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On November 30 2010 22:30 TrueIsAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 22:24 machination wrote: Opportunity cost of a scan is a MULE, a mule can mine 270 minerals which carries different opportunistic value at different times in a game. This seems like the best way to put it.
Yeah, hopefully more people will learn to not read too much into stuff like this and spend more time actually playing the game.
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its easier to say a scan costs 1 MULE
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On November 30 2010 22:38 mlbrandow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 22:13 Roban wrote:Definition of COST 1 a : the amount or equivalent paid or charged for something : price b : the outlay or expenditure (as of effort or sacrifice) made to achieve an object 2 : loss or penalty incurred especially in gaining something 3 plural : expenses incurred in litigation; especially : those given by the law or the court to the prevailing party against the losing party DictionaryI want to ask the OP to rephrase his statements. What you are doing, as I see it, is comparing a scan to a MULE and determine how many minerals a MULE is worth. If that is true, please write that instead of saying a scan costs a mule By the definition above you can see that cost is something you PAY. You do not PAY a MULE to get a scan. If a scan costs a MULE then you would first need to have a MULE to pay for the scan. I think it would help this thread if you made it clear that you are simply trying to determine the expected economic advantage of a MULE. Let's not argue about semantics any more okay? If you take your point of reference from 90 seconds later instead of the time when you scan or call down the mule, then yes, the COST is 240-270 minerals. I wish someone had read any of my 3 posts in this thread definitively answering this question. I'll post it one final time for kicks: A scan costs you 240-270 minerals until such time as you mine out the base. Then, it is considered to have been free. If the base is not mined out, you never recoup those minerals, and therefore you lost them, a cost. You arent losing the minerals, they are still there.
Jesus this is a pointless argument
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On November 30 2010 22:37 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 22:09 Slayer91 wrote: This bullshit that people sig about zerg buildings costing infinite minerals is pissing me off. First off there is a finite number of minerals on the map. Second, you don't have access to every expansion. Third, game time is limited. And most importantly, some buildings are required to let you expand, live, or power more drones.
A scan on a cloaked banshee technically reduces your eco by 270 but has "infinite" potential if it saves even 1 scv by that logic.
To the actual topic: The 270 less minerals doesn't come into play until about 5 minutes later, at which point the benefit of having an extra OC for 2 mules will far, outweigh that, so in the early game the 270 minerals you won't mine later can be ignored. It should really be treated as 270 mineral cost in the early game. If your build only needs to adapt to cloaked banshee in tvt, its probably better to make an engineering bay and 2 turrets for 325 a little bit later than to scan for 270 and possibly learn nothing, and having to spent the money anyway if he's going banshee, but if there are several allins you are looking for its worth the scan if its the difference between a win and a loss. So its not as simple as "Scan to see if he's going cloak or not to save money on engin bay", you want turrets and engin bay for upgrades, turrets can kill vikings and medivacs, so you gain minerals in the long run in all cases. go main zerg for 2 weeks and come back to read your comment. i guarantee you will be annoyed by the OP more than the 'zerg building costs infinite mineral'. btw, lets say mule can cost ~270minerals, how many trips of harvesting will make you back 270minerals? mule/scan is a no brainer benefit terran in every possible way, there is no trade off or penalty at all for mule/scan.
I do main zerg. I just used a t perspective because zerg isn't relevant to the discussion. Your post seems to be a poorly hidden complaint and terran imba or something along the lines. The cost of an orbital command is 150 minerals. Assuming you never scan, and you expand a lot, the mule mines as much as 3 scvs, constantly, throughout the game until you start to oversaturated patches past 2 per mineral. This means that you're paying 150 minerals for 3 scvs, and you can sacrifice the 3 scvs temporarily to scan. The advantages on oversaturated patches is a plus, and it amounts to bigger numbers of scvs, however, if I were terran, I'd trade my mules for inject larva ANY DAY. You get free larva/creep/heal from a queen, for energy, and it costs nothing. OMGWTFIMBA? Mules are probably the weakest overall macro mechanic, (good for low base counts though, badfor a "macro game" with lots of expoing) but terran's a good race so its OK.
