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I always stop it with this build. IMO it requires far too much on the end of the protoss compared to the terran. My opener holds just about everything, its main flaw is transitioning to some type of aoe at a good time. Its not always easy to know when its safe to add that layer of tech.
http://rapidshare.com/files/437766980/PvT_phoenix_vs_thor_push.SC2Replay
My execution wasnt great (slow picking my immortals up, etc). His timings were pretty much the exact same as the other 50 million people that have tried this against me. If you know its coming in time its fine, but i feel that a fast phoenix is the only way to counter the 250 mm cannon and scout it in time. He fought me in a bad spot i suppose but his alternative was to take this army home and turn it into a macro game already behind. Opponent was 2250-2300 diamond or so.
Either way, you get the idea.
I think post-patch ill go back to FE vs terran due to repair nerf, but i dunno because i hate being in the dark and phoenix is a good way to know whats coming... maybe sentry expanding with hallucinate will come to be?
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On December 17 2010 15:45 Jayrod wrote:I always stop it with this build. IMO it requires far too much on the end of the protoss compared to the terran. My opener holds just about everything, its main flaw is transitioning to some type of aoe at a good time. Its not always easy to know when its safe to add that layer of tech. http://rapidshare.com/files/437766980/PvT_phoenix_vs_thor_push.SC2ReplayMy execution wasnt great (slow picking my immortals up, etc). His timings were pretty much the exact same as the other 50 million people that have tried this against me. If you know its coming in time its fine, but i feel that a fast phoenix is the only way to counter the 250 mm cannon and scout it in time. He fought me in a bad spot i suppose but his alternative was to take this army home and turn it into a macro game already behind. Opponent was 2250-2300 diamond or so. Either way, you get the idea. I think post-patch ill go back to FE vs terran due to repair nerf, but i dunno because i hate being in the dark and phoenix is a good way to know whats coming... maybe sentry expanding with hallucinate will come to be?
That game was pretty awesome. Yet again Jayrod does not disappoint with his infinite wisdom.
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1 gate FE rapes this build pretty bad, especially if followed by speedlots or void rays. And void rays do just great against thors whether they are repaired or not, especially now when they're getting bonus to massive.
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pretty sure this was designed to counter 1gate FE.
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yeah im thinking early pressure would crush this seeing as you have like 0 units till your thors are out.
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Just watched your replay Jayrod... That may be the sickest thing I've ever seen. Whoa ^^
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I have played against this build before
i was lucky i was expecting mass marine marauder
so i quickly teched up to high templar and psyonic storm and went mass chargelot high templar and i saw 3 thors coming up the ramp with scvs and marines i had 4 high tempilar and 10 - 15 zealots and 5 or so sentries i forced feilded behind the marines and scves and used my chargelots t oattac kthe front of the thors i used my psystorms on them and all the marines and scvs died and the thors had <100hp and i finshed them off with my chargelots
p.s his attack was at 11 minutes
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On December 18 2010 14:58 dooraven wrote:
I have played against this build before
i was lucky i was expecting mass marine marauder
so i quickly teched up to high templar and psyonic storm and went mass chargelot high templar and i saw 3 thors coming up the ramp with scvs and marines i had 4 high tempilar and 10 - 15 zealots and 5 or so sentries i forced feilded behind the marines and scves and used my chargelots t oattac kthe front of the thors i used my psystorms on them and all the marines and scvs died and the thors had <100hp and i finshed them off with my chargelots
p.s his attack was at 11 minutes
what u faced then was a chobo attack which has nothing to do with the timings intended in this build. the timing attack described in this thread hits at around 8.30-9.00 in the game, where its impossible to have storm or ranged colossi plus a sufficient force out. the whole idea of this build is to exploit the huge relative effectiveness of repair in small-scale battles. each second u delay the attack with such a build will reduce the impact of repair on the outcome of the battle.
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I'm finding as a general rule of thumb, go 1 gate stargate if you see either a wall off and the rax has no add on, and/or a bunker. Chrono your first phoenix to see what he's going while getting a robotics.
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i have a pretty awesome rep of a guy 2 thor rushing me on LT i had taken a secret super fast third lol and he takes out my natural and then my main (with 2 thors and some marines and scvs) all the while im rebuilding and macroing acorss the map.
the game goes into a stalemate when i kill all his scvs at his main but his army is too powerful to take on and i learn that roaches suck vs thors in small numbers.
the game is really fucking epic and i think really illustrates the mobility weakness of the thor army and the mobility bonuses of being zerg ^^. i think my final comp (and the one that worked the best) was mass speedling with a few banelings and all my gas went into mutas.
gonna post the rep tonight fo sho!!!
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great build, works every time. but the only thing i loose to with this build is fast DT because i didnt have scans. i think it will work against DTs if i have some scans saved up
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France12939 Posts
DT counters this build pretty well (even if you save scan) and I guess so do void ray builds. (even without dmg bonus)
@dooraven : quick HT don't work against this lol. One time I scouted twilight council and expected DT, I delayed my push to get raven, but HT were still here too late so I can't imagine how you will be crushed if the guy just do the push at the 8.40-9.00 mark.
Sending the probes help alot against this build btw
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This build works against some playeers, but in my experience good placed force fields counter this.
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On December 18 2010 21:55 TurK-FX wrote:
This build works against some playeers, but in my experience good placed force fields counter this.
Yea your right, let's forget that Thors walk over FF's.
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my standard buildorder of 1gate, 1 robo expand then 2 more gateways fairs quite well against this build. you can get out 3 immortals by the time they attack, along with a large stalker count. A big enough unit count to snipe the thors through repair.
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On December 18 2010 22:08 stroggos wrote:
my standard buildorder of 1gate, 1 robo expand then 2 more gateways fairs quite well against this build. you can get out 3 immortals by the time they attack, along with a large stalker count. A big enough unit count to snipe the thors through repair.
It is tested and there is no way you can get more immortal than thors by that time. Even if you get, you will be light on gateway units and marines will walk over you.
And yes, i didnt know if thors could walk over FF. I think those force fields screwed up my SCVs, so i couldnt repair thors. Next time i will try to back up little bit to break those FFs.
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On December 19 2010 16:21 TurK-FX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 22:08 stroggos wrote:
my standard buildorder of 1gate, 1 robo expand then 2 more gateways fairs quite well against this build. you can get out 3 immortals by the time they attack, along with a large stalker count. A big enough unit count to snipe the thors through repair.
It is tested and there is no way you can get more immortal than thors by that time. Even if you get, you will be light on gateway units and marines will walk over you. And yes, i didnt know if thors could walk over FF. I think those force fields screwed up my SCVs, so i couldnt repair thors. Next time i will try to back up little bit to break those FFs.
i am positive that i can get 3 immortals out by the time 2 thors get to my base
at least on 90% of maps/positions
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Out of the four or five times I've tried this build I've only done it once successfully.
2.5k toss players seem to know how to respond to it.
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Great OP, detailed and really easy to read. As long as the SCV threat is fixed, I think this would be a little easier to defend against with a more zealot heavy army.
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EPT
