EPT[G] TvP 2 Thor Push - Page 16
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j4ck3d
93 Posts
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Problem2o3
United States32 Posts
On December 09 2010 06:36 galzohar wrote: Anyone tried this on the PTR? Did the change turn this from extremely powerful down to something that is still useful, or did it make this build useless? When I first saw the new changes this build was the first that came to mind. I would HOPE that with the new changes, it would buff P against/nerf T using this build. 2 gate stargate pumping out a few VRs should have about 3 by the time the thor push gets there and a phoenix to scout. The VR damage buff in combination with some gateway units pounding away at the SCVs without having to individually target them | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 30 2010 04:52 Vaporized wrote: what is it about this build that makes it so difficult to stop? i play zerg and have not come up against this build. it really seems like something is going to get nerfed in this build, just curious what exactly is so troublesome. The only unit P has at that time that's strong against a thor+marine composition is the zealot, but zealot AI gets bugged out by the SCV repair surround. Zerg doesn't have the same problem. Zerglings are fast enough to hit the marines. Roaches are decent against thors and their range attack doesn't bug out. Banelings kill the SCVs without having to individually click each one. It's still decently strong against Zerg tho. It's just borderline impossible to stop as P. | ||
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Victim
United States188 Posts
With a longer rush distance, the DTs would have been up sooner (relative to my army reaching his natural) and could harass more easily on the path between bases, so they'd be even more effective. Thus far, they've been the most successful followup to 1 Gate FE at stopping the Thor rush. However, that applied when we just working out what stops the Thor rush - he was playing mostly blind to my tech. A PDD push building behind the wall would wreck that DT transition, and look mostly the same from the front, even if a gas steal would slow it down somewhat. Note that I've been using a slightly different build then the one listed in the OP - I add a second rax so I get more marines, don't get plating, and only add the hellion after the 2nd thor finishes since it can generally reach the slow army just in time for the battle that way (so I am a bit more blind). I like marines; they tend to be pretty good against most of things good at killing Thors.  | ||
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Roblicious
United States64 Posts
On December 09 2010 07:54 Avid221 wrote: I am pretty sure the phoenix would be killed almost immediately by marines. I don't believe the immortals can be lifted while the cannons are going off since they are stunned (correct me if I'm wrong). If they were lifted before the cannons, the thors would have free reign over the other units since immortals are the main damage dealers to thors and the thors could just cannon them after the lift was over. So unless im wrong about them being lifted while stunned, phoenix are pretty useless. You can lift them into the air with phoenixes during the 250mm firing from the thors There are a few replays showing it can be done and I have done it once in a custom just to try myself and it does work. Always throws the terran in a loop when they see the toss using phoenixes on his own units :p | ||
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siggy
United States39 Posts
The only way ive been successful in defending this is to pull probes and have them help kill off the scvs and marines. | ||