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On November 30 2010 22:38 mlbrandow wrote: A scan costs you 240-270 minerals until such time as you mine out the base. Then, it is considered to have been free. If the base is not mined out, you never recoup those minerals, and therefore you lost them, a cost.
I'm sorry but this is false.
Minerals are worth more the earlier in the game it is. I can only use the minerals once I've mined them, they don't do me any good sitting in a patch. The whole goal is to mine as quickly as possible.
I never understood people who act like "oh you don't get more minerals you just get them faster."
THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. TO GET THEM FASTER.
You want to mine up those patches as quickly as possible. You want them off the map and in the upper right hand corner of the screen where you can spend them.
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A scan, a mule and a supply calldown all cost 25 energy. All three of which are circumstantially more useful than their counterparts, the only difference is that the mule is much more universally beneficial than the other two, and so is used by many people obsessed with quantifying everything as the benchmark option.
The only truth is that focusing solely on quantifying the benefits of each, or comparing the benefits of that energy to other races macro mechanics, serves to do nothing but narrow your perceived options because of which abilities you determine most "efficient".
Don't bother. Just use each ability when the situation calls for it. Got supply blocked and need to make a unit quickly (holding a push, or starting one) : calldown. Need information / sight? Scan. Need an economy boost, or are in neither of the two beforementioned situations? Mule.
S'all there is to it; being able to quantify what each is worth in some rough mineral value estimation is largely useless given that having that knowledge should never alter your decision in an actual game situation.
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The opportunity cost of a scan is 270 minerals.
But it isn't a lost opportunity. You will always get those minerals anyway.
Unlike supply calldown, which absolutely is free minerals.
In ideal situations, you would only use supply calldown. It would give you more minerals to work with.
But practically you want to do whatever will minimize your losses.
Will scanning his army save you 270 minerals of walking into a tank line and losing marines? Or will it reveal that you need to save up your energy and use them on scans because it's so much cheaper than throwing down 5 turrets for detection? Should you use those 270 minerals on marines?
It's a complicated issue. It's not that a scan costs you 270 minerals. It's that a mule can cost you much more.
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On November 30 2010 22:21 Roban wrote: Here's a practical example. I have an Orbital Command. It has 50 energy. I scan. Now I still have an Orbital Command. Now It has 0 energy. Did I just lose a MULE? No, I didn't even have any in the first place. Did I receive a penalty in any way? No, my Orbital Command still functions the same way. The only thing I PAID to scan was 50 energy on my Orbital Command. But you gave up 270 minerals, which you could get with the mule. You would only scan if you you value the scan information / detection above a nice 270 extra income. Often you don't know the scanning value unless you actutally scanned. You still would not spam scans at random locations since it costs you 270 minerals to do so.
This is at least true for the start of the game where you don't care about the total mineral count of your base. Having 270 minerals early often gets you an advantage >270 minerals later on since you can expand faster.
An OC costs 550 minerals plus building time, with just Mules you get 540 minerals. I would not be surprised if some players who play a macro game will start to get additional OCs just to call down mules. The faster you harvest a base, the less time you need to defend it. But we are already in the "what if" discussion; I think it is valid that a mule costs about 270 minerals even if you pay 50 OC energy.
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On November 30 2010 22:58 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 22:21 Roban wrote: Here's a practical example. I have an Orbital Command. It has 50 energy. I scan. Now I still have an Orbital Command. Now It has 0 energy. Did I just lose a MULE? No, I didn't even have any in the first place. Did I receive a penalty in any way? No, my Orbital Command still functions the same way. The only thing I PAID to scan was 50 energy on my Orbital Command. But you gave up 270 minerals, which you could get with the mule. You would only scan if you you value the scan information / detection above a nice 270 extra income. Often you don't know the scanning value unless you actutally scanned. You still would not spam scans at random locations since it costs you 270 minerals to do so. This is at least true for the start of the game where you don't care about the total mineral count of your base. Having 270 minerals early often gets you an advantage >270 minerals later on since you can expand faster. An OC costs 550 minerals plus building time, with just Mules you get 540 minerals. I would not be surprised if some players who play a macro game will start to get additional OCs just to call down mules. The faster you harvest a base, the less time you need to defend it. But we are already in the "what if" discussion; I think it is valid that a mule costs about 270 minerals even if you pay 50 OC energy. Wrong.
