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On December 01 2010 13:22 greendestiny wrote: Day9 said that it's worth investing in caster units, because when all resources on the map are mined out, energy (mana) becomes the only 'resource' left (and it replenishes!).
Scan 'costs' you 270 minerals.
Your two sentences are non sequiturs. All the MULEs in the world can't harvest any minerals once the map is mined out. You can't put a mineral-price on scans.
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A scan costs you either: supply or potentially 270 minerals (if my mutas dont snipe your mule) A mule costs you either: extra supply or a scan An extra supply costs you either: scan or potentially 270 minerals (if my ling runby doesn't eat your mules)
happy?
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Actually the whole "mining out the base" caveat doesn't hold.
I suppose it works if you have no mining bases at all, but you can bring down a mule at any mining base.
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Some opportunity costs of 50 energy (ie choosing one of the options "costs" you one of the other two). The description under each is not all inclusive, but just a general idea:
Scan: Information that may be worthless and increases your chances of winning the game by 0%, or info that provides that piece of the puzzle that seals the game and propels you from a 1% of winning chance to 99% (like scanning those DTs sitting in your base). Most likely something in between.
MULE: Increases your income per minute by whatever it increases it by over the next 30 seconds, which I would imagine is a function of how saturated your mineral fields are (probably not always 270, or maybe it is?). Who knows, early in the game minerals are valuable so this may give you an additional 15% chance to win? Maybe more, maybe less.
Supply: Saves 100 minerals for a supply depot, what the SCV who would be building said supply depot is doing instead, and if supply blocked, the advantage of having those units now instead of later. Maybe getting that banshee out 20-30 seconds earlier (instead of having to wait for a supply depot) seals the win and tips the game from a 50/50 to a 90/10 for you (+40%).
Bottom line, quit looking at it in terms of just minerals. You can't put a mineral value on those options (well, you could, but it probably wouldn't be that easy or accurate). Instead, look at how it increases your chances of winning the game. Given the situation, players will pick whichever option they feel will increase their chances of winning more. Like in life, people choose what makes them happiest, not necessarily richest.
Caveat: I'm not addressing the people who make decisions for their entertainment. This is assuming that players are most interested in winning.
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Sometimes, it's a LOT more important to use a scan (to scout, find cloaked stuff, etc.) than a MULE, so I'd actually say that the cost of a scan should be higher than a MULE.
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when you scan, 270 minerals do not abruptly disappear from a mineral node. you obtain those 270 minerals, but not as quickly as if you called down a mule. you are losing a potential increase in income, but the income that it brings in is not lost. therefore scans are free.
it's like asking "when you build a hatchery, does it really cost 300 minerals, or does it cost an infinite amount of minerals due to all the lost potential mining time?"
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So much ignorance...
Minerals now are worth more than minerals later. So much so, in fact, that you should make your worker count as high as possible. A mule mines 270 minerals in 90 seconds, that's approximately 3 minerals per second. A regular worker for all three races mines approximately 1 mineral per second. Using a mule means you temporarily have +3 workers. This obviously is a benefit. Otherwise why not just sit on 6 workers all game? The mineral patches will mine out eventually, so it's all a wash in the end right?
Absolutely not. Minerals you can spend are worth infinitely more than minerals in the patches. I'm puzzled why people think they can assert that a terran somehow "possesses" the entire mineral line even if they are not able to spend it, and that a mule does not actually let you spend 270 minerals you would not otherwise be able to spend.
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a mule is worth 270 minerals now because minerals NOW is worth sooo much more than minerals later. You get your income faster than your opponent. And if you think the game is exactly the same if the game will have the same outcome without those mules economically, you really aren't considering anything resembling the whole picture.
Do you think ANY early terran pressure would be as effective if they didn't have those mules? Who cares if they would've had all those minerals anyway at a later time. Having them now means you can do something with it now. If all you do is macro and not attack/harass each other until the whole map is mined out, you're gold players.
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This whole thread is a meaningless debate over semantics.
Use the word "cost" or don't. It doesn't fucking matter. The net result is very, VERY simple:
You can have ONE of these things: Supply, Money, or Info. You get one, you don't get the other two. Period.