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DoomInASuit
United States23 Posts
11 Refinery 13 Move SCV To Gas 13 Barracks (Naked) 13 Move SCV To Gas 15 Move SCV To Gas 17 Refinery 17 Orbital Command 17 Marine 18 Move SCV To Gas 18 Supply Depot 18 Factory (Naked) 18 Move SCV To Gas 18 Move SCV To Gas 19 Marine 20 Calldown MULE 22 Marine 23 Armory 23 Hellion 26 Supply Depot Waypoint 1 satisfied: 5:00.00: 47M 238G 33E 26/ 27S Income: 651M 215G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory Units: 20 SCV 3 Marine Research: Waypoint 2 satisfied: 5:13.69: 157M 287G 41E 27/ 27S Income: 735M 215G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory Units: 21 SCV 3 Marine 1 Hellion Research: 27 Factory Tech Lab 27 Supply Depot 27 Move SCV To Gas 29 Calldown MULE 29 Thor 35 Marine 37 Vehicle Plating 1 38 Marine 39 Supply Depot 40 Marine 41 Thor 48 250mm Strike Cannons 48 Supply Depot 48 Calldown MULE 49 Marine 51 Supply Depot 51 Marine 53 Thor 59 Marine 62 Marine 63 Calldown MULE Waypoint 3 satisfied: 8:48.69: 932M 229G 12E 64/ 67S Income: 1036M 228G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Armory 1 Tech Lab Units: 33 SCV 10 Marine 1 Hellion 3 Thor Research: 250mm Strike Cannons Vehicle Plating 1 push about when you think cannon and plating will be done when you reach the opponent's base. The 3rd thor should be done about when you arrive at your opponent's base (the 8:49 mark). this BO was based on a program: 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 11S - Build SCV 0:19.00: 69M 0G 0E 6/ 11S - Build SCV 0:36.00: 91M 0G 0E 7/ 11S - Build SCV 0:53.00: 124M 0G 0E 8/ 11S - Build SCV 0:57.90: 100M 0G 0E 9/ 11S - Build Supply Depot 1:10.00: 57M 0G 0E 9/ 11S - Build SCV 1:27.00: 101M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - Build SCV 1:31.09: 75M 0G 0E 11/ 19S - Build Refinery 1:44.00: 79M 0G 0E 11/ 19S - Build SCV 2:01.00: 149M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - Build SCV 2:01.09: 99M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 2:07.94: 150M 3G 0E 13/ 19S - Build Barracks (Naked) 2:07.94: 0M 3G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 2:18.00: 60M 15G 0E 13/ 19S - Build SCV 2:35.00: 129M 36G 0E 14/ 19S - Build SCV 2:35.00: 79M 36G 0E 15/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 2:52.00: 199M 67G 0E 15/ 19S - Build SCV 3:09.00: 280M 99G 0E 16/ 19S - Build SCV 3:09.00: 230M 99G 0E 17/ 19S - Build Refinery 3:26.00: 296M 132G 0E 17/ 19S - Build Orbital Command 3:26.00: 146M 132G 0E 17/ 19S - Build Marine 3:39.00: 215M 156G 0E 18/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 3:39.00: 215M 156G 0E 18/ 19S - Build Supply Depot 3:43.69: 150M 167G 0E 18/ 19S - Build Factory (Naked) 3:43.69: 0M 67G 0E 18/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 3:43.69: 0M 67G 0E 18/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 4:01.00: 106M 127G 50E 18/ 19S - Build SCV 4:09.00: 107M 155G 55E 19/ 27S - Build Marine 4:09.00: 57M 155G 55E 20/ 27S - Calldown MULE 4:18.00: 135M 187G 10E 20/ 27S - Build SCV 4:35.00: 268M 248G 19E 21/ 27S - Build SCV 4:35.00: 218M 248G 19E 22/ 27S - Build Marine 4:43.69: 267M 280G 24E 23/ 27S - Build Armory 4:43.69: 117M 180G 24E 23/ 27S - Build Hellion 4:52.00: 106M 209G 29E 25/ 27S - Build SCV 4:55.69: 100M 223G 31E 26/ 27S - Build Supply Depot Waypoint 1 satisfied: 5:00.00: 47M 238G 33E 26/ 27S Income: 651M 215G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory Units: 20 SCV 3 Marine Research: 5:09.00: 151M 270G 38E 26/ 27S - Build SCV Waypoint 2 satisfied: 5:13.69: 157M 287G 41E 27/ 27S Income: 735M 215G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory Units: 21 SCV 3 Marine 1 Hellion Research: 5:13.69: 157M 287G 41E 27/ 