosts.
I stopped reading after Imbalance and Idra.
User was warned for this post
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On February 03 2011 11:09 iEchoic wrote:
This show could actually be informative and interesting if they had one representative for each race. It would still have a terrible effect on the community, and would just shift the argument even more towards balance, but at least it would be informative and even. SC2 isn't going to grow as an esport if every match ends with a balance discussion. It's no different than a sport being plagued by crooked refs.
If they do the next one with a T and P player I'd watch it happily.
Artosis plays protoss now... did you even watch it?
Do they need a terran player to be there so he can say "hah, you noobs need to stop qqing l2p your race"?
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"a show about Imbalance! IdrA and Artosis will be your hosts."
Hahaha oh god.
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Looks like a great show can't wait for the new episodes!
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This is always so entertaining. Not that I don't agree at least partially with IdrA, but how much more can you whine?
As a footnote: Isn't it that most people play the race that they think of being the weakest? Or was it the other way around?
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Great video, and made me think that a lot of the issues with collosus is the response they force is very delicate and predictable, you make too many corrupters and to a lesser extent, vikings, and your ground army simply dies while your units in the air float and watch, if you make too few however, your anti-collosus unit gets focused by stalkers and what not and then you die a horrible death to collosus.
And even then when you're matching their collosus production perfectly with your anti-collosus unit, you still need to be able to feel out when they start switching into high-templar tech with stalker immortal support or else you'll have a lot of corrupter/vikings which don't fair too well afterwards.
IMHO, imbalanced? Probably not, but its certainly appears that the collosus is the pivot in which the protoss MU's mid-games are centered around and it really forces games to go down a path of collosus and dealing with collosus, which therefore removes a lot of variety that could otherwise exist.
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I would much rather this thread be made "Admin chat" only or something.
We all know how balance talk ends up.
A flames B. B discredits A's point, A comes up with false reasonings, B gets mad at A, A gets mad at B. Everyone gets mad at either A or B.
Balance is a serious topic, but there are too many "fanboys" of race around.
Its hard to be subjective for things you take personally. I'm a fan of the premise of the show.
Get someone like Jinro to portrey Terran, get someone like HuK to portrey protoss, and talk this shit out. Possibly even get TLO to have the "ace" point, as playing random would give him a different insight.
From here, artosis should play host, ask the questions, direct the conversation, ask players opinions, rather than particularly flat out give his own. ie; "But, HuK, wouldn't you say that past the mid-game, Colosis is the only way to deal with whatever Zerg have?"
This way, you can hold opinion, but give someone a chance to defend - real debate.
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amazing. my new favorite show for sure man this is gonna be awesome.
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On February 03 2011 11:12 EternaL_9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:09 iEchoic wrote:
This show could actually be informative and interesting if they had one representative for each race. It would still have a terrible effect on the community, and would just shift the argument even more towards balance, but at least it would be informative and even. SC2 isn't going to grow as an esport if every match ends with a balance discussion. It's no different than a sport being plagued by crooked refs.
If they do the next one with a T and P player I'd watch it happily. Do they need a terran player to be there so he can say "hah, you noobs need to stop qqing l2p your race"?
That's totally what I meant, way to contribute.
And no, Artosis doesn't count as a P player. I mean a pro-level P who mains P and hasn't played Z 4 times as long.
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On February 03 2011 11:03 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 10:55 Seraphic wrote:
honestly? In most of every match up Protoss has. In SC2, it's all about the Colossus, Protoss has no other unit that is always needed in every match up. You nerf the Colossus, then you damn better buff all there other units because pure Gateway Units will get you no where in the late game. Immortals are great yes but they have a weak spot. Heavy Immortals will die to mass Zerg swarm eventually, costing so much it's hard to get them in big numbers. 4x cost to lings who massacre Immortals.
Any smart Zerg can get pass pure Gateway units, Terran will have NO problem dealing with them either.
Without Colossus, Protoss will have basically nothing but Gateway Units. They touch a little on that in the video, how reliant the Protoss is on colossus in every match-up. Is that a problem though? If the colossus was perfectly balanced as a unit, should it be weakened, and Protoss buffed in other areas of their play so their match-ups don't stagnate into the same colossus/gateway support army in every single match-up? I realize of course that some Protoss are mixing in air units with their gateway army as well, but it still all centers around the colossus being there to dish out damage. It seems like it would be beneficial to the entertainment value and diversity of gameplay if there were other stable, viable options for Protoss to tech to besides colossus.
The only thing I can see if rebuffing HT Storms. And make Colossus weaker in terms of either splash, or damage. No Protoss uses Storms now because you can get out of Storms so easily with decent micro. Yes the Protoss are very reliant on Colossus because Blizzard made it so they have to get that unit on ground. Like I said, you take out the Colossus and replace it with Storms, the ground Protoss army will still lose unless the other player doesn't move when getting Stormed.
Void Rays die quick without good control. Might I add, the perfect unit combination is extremely costly for the Protoss. Having the Colossus AND Void Ray in the army. No player should allow a Protoss to max out like that regardless.
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On February 03 2011 11:11 Serpico wrote:
Seems like a lot of people here are upset that two players with more knowledge than them are tackling imbalance in a reasonable manner.
They also seem to have neglected to listen to what idra and artosis mean by imbalanced, they don't mean broken or needs a huge nerf...... they were trying to say that in comparison to other protoss units the collosus SEEMS (note: they weren't talking like this was gospel and not going to change as people get better) to be far more powerful. In other words, if it was slightly less good or other units were slightly better then ZvP and PvP might not revelove around collosus so much....
They also mentioned they think bigger maps MIGHT solve it, but no one knows yet, Artosis was even on the fence about the issue in ZvP.
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I love the whole infomercial feel this has to it where you alternate speaking between the two of you as if it was a 2d grade presentation lolol. I'm definitely watching this.
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Cmon Artosis, get Huk and Spades or some other terran next time. You guys did excellently, but no one will take you seriously (although they should) if it's you and Idra.Plus, surely you must think that other race opinions would be important.
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EPT
