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On November 28 2010 17:11 xseverityx wrote:
I wonder if putting cannons down in the mineral lines and going either charge tech or DT's could be a viable transition from 1-gate fe in response to 1-base tech build, takes care of cloak and chargelots would tear up marines+get easy surround for hold position scv kills. I just really hate going early stargate since it has no aoe transition.
Interesting idea, would like to hear some responses on this.
The only thing I don't like about it is it leaves you completely in the dark. I could see you failing pretty hard to a 2 port banshee/raven/marine push. With the heavy emphasis on zealots, PDD and banshee/marine will mop up stalkers. DT would get rolled on.
I hate being confined to go robo in almost all match ups. Hopefully in the future someone makes something like this work.
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I am interssted what ppl who meets blind DT build do, What I have tried is to wait in base with 1 turret up at wall-in. Build starbase swap star/fact to get a raven out and push right after that while expanding. Push will consist of 4 thors. I won that game but I do not feel it was optimal in that situation. Any suggestions?
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Awesome done this a few times and got 23 wins until I try this agains a mass zealot build
= instant FAIL
![[image loading]](http://us.starcraft2.com/images/wallpapers/wall9/wall9-800x600.jpg)
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On November 28 2010 17:11 xseverityx wrote:
Main issue I have with 1-gate FE is the scout timing. You'll scout the front and see marines+bunker so its gotta be this or banshee...so you HAVE to get out at LEAST 1 observer so you know if you are going to have cloak coming your way. But even if you chrono out an observer and chrono an immortal while your observer finds out what tech he went you will still be looking at best 2 immortal when the pushes arrives with fairly low gateway count. that doesn't even take into account that by not making a 2nd obs you leave yourself vulnerable if cloak finishes while your first obs is at his base and will have to cancel an immortal and wait out the observer buildtime while he rapes your probes.
I wonder if putting cannons down in the mineral lines and going either charge tech or DT's could be a viable transition from 1-gate fe in response to 1-base tech build, takes care of cloak and chargelots would tear up marines+get easy surround for hold position scv kills. I just really hate going early stargate since it has no aoe transition.
I think with a 1 gate FE build you can JUST about manage to get out 1 more immortal then they have thors with this push. If you do your usual zealot poke and see no sign of marauders / tech lab you generally want to put down the robo ASAP. Very important to scout the proxy spots in the meantime with your first few zealots and stalker (if they don't have rauders this shouldn't be risky anyways). Also when you send out the first obs having your units spaced in the popular banshee routes to your base is also vital as that way you can retreat the first obs if you see a banshee coming in.
Then if the thor isn't proxied and you chrono out the immortals immediately non stop you SHOULD be able to get 2 immo's for when the first thor arrives (you can let the expo nexus take some damage from rines + thor before you hit with all) and if they went with 2 thor you should be able to get out 3 nearly 4 immortals.
It all kind of depends on your robo timing though, what i generally do is get 2 zealots while the cyber is being made and then a stalker. After the stalker is done you should have poked with the first zealot already and you can then either make a sentry (if he went marauder) or just a robo if he stayed on rines.
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On November 30 2010 00:49 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 17:11 xseverityx wrote:
Main issue I have with 1-gate FE is the scout timing. You'll scout the front and see marines+bunker so its gotta be this or banshee...so you HAVE to get out at LEAST 1 observer so you know if you are going to have cloak coming your way. But even if you chrono out an observer and chrono an immortal while your observer finds out what tech he went you will still be looking at best 2 immortal when the pushes arrives with fairly low gateway count. that doesn't even take into account that by not making a 2nd obs you leave yourself vulnerable if cloak finishes while your first obs is at his base and will have to cancel an immortal and wait out the observer buildtime while he rapes your probes.
I wonder if putting cannons down in the mineral lines and going either charge tech or DT's could be a viable transition from 1-gate fe in response to 1-base tech build, takes care of cloak and chargelots would tear up marines+get easy surround for hold position scv kills. I just really hate going early stargate since it has no aoe transition. I think with a 1 gate FE build you can JUST about manage to get out 1 more immortal then they have thors with this push. If you do your usual zealot poke and see no sign of marauders / tech lab you generally want to put down the robo ASAP. Very important to scout the proxy spots in the meantime with your first few zealots and stalker (if they don't have rauders this shouldn't be risky anyways). Also when you send out the first obs having your units spaced in the popular banshee routes to your base is also vital as that way you can retreat the first obs if you see a banshee coming in. Then if the thor isn't proxied and you chrono out the immortals immediately non stop you SHOULD be able to get 2 immo's for when the first thor arrives (you can let the expo nexus take some damage from rines + thor before you hit with all) and if they went with 2 thor you should be able to get out 3 nearly 4 immortals. It all kind of depends on your robo timing though, what i generally do is get 2 zealots while the cyber is being made and then a stalker. After the stalker is done you should have poked with the first zealot already and you can then either make a sentry (if he went marauder) or just a robo if he stayed on rines.