27S - Build Factory Tech Lab 5:13.69: 107M 262G 41E 27/ 27S - Build Supply Depot 5:13.69: 7M 262G 41E 27/ 27S - Move SCV To Gas 5:26.00: 137M 308G 48E 27/ 35S - Build SCV 5:43.00: 287M 373G 57E 28/ 35S - Build SCV 5:43.00: 237M 373G 57E 29/ 35S - Calldown MULE 5:48.69: 300M 395G 11E 29/ 43S - Build Thor 5:52.35: 50M 209G 13E 35/ 43S - Build Marine 6:00.00: 108M 238G 17E 36/ 43S - Build SCV 6:02.94: 100M 249G 19E 37/ 43S - Research Vehicle Plating 1 6:17.00: 208M 202G 27E 37/ 43S - Build SCV 6:17.35: 163M 204G 27E 38/ 43S - Build Marine 6:17.35: 113M 204G 27E 39/ 43S - Build Supply Depot 6:34.00: 255M 267G 36E 39/ 43S - Build SCV 6:42.35: 332M 299G 41E 40/ 43S - Build Marine 6:48.69: 379M 323G 44E 41/ 51S - Build Thor 6:51.00: 114M 131G 46E 47/ 51S - Build SCV 6:56.32: 150M 152G 49E 48/ 51S - Research 250mm Strike Cannons 7:02.39: 100M 25G 52E 48/ 51S - Build Supply Depot 7:02.39: 0M 25G 52E 48/ 51S - Calldown MULE 7:08.00: 94M 46G 5E 48/ 51S - Build SCV 7:08.31: 50M 47G 5E 49/ 51S - Build Marine 7:25.00: 297M 111G 15E 50/ 51S - Build SCV 7:25.00: 247M 111G 15E 51/ 51S - Build Supply Depot 7:33.31: 280M 142G 19E 51/ 59S - Build Marine 7:42.00: 374M 175G 24E 52/ 59S - Build SCV 7:48.69: 436M 201G 28E 53/ 59S - Build Thor 7:58.31: 299M 37G 33E 59/ 67S - Build Marine 7:59.00: 260M 40G 34E 60/ 67S - Build SCV 8:16.00: 503M 104G 43E 61/ 67S - Build SCV 8:23.31: 579M 132G 48E 62/ 67S - Build Marine 8:27.67: 605M 149G 50E 63/ 67S - Calldown MULE 8:33.00: 704M 169G 3E 63/ 67S - Build SCV Waypoint 3 satisfied: 8:48.69: 932M 229G 12E 64/ 67S Income: 1036M 228G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Armory 1 Tech Lab Units: 33 SCV 10 Marine 1 Hellion 3 Thor Research: 250mm Strike Cannons Vehicle Plating 1 | ||
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sablja
17 Posts
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
Waypoint 3 satisfied: 8:48.69: 932M 229G 12E 64/ 67S Income: 1036M 228G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Armory 1 Tech Lab Units: 33 SCV 10 Marine 1 Hellion 3 Thor Research: 250mm Strike Cannons Vehicle Plating 1 i know a better one: 0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 11S - Build SCV 0:19.00: 73M 0G 0E 7/ 11S - Build SCV 0:36.00: 106M 0G 0E 8/ 11S - Build SCV 0:53.00: 150M 0G 0E 9/ 11S - Build SCV 0:53.03: 100M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - Build Supply Depot 1:10.00: 91M 0G 0E 10/ 11S - Build SCV 1:27.00: 147M 0G 0E 11/ 19S - Build SCV 1:27.00: 97M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - Build Refinery 1:44.00: 139M 0G 0E 12/ 19S - Build SCV 1:51.96: 150M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Build Barracks (Naked) 1:57.00: 32M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 1:57.00: 32M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 1:57.00: 32M 0G 0E 13/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 2:01.00: 53M 4G 0E 13/ 19S - Build SCV 2:18.00: 110M 36G 0E 14/ 19S - Build SCV 2:35.00: 179M 68G 0E 15/ 19S - Build SCV 2:52.00: 261M 101G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Orbital Command 2:52.00: 111M 101G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Refinery 2:54.20: 50M 105G 0E 16/ 19S - Build Marine 3:19.20: 213M 152G 0E 17/ 19S - Build Barracks Reactor Waypoint 1 satisfied: 3:27.00: 232M 117G 50E 17/ 19S Income: 555M 114G Buildings: 2 Refinery 1 Barracks 1 Orbital Command Units: 16 SCV 1 Marine Research: 3:27.00: 232M 117G 50E 17/ 19S - Build SCV 3:27.00: 182M 117G 50E 18/ 19S - Build Supply Depot 3:35.35: 150M 133G 55E 18/ 19S - Build Factory (Naked) 3:35.35: 0M 33G 55E 18/ 19S - Move SCV To Gas 3:44.00: 58M 53G 60E 18/ 19S - Build SCV 4:01.00: 140M 95G 69E 19/ 27S - Build SCV 4:01.00: 90M 95G 69E 20/ 27S - Calldown