Why does it matter whether you use the word "cost" or not? I think it's stupid and silly to argue that a scan doesn't "cost" a MULE. As a result of using a scan you don't have a MULE, and thus you will not get those minerals unless/until you completely mine out the map (never seen a game go that long, ever). That's the net result no matter what words you use to describe it.
FFS stop arguing over words. We all know what the choice is. That's all that matters...
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On December 01 2010 12:44 bowsting wrote: Scan DOES NOT and CAN NOT COST anything!
It is impossible for a choice between two options to cost something as you are in fact being supplied with a choice between two potentially lucrative options. You are not being charged or penalized for your choice. If you choose to never calldown the Mule, you get economically behind and decrease your chances of winning the game because you give up the opportunity for 270 minerals if you scan. This is the penalty of a scan. A reasonable way to choose the scan is, to scan only if the information or vision is valued higher than nice 270 extra minerals. Of course this is also a game of chances since you often don't know the value of the information. So you need to try to guess the value of a scan information before you scan.
If something has no cost, then you would have no disadvantage if you just waste it. If you get the chance to get $270 over 9 days ($30 each day, 9 times) or borrow glasses which let you see through woman's clothes on the street for 12 hours (then the glasses will get black so you cannot use them any longer) and you choose to get the glasses, then you give up on $270 for this.
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On December 01 2010 02:08 baconbits wrote: Calldown Supply is the only one that actually creates value from nothing. Scan and mule are both short-term benefits.
Mule lets you mine faster, increasing your income TEMPORARILY for 50 energy. If you call down a mule at the very end of the game, you may be cannot use the extra minerals even if you harvest them, so that Mule was worthless.
If you call down a Mule very early, you can use the extra income to build additional workers which has a huuuge pay off in longer games, even though the Mule effect is temporarily. The mule can get you real value.
On December 01 2010 02:08 baconbits wrote: Choosing a scan vs a mule cost INCOME RATE (minerals per second) not your actual minerals. You will still end up mining those 270 minerals, just slower. It doesn't magically reduce your mineral patch by 270. "Just slower" has its price. An analogy: Let's say you can choose to start with 100 instead of 50 minerals, but at 6:30 ingame time the game removes 50 minerals from your stash. Would it be wise to get the 50 minerals at the beginning? Yes. Having minerals now is always better than to get them later.
Since the base has so much ressources, the benefits of getting 270 minerals earlier is much greater than to be outmined earlier, too.
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Is this intellectual dishonesty on purpose or by mistake?
I am going to say that a scan costs 270 minerals indeed. edit: I now rephrase it to "A scan costs about 270 minerals". edit again: Since you cannot buy the scan directly for 270 minerals, some hesitate to say that the scan costs 270 minerals. (You cannot pay the OC 270 minerals, you need to use 50 energy.) Of course this is true, but my main point is that the scan is not free.
This is my contention, no, wait... this is what I mean, oh, ok..... so now I mean this..... anyway, the point is I'm right!!!!
edits 1 - 12: none of these points count.
This is the penalty of a scan.
Seriously? Penalty was the word you reached for there, huh? The next time a Terran scans me I'll shed a tear. The next time a Zerg sacs an overlord I'll type "At least you weren't penalised! ZERG SCOUTING OP!"
You are obviously DETERMINED to believe that you are disadvantaged by using a scan. This will be met with approval from anyone equally DETERMINED and disapproval from those not. And by the end of what I am guessing will be a 25 page thread not one single person will have changed their mind.
You cannot pay the OC 270 minerals, you need to use 50 energy.) Of course this is true, but my main point is that the scan is not free.
WOW! So the title of this thread could be: Scans cost 50 energy. Well, thank goodness we've sorted that out.
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On December 01 2010 18:57 SixtusTheFifth wrote: edits 1 - 12: none of these points count. ... because ...?
Are you ok if you replace "cost" with "opportunity cost"? (Wikipedia says Opportunity cost is the cost related to the next-best choice available to someone who has picked among several mutually exclusive choices)
On December 01 2010 18:57 SixtusTheFifth wrote: Seriously? Penalty was the word you reached for there, huh? The next time a Terran scans me I'll shed a tear. The next time a Zerg sacs an overlord I'll type "At least you weren't penalised! ZERG SCOUTING OP!" If you suicide an overlord for scouting, you are paying 100 minerals plus a larva. You also should build the replacement overlord before the scoutlord dies to avoid to get supply stuck, so you are paying the 100 and the larva minerals in advance, before you get possibly valuable scouting information.