People have been describing the opportunity cost. The cost being : Get 270 minerals a little faster from the current minerals remaining at the base, or get a scan and save those 270 minerals till x scv trips/future mule trips later
When you call down a mule is 270 minerals extracted from your mineral total? Nope. Is it taken away from any of the mineral spots on the games? Nope. Do you lose slightly faster mining? Yes.
You arent losing ANY MONEY WHAT SO EVER FOR THE ENTIRE GAME, just because you scan instead of a mule.
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On November 30 2010 22:45 Slayer91 wrote: if I were terran, I'd trade my mules for inject larva ANY DAY. You get free larva/creep/heal from a queen, for energy, and it costs nothing. Queen spells do not cost nothing. Especially early in the game you have to decide if you begin with creep turmor planting or if you need 4 more larvae. You cannot do both at the same time, you are giving up an option to get another one. That is the cost of your decision, even if you pay with energy.
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On November 30 2010 22:56 GoldenH wrote: The opportunity cost of a scan is 270 minerals.
But it isn't a lost opportunity. You will always get those minerals anyway.
They're lost to you if you lose the game.
The whole map has what - 100 000 minerals on it? Saying that a MULE doesn't give you 270 minerals because you'll get them later anyway is like saying battlecruisers are cheap because you have 100k minerals. It's that silly.
I mean it's like arguing - don't waste minerals on SCV's - you'll mine the same amount no matter how many you have.
The argument makes no sense.
On November 30 2010 23:05 arb wrote: You arent losing ANY MONEY WHAT SO EVER FOR THE ENTIRE GAME, just because you scan instead of a mule.
I save for scans. Opponent MULE's. Opponent attacks early and with 5 more marines than I have and I lose everything... how do I go on to mine those minerals?
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On November 30 2010 23:05 arb wrote: Wrong.
People have been describing the opportunity cost. The cost being : Get 270 minerals a little faster from the current minerals remaining at the base, or get a scan and save those 270 minerals till x scv trips/future mule trips later
When you call down a mule is 270 minerals extracted from your mineral total? Nope. Is it taken away from any of the mineral spots on the games? Nope. Do you lose slightly faster mining? Yes.
You arent losing ANY MONEY WHAT SO EVER FOR THE ENTIRE GAME, just because you scan instead of a mule.
After 90 seconds, that answer is yes. And it only becomes no once you've mined out that entire base.
It is an actual cost after 90 seconds. You lost those minerals because you never MULED, and after 90 seconds, that scan COST you 240-270 minerals.... UNTIL the base is mined out.
On November 30 2010 22:43 arb wrote: You arent losing the minerals, they are still there.
Jesus this is a pointless argument
You didn't actual counter what I said... You just reworded what I said so the meaning changed, then called the argument stupid.
If they are still there when the game ends (I.e. the location you muled hasn't expired) then you indeed have lost those minerals, and those scans that weren't mules cost you 240-270 minerals each in total income for the game.
On November 30 2010 22:46 ltortoise wrote: I'm sorry but this is false.
Minerals are worth more the earlier in the game it is. I can only use the minerals once I've mined them, they don't do me any good sitting in a patch. The whole goal is to mine as quickly as possible.
I never understood people who act like "oh you don't get more minerals you just get them faster."
THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. TO GET THEM FASTER.
You want to mine up those patches as quickly as possible. You want them off the map and in the upper right hand corner of the screen where you can spend them.