MULE 4:01.00: 90M 95G 19E 20/ 27S - Move SCV To Gas 4:09.20: 174M 118G 24E 20/ 27S - Build Marine 4:09.20: 124M 118G 24E 21/ 27S - Build Marine 4:09.20: 74M 118G 24E 22/ 27S - Move SCV To Gas 4:18.00: 169M 149G 29E 22/ 27S - Build SCV 4:35.00: 315M 210G 38E 23/ 27S - Build SCV 4:35.00: 265M 210G 38E 24/ 27S - Build Supply Depot 4:35.00: 165M 210G 38E 24/ 27S - Build Marine 4:38.39: 150M 222G 40E 25/ 27S - Build Armory 4:43.25: 50M 139G 43E 25/ 27S - Build Factory Tech Lab 4:47.57: 50M 130G 45E 25/ 27S - Build Marine 4:52.00: 51M 146G 48E 26/ 27S - Build SCV 5:05.00: 159M 192G 55E 27/ 35S - Build Marine 5:05.00: 109M 192G 55E 28/ 35S - Calldown MULE 5:09.00: 161M 207G 7E 28/ 35S - Build SCV 5:12.57: 168M 219G 9E 29/ 35S - Build Marine 5:12.57: 118M 219G 9E 30/ 35S - Build Supply Depot 5:26.00: 229M 267G 17E 30/ 35S - Build SCV 5:30.00: 244M 282G 19E 31/ 35S - Build Marine 5:43.00: 382M 328G 27E 32/ 43S - Build SCV 5:43.39: 337M 330G 27E 33/ 43S - Build Thor 5:51.16: 150M 158G 31E 39/ 43S - Research 250mm Strike Cannons 5:54.42: 50M 19G 33E 39/ 43S - Build Marine 6:00.00: 86M 39G 36E 40/ 43S - Build SCV 6:00.94: 50M 43G 37E 41/ 43S - Build Marine 6:19.42: 293M 109G 47E 42/ 43S - Build Marine 6:19.42: 243M 109G 47E 43/ 43S - Build Barracks (Naked) 6:24.78: 176M 128G 50E 43/ 43S - Calldown Extra Supplies 6:24.78: 176M 128G 0E 43/ 43S - Build Supply Depot 6:27.78: 120M 139G 2E 43/ 51S - Build Marine 6:44.84: 310M 200G 11E 44/ 51S - Build Thor 6:44.84: 10M 0G 11E 50/ 51S - Move SCV To Minerals 6:44.84: 10M 0G 11E 50/ 51S - Move SCV To Minerals 6:44.84: 10M 0G 11E 50/ 51S - Move SCV To Minerals 6:44.84: 10M 0G 11E 50/ 51S - Move SCV To Minerals 6:44.84: 10M 0G 11E 50/ 51S - Move SCV To Minerals 6:44.84: 10M 0G 11E 50/ 51S - Move SCV To Minerals 6:47.91: 50M 0G 13E 50/ 51S - Build SCV 6:54.78: 98M 0G 17E 51/ 59S - Build Marine 6:54.92: 50M 0G 17E 52/ 59S - Build Marine 6:54.92: 0M 0G 17E 53/ 59S - Move SCV To Gas 6:54.92: 0M 0G 17E 53/ 59S - Move SCV To Gas 6:54.92: 0M 0G 17E 53/ 59S - Move SCV To Gas 6:54.92: 0M 0G 17E 53/ 59S - Move SCV To Gas 6:54.92: 0M 0G 17E 53/ 59S - Move SCV To Gas 6:54.92: 0M 0G 17E 53/ 59S - Move SCV To Gas 7:04.91: 126M 29G 23E 53/ 59S - Build SCV 7:19.42: 270M 81G 31E 54/ 59S - Build Marine 7:19.78: 225M 82G 31E 55/ 59S - Build Marine 7:19.92: 177M 82G 31E 56/ 59S - Build Marine 7:21.91: 154M 90G 32E 57/ 59S - Build SCV 7:21.91: 104M 90G 32E 58/ 59S - Move SCV To Gas Waypoint 2 satisfied: 7:44.92: 418M 177G 45E 58/ 59S Income: 832M 228G Buildings: 2 Refinery 2 Barracks 1 Orbital Command 1 Factory 1 Armory 1 Reactor 1 Tech Lab Units: 29 SCV 17 Marine 2 Thor Research: 250mm Strike Cannons so if we assume 1 hellion = 2 marines, then my push is 5 marines stronger. i dont think the vehicle plating is worth the difference from 12 marines (or 10 marines 1 hellion) to 17 marines. in particular not when the patch hits and the tankability of the thors gets a serious nerf. the zealots will first kill the scvs instead of the thor, and then they will attack the thor but the scvs are gone so that armor/no armor upgrade doesnt make a difference anymore anyway. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:09 QuantumTheory wrote: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=166372 Socke made a few errors that would have absolutely demolished this. Made 2 observers = 2 more Immortals (realistically, 1 more Immortal as you should always make an obs) The probe surround, absolutely vital, these things will soak up the dps from everything, he failed to send them in for the surround when the thor was on the ramp, didn't matter though. He EXPANDED. Idk if he thought cloak banshees or cross positions Shakuras but whatever is thought process was, it didn't matter. Actually. ServanT STOMPED socke in that game and then protoss lategame imba against mech brought socke back into it. ServanT killed the expo while taking his own expo, and if he micro'd a little better (his scvs were stuck behind marines while trying to repair the thor,) he could have done way more damage to Socke. He was ahead by a mile after that rush, and this was on the longest map rush distance in the map pool. 1 gate expo is not at all good against thor rush. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