On December 01 2010 18:57 SixtusTheFifth wrote:You are obviously DETERMINED to believe that you are disadvantaged by using a scan. Not at all. If the scan's value is guessed to be greater than about 270 minerals, it would effectively cost you minerals (or lets say, game-winning ressources) to call down the Mule compared to use the scan.
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A scan costs 270 minerals, over 90 seconds. NOT 270 minerals. Theres a huge difference.
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A mule is 270 minerals that you won't be able to get an earlier time in the game. If you and your opponent split the map and everything is mined out, you having used mules will not have earned you any minerals at all.
But if you had used supply dropdown instead of mule, that's 100 minerals you actually saved/earned (as long as the depot survives).
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DarkPlasmaBall, you're mistaken about a lot of things.
On December 01 2010 12:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I had two dollars in my wallet.
I could have, hypothetically, potentially, possibly bought a lottery ticket with those two dollars and won a million dollars.
Instead, I bought an ice cream.
Does that mean my decision to buy an ice cream cost me a million dollars?
No, your decision to buy an ice cream cost you $1 000 000 times by the probability of winning. So you're probably better off buying the ice cream.
Obviously, either decision (ice cream or lottery ticket) gives me a potential benefit, based off of the same amount of resources. Choosing one over the other does not mean that you're supposed to deduct the reward of the one not picked.
It's called opportunity cost. You might want to look it up.
There are an infinite number of things you can do with money. Why don't we average them all? Why don't we average the benefits of a supply drop, a MULE, and the million other alternatives to *not ever getting an Orbital Command in the first place*? BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL IRRELEVANT.
They're not irrelevant. If they were, then you should always scan as there is no downside without an opportunity cost. But you know intuitively that sometimes you shouldn't scan, and save the energy for something else, don't you?
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On December 01 2010 18:16 [F_]aths wrote: If something has no cost, then you would have no disadvantage if you just waste it. If you get the chance to get $270 over 9 days ($30 each day, 9 times) or borrow glasses which let you see through woman's clothes on the street for 12 hours (then the glasses will get black so you cannot use them any longer) and you choose to get the glasses, then you give up on $270 for this.
It's more like, you have a choice,
- $270 now - The Stock Market activity for the next hour and $270 tommarow.
Assuming you're going to be able to expand whenever you want is a very bad assumption. Only if your opponents are terrible.
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On December 01 2010 23:36 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 18:16 [F_]aths wrote: If something has no cost, then you would have no disadvantage if you just waste it. If you get the chance to get $270 over 9 days ($30 each day, 9 times) or borrow glasses which let you see through woman's clothes on the street for 12 hours (then the glasses will get black so you cannot use them any longer) and you choose to get the glasses, then you give up on $270 for this. It's more like, you have a choice, - $270 now - The Stock Market activity for the next hour and $270 tommarow. Assuming you're going to be able to expand whenever you want is a very bad assumption. Only if your opponents are terrible.
You have to compare the same time periods. With your analogy it's:
- $270 now and $270 tomorrow; or - the Stock Market activity for the next hour and $270 tomorrow.
Like [F_]aths has said, and like I said in my previous post, if there is no cost then there is no reason not to scan. Clearly the fact that you think twice before scanning means there is a cost. I still don't know how anybody is seriously disputing that there is a mineral opportunity cost to scanning.
The real question is how much the cost is. If we continue on from your example. The real questions are: - How much more is $270 now worth than $270 tomorrow? - How much is seeing the Stock Market activity for the next hour worth?
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To be perfectly honest, I lost a little respect for all of Terran-kind when I saw this post. If it isn't blatantly obvious that a scan costs 270 minerals over time then please stay in or go back to school.
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On December 02 2010 00:01 Obsolescence wrote: To be perfectly honest, I lost a little respect for all of Terran-kind when I saw this post. If it isn't blatantly obvious that a scan costs 270 minerals over time then please stay in or go back to school.
I don't think difficulty comprehending these ideas is limited to Terrans. This entire thread is littered with ignorant trolls who keep insisting scan is somehow "free."
It's a pretty sad example of a strategy forum thread, really.
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