I agree with everything you wrote except for the "I'm sorry but this is false" part.
Nothing you posted actually is in conflict with anything I posted. I agree the point is to get them faster. The argument at hand is whether a scan costs you 240-270 minerals or it doesn't.
My argument says that you do get an extra 240-270 minerals until you mine out that base... and MOST Of the time, you don't mine out a base, so it IS extra income in MOST games.
You essentially called my argument false, then wrote a supporting opinion.
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A storm used on Marines cost the Protoss about 500 Minerals because it could have killed 10 Scvs when placed in a mineral line. I guess I will too open a thread for this.
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There's an idea from economics that says that money now is worth more than money later. There is some discount factor δ, with 0 < δ < 1, such that if you get, say, 270 minerals now it's worth 270 minerals but if you will get them 1 time step later, it's only worth 270δ now.
The exact value of δ is not known and probably changes depending on game situations. A MULE mines 270 minerals over a somewhat short period of time, but you won't have those 270 minerals when you mine out all your bases. When you mine out, however, is so far ahead in the future that 270δ^t is such a small number that it's almost right to say a scan "costs" 270 minerals. Although I'd put the value slightly less, because a MULE doesn't gather instantaneously and there is actually a chance you'll mine out at some point.
People who argue that the MULE is just a loan don't know what they're talking about. It's an interest-free loan that you don't have to pay back for a very, very long time (as long as you keep taking expansions anyway...) which is almost as good as the money straight up.
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Why do you folks still argue? It has no mineral cost, it just reduces your possible income. With mule your income the next 30 seconds is 9 minerals per second higher (don't know the exact numbers, never cared) and with a scan it's not. There are no costs (except for energy) involved.
Yes, if you scan and do nothing else then compared to using a mule and not doing anything else you end up with 270 minerals less 30 seconds later, but if you do neither then you don't have less minerals and you don't have scouting information either.
Just use scans if you want to know what he does and mules if you already know.
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The value of a mule is less than 270 mienrals as you dont get the minerals instantly (and the fact that you mine out your minerals a bit faster counts a bit as well). End of discussion plz.
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On November 30 2010 23:12 thenexusp wrote: There's an idea from economics that says that money now is worth more than money later. There is some discount factor δ, with 0 < δ < 1, such that if you get, say, 270 minerals now it's worth 270 minerals but if you will get them 1 time step later, it's only worth 270δ now.
The exact value of δ is not known and probably changes depending on game situations. A MULE mines 270 minerals over a somewhat short period of time, but you won't have those 270 minerals when you mine out all your bases. When you mine out, however, is so far ahead in the future that 270δ^t is such a small number that it's almost right to say a scan "costs" 270 minerals. Although I'd put the value slightly less, because a MULE doesn't gather instantaneously and there is actually a chance you'll mine out at some point.
People who argue that the MULE is just a loan don't know what they're talking about. It's an interest-free loan that you don't have to pay back for a very, very long time (as long as you keep taking expansions anyway...) which is almost as good as the money straight up.
This is a great way to look at it, and thanks for sharing this.
On November 30 2010 23:18 Hider wrote: The value of a mule is less than 270 mienrals as you dont get the minerals instantly (and the fact that you mine out your minerals a bit faster counts a bit as well). End of discussion plz.
This thread is debating whether a Scan is equal to a mule is equal to 240-270 minerals... not whether the Value of a Mule is equal 270 minerals.
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On November 30 2010 23:08 mlbrandow wrote: You essentially called my argument false, then wrote a supporting opinion.
I called it false because you are arguing that the cost of scanning RETROACTIVELY drops to zero upon mining out.
That isn't true.
Minerals NOW is better than minerals LATER. This is basic economics and basic Starcraft macro. If it wasn't the case, nobody would bother to make workers since you could just get all your minerals "eventually."
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nothing is free in starcraft
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Econ 101 tells us a scan is worth more than a mule when it's used and a mule is worth more than a scan when it is used. Oh wait, did I just get trolled?
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