So yea.... thread = extreme hyperbole. | ||
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donkkk
44 Posts
On December 16 2010 17:40 Techno wrote: I really dislike how hyperbole this thread is. I was talking to Janook about this build, sharing my thoughts of disbelief. I was talking to him on the chat while he streamed. In the game he did the 2 thor rush and he won, but it was because the protoss fast expanded. He said that if the protoss FE's its pretty much an auto win, but if the protoss is staying on one base, he doesnt attack because one base protoss can typically hold this off. Instead, he said he likes to go 2 port banshee and expand when that happens. So yea.... thread = extreme hyperbole. will this build be viable after repair nerf ? ps. oh and also vr buff ;/ | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
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ilsamsamchil
155 Posts
This is definitely stoppable by any toss build including 2+gate expo, With or without the thor repair patch I expect this being stopped on every attempt in about 2 weeks, just gotta get moar wins before more toss finds out how to stop it. Note that I've been using a slightly different build then the one listed in the OP - I add a second rax so I get more marines, don't get plating, and only add the hellion after the 2nd thor finishes since it can generally reach the slow army just in time for the battle that way (so I am a bit more blind). I like marines; they tend to be pretty good against most of things good at killing Thors. While this is interesting, I really think getting hellion out asap for scouting is the key for this build to work, especially on ladder where people go for blind DT just because they felt like doing so. I assume you are saving scans for dts as well, so you need something to check out enemy's expo along with every corners of the map if his pylon count doesn't add up after a scan etc. I have been doing pdd/thor/banshee/marines if I feel like DTs are incoming, it's kinda like 13min 2/1/1 pdd banshee rush. I don't have solid build on it but I think it's a decent subtitude push if the thors were delayed by DTs. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Refinery 15 Orbital, Marine, Constant Marine production 16 Depot 18 Factory, @ 50% 2nd gas, @100% Armory, then Hellion, then Tech 21 Depot @100 percent Armory done, Thor, Tech Lab on Rax, Research Stim 28ish, 35ish, and 43ish Depots @ 100% Thor, 2nd Thor @100 gas, Siege mode @2nd thor, push with 12 Marines, Hellion, 2 thors, 5-6 scvs and start Siege tank and Expand By the time your Thor treks across the map, even Jungle Basin or Steppes, your Tank will have siege and be about caught up. I've beaten 4 Warp Gate and 2/3 Gate Robo with this easy money. 250 Strike Cannon is definitely "win moar", as in, busting FFs and being a nigh unkillable machine is enough. Getting Stim is HUGE against non-Colossi builds and switching to Siege allows for easy transitions. I haven't always killed with this push, but I have always wiped their army, expanded, and been unkillable. As long as you scout properly and don't try to push against more than 1 Colossus, you should be fine. If they have Colossi, they haven't expanded, so expand and you have your tanks to cover your ass. The Tank+Stim plan is the most stable plan, I believe, because you have armory for a fast +1 Vehicle weapons, and can throw down 2-3 more Rax, a Reactor Starport, and go MMM-Tank to hold off any pushes and take a fast third. With as many people getting fast HTs are they are these days, I believe that without Tanks, MMM is too weak to take a 3rd base safely. 