I can't agree with this. I did a lot of testing with a friend and the timing is just not in favor of P. If you wait for observer to spot thor/armory, it's too late.
You basically have to go blind DT or make a mad dash to colossus to counter this build, it's that effective. If you have a replay proving me wrong, please provide it because this build makes me never want to FE vs terran again. It's almost impossible to stop if you choose to FE, and hard as hell to stop even if you don't.
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what is it about this build that makes it so difficult to stop? i play zerg and have not come up against this build. it really seems like something is going to get nerfed in this build, just curious what exactly is so troublesome.
i think something will be nerfed because of how easy this is to execute and how hard it is to stop. reapers used to be so frustrating and blizz nerfed them. i see the same happening to this build in some fashion.
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On November 30 2010 04:52 Vaporized wrote:
what is it about this build that makes it so difficult to stop? i play zerg and have not come up against this build. it really seems like something is going to get nerfed in this build, just curious what exactly is so troublesome.
i think something will be nerfed because of how easy this is to execute and how hard it is to stop. reapers used to be so frustrating and blizz nerfed them. i see the same happening to this build in some fashion.
The problem is how fast Thor build time is and repair. It's almost impossible to defeat without colossi for splash on SCV/marine or DT delaying the push all together.
Sure, you can hold position micro zealots to try to kill scv, by then half your army is dead because 10 marines and auto-repair thor are demolishing everything.
Void ray might be another viable option. I know a single charged VR can kill a thor outright even with a few SCV repairing, but you would have to count on the terran having poor marine control or splitting up his units so you catch the thor alone altogether.
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The best (or worst, depending if you are on the receiving end) thing about this build is how hard it is to micro to attack SCVs, plus a good attack that includes SCVs usually requires the opponent to use his probes which makes this even more of a micro hell for the protoss while overall the terran player has much easier micro to perform. I wouldn't be surprised if that is also why it is not seen at the absolute top levels of play, that is, because their micro is so perfect that they can overcome the problems "normal" players have when dealing with this build.
Therefore I also bet that the nerf will come in a form of modified AI, so that targeting repairing SCVs will not be as difficult (most simple would be to make SCVs that are repairing a unit/structure have an equal attack priority to the actual unit/structure they are repairing).
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what is it about this build that makes it so difficult to stop? i play zerg and have not come up against this build. it really seems like something is going to get nerfed in this build, just curious what exactly is so troublesome.
Zergs have banes to take out repairing scvs. Moreover, lings are very effective at wasting the dps of thors. Also, by the time of this thor push, zerg can have a more powerful economy than protoss.
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Anyone tried this on the PTR? Did the change turn this from extremely powerful down to something that is still useful, or did it make this build useless?
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There are actually two relevant changes in the PTR build: 1) the repairing SCV priority change, 2) the damage buff to Void Rays vs. Massive.
My experience is limited and low level, but my impression is that the build will be playable but beatable.
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How come Terran seems to be able to throw away SCVs and not instantly be thrown back on the macro side?
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a phoenix and 100 energy will do the trick :p
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On December 09 2010 07:42 kPk wrote:
a phoenix and 100 energy will do the trick :p
Phoenix can't lift massive units. I don't know what else it would do but instantly die.
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Singapore147 Posts
On December 09 2010 07:42 kPk wrote:
a phoenix and 100 energy will do the trick :p
err how will that help? phoenix can't lift thors.
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Phoenixes can lift your own unit (immortals) to dodge the strike cannon.
Which will allow your immortals not to get instagibbed, therefore allowing them to fight.
Of course, this assumes you went 2 gate-robo-stargate, and that build is so flimsy, especially when you do it blind.
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On December 09 2010 07:49 tetramaster wrote:
Phoenixes can lift your own unit (immortals) to dodge the strike cannon.
Which will allow your immortals not to get instagibbed, therefore allowing them to fight.
Of course, this assumes you went 2 gate-robo-stargate, and that build is so flimsy, especially when you do it blind.
I am pretty sure the phoenix would be killed almost immediately by marines. I don't believe the immortals can be lifted while the cannons are going off since they are stunned (correct me if I'm wrong). If they were lifted before the cannons, the thors would have free reign over the other units since immortals are the main damage dealers to thors and the thors could just cannon them after the lift was over.
So unless im wrong about them being lifted while stunned, phoenix are pretty useless.
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Cloak banshees into thor marine push with a raven, the banshees force robo tech...then the thors with strike cannons own all robo tech
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I think what makes this strong is obvious. The change from energy -> cooldown & how crazy strong the thors regular attack is. 2 attacks for base 30 damage on a fast attack speed? +3 damage for each attack with each upgrade? It is a big investment and protoss just don't have an ability like NP to change the table (now that feedback isn't doing anything to them)
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EPT