2 base Protoss has so many strong options, that Tanking up and losing some mobility is the correct choice for staying economically ahead. | ||
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Victim
United States188 Posts
On December 17 2010 00:53 ilsamsamchil wrote: While this is interesting, I really think getting hellion out asap for scouting is the key for this build to work, especially on ladder where people go for blind DT just because they felt like doing so. I assume you are saving scans for dts as well, so you need something to check out enemy's expo along with every corners of the map if his pylon count doesn't add up after a scan etc. Maybe my play is lacking, but I don't really expect to notice pylons unless it's one of the first few. Even without a need to hide tech, I still prefer to build depots in areas around the edge of my base to improve my vision; I assume that Protoss has at least same desire. Especially between warp in, and the greater likelihood that Terran going for drops or banshees that the Protoss player would want to spot. Hence I wouldn't expect all the Pylons to be in the same area anyway. Similarly, on most maps I don't think I could get the hellion into any place the Protoss is defending, so it seems only slightly more useful than sending an additional SCV scout or marine. Also, and this may be overthinking things a bit, scouting with the hellion seems like it reveals information about your own tech path that protoss would otherwise have to pay for. Most terran builds don't just randomly include hellions after all. Strategies centered on starport units that don't use Factory units usually lift the Factory and scout with that instead - revealing a hellion suggests that I'm not going for one of those builds. And it eliminates pure bio. Early tank attacks seem to get the techlab first. I mean, it's not exactly definite information, but it seems like Thor rush or hellion drop are at least roughly indicated. What exactly is the hellion supposed to find in time to make meaningful changes to the build? | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
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mDuo13
United States307 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13648 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:21 misaTO wrote: Mass chargelots with +1 will do the trick. this is how I would always go after my expo if my scouting reveals no starport. this is a one base strat I might add as well. when I beat them I put down my third and its pretty much gg after that. EDIT: erm maybe Vr's will make more sense with that boost to massive's and they can take care of tankplay really(charge on tanks roast rines when they are dead) | ||
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ilsamsamchil
155 Posts
DT being the hardcounter for this, I would really focus on scouting every possibility that the toss might be doing something out of the norm, so I can fold the 2 thor timing attack when something doesnt look/feel right. You can find offensive pylons(and possible moving forces), hidden stargate or dark shrine etc. but you are right, it makes little difference if it's a hellion or scv that's scouting. I just like the fast guy in motorcart :D | ||
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