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On November 24 2010 11:39 dcberkeley wrote:
God so many useless criticisms. There is only one dealbreaking problem. It's the fucking camera. I can tune them out if they suck at commentary. I watch Korean casts and I don't have any idea what they're saying but that's alright. The camera pans over beautifully on upgrades when they upgrade, on harass when it's going on and on battles when one is happening. I understand the game based on what I'm seeing and the Korean obs is amazing for that, I don't even need commentary. GSL? I'm pained every single time I watch a cast because the obsing is so goddamn awful that I wish I could watch the Korean VODs.
You can see the upgrades in the top left. And tasteless does show the harass and battles... don't know what you're talking about.
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First of all, Artosis and Tasteless are both decent casters and I generally enjoy listening to them. I also really appreciate how Artosis has been contributing quite a bit to the English speaking community with his interviews and GSL footages.
With that said, their camera control could definitely use some work. I didn't really notice this until I watched a few Korean casts. Perhaps they could just follow the Korean obs and concentrate on casting?
Also, Artosis is often a little quick to dismiss certain players and their strategies during GSL. I say this because I've often heard the Korean casters offering pretty reasonable and insightful explanations behind those same strategies. Artosis also likes to say things like "I've played against that style countless times and rarely lost to it", which could sometimes get a bit irritating, but I suppose that's just a minor issue.
Tasteless seems fine apart from his grainy voice (which is just my personal preference, so it's not really a valid complaint), and while he did sometimes sound rather clueless, he seems to have improved for GSL3.
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Even though this is a pretty tired argument, I have to stick up for my nerds. I was worried after GSL1, but I had no clue how strongly motivated the Tastosis is. With GSL2 they made huge strides in terms of improvement and now after watching the past couple days of GSL3 I am impressed again. Tasteless must've played a ton of sc2 during the break (like others have said), his game knowledge is so much better and because of this he's more comfortable, leading to better jokes, banter, etc.
Sure artosis is opinionated, confident, and some might say arrogant, but thats what makes him such a great commentator! As long as Artosis stays proficient in the metagame, the Casting Archon will remain the #1 casting team in the sc2 community! Keep up the great work guys
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this is mostly a tangential comment to the rest of what's going on here as i'm all for tastosis BUT
is it me or is tasteless funnier when he's alone up there? consider the wcg stuff, the old gom stuff, i don't know. maybe just having to fill all the air time created it
anyway, keep rockin' out, dudes
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On November 24 2010 10:49 tyrless wrote:
Tasteless:
- Too agreeable with Artosis at times, or follows Artosis' lead, which leads to Artosis getting away with imba comments or false game predictions. Their style would benefit if he pushed back on Artosis a little once in a while. A lot of the time Tasteless is just reiterating a comment made by Artosis, which most of the time is fine because Artosis makes a lot of good comments but Tasteless could strive for originality a little more.
Too agreeable at times? More like all the time, hes a parrot pretty much (but i still enjoy them as a team).
As Artosis not qualifying not enough for GSL. He doesn't need to, he knows all the strats and top players play by playing Korean Ladder right?
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I think Tastosis are fine, the only thing I don't like is when Artosis shows bias, especially when a foreigner is getting stomped on and he speaks in a very solemn voice. It just busts my balls even more and puts me in a bad mood.
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People also aren't criticizing for the sake of criticizing or wanting to be a arm chair quarterback, they want Tastosis to improve and get even better. If your best do you just sit back and relax? No you get better and improve even more, and work harder.
I still think Tasteless solo casting Starcraft 1 matches for Gomtv was the best casting ever in starcraft. They should watch those games again and learn from them. I think the major difference was that Tasteless didn't need to focus on the camera and was free to think/analyze more.
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I dig the casting, just not the camera.
I don't understand the choice to show the unit tab instead of the production tab. Without an independent cameraman inside the game, things will continue to be missed. 9 times out of 10 I'm squinting, looking at the minimap, trying to tell if the Terran is picking up his 13 gas.
The production tab eases this pain.
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The strong opinions and frankness of Artosis are strengths and make him more entertaining in my opinion. Tasteless has been doing a progressively better job of obsing but like some others have stated it seems like he doesn't play much these days and usually just ends up restating what artosis says and never expanding on it.
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don't know about you guys, but i think tasteless is hiliarious. i fall asleep listening to day9+djwheat. i think you guys are giving wheat too much praise. from what i've seen in his MLG casts, he doesn't do anything special.
for example,
*marauder kills stalker*
"looks like that stalkers down, day9 why do you think our terran decided to go marauders?"
-day9 gives an excellent explanation-
"ok, looks like blah blah is doing blah blah, day9, why do you think he's doing that?"
-another explanation-
"alright, looks like blargh blah blah blah etc, why day9?"
-explanation-
it's not a bad thing. they did cover what needed to be covered and didn't miss anything important, but shit, the commentating was dry as hell. djwheat regurgitates what i can clearly see on my screen, asks a question directed to day9, he answers, repeats. its like they're following a script.
tasteless+artosis could work on a few things, but i think they're the best casting duo atm. when people say stuff like "tasteless could learn a few things from djwheat or other casters", i just laugh. please be nothing like djwheat or any other caster out there, those awkward moments, bad jokes and occasional brain farts is what makes tasteless the most unique and hilarious caster out there.
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honestly dont agree with the sentiment of this thread at all. both tasteless and artosis are way better, wittier commentators than your huskys your jason lees and your hds, and are better at commentating starcraft than some pro sport commentators are for their respective sports. ofc they are not perfect and they show bias especially towards the foreign players, but its actually good that they favor foreigners in the long run and i wouldnt be suprised if they had actually been told to act as such.
If you guys can think of available better commentators then list em. the only thing id prefer is the unavailable day9 + an intelligent pro player of one of the races being played (would even be hard to find available, willing ones). and even then tastosis are better for more casual viewers..
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i think they do amazing and im entertained watching it. However, his observing was horrid again last couple days :/. He was doing much better and now he's missing everythign again.
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On November 24 2010 10:49 tyrless wrote:..this is one area where I think he could take some cues from Jason Lee or DJWheat, guys who seem adept at taking every lull or pause as an opportunity to generate new discussion.
Please fucking no. Especially at MLG, even though I really liked the casting, their inability of taking a pause was truly exhausting for the viewer. I mean honestly, there's nothing wrong with taking a fucking breather once in a while, but to bury the viewer in continuous discussion pre- in- and post-game is something else entirely. Most of the time it's about mundane bullshit you already know about anyway.
Have the casters stick to what's important and when there happens to be a lull, it doesn't always have to be filled with useless trifle.
Tastosis is the perfect balance of that. Sometimes they had stuff to say in the first five minutes of a (slow) game, and sometimes they acknowledge that they don't and make it clear that they're waiting for the action to start. That's the middle road man. It's perfect.
Clause: Day9. He's good at continuous non-stop casting, but that's just his style. It's not forced.
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anyone who cites djwheat as a good sc2 caster isn't allowed an opinion
User was temp banned for this post.
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The only criticisms I have of them is the use (or lack thereof recently) of the Production tab. I think they should just leave it up all the time, and if they want to check the supplies, worker counts, etc, switch to the relevant tab, make their point, and snap right back to the Production tab. Like shift-clicking workers back to mining after building something, they should auto-tab back to Production after making whatever point they wanted to make using another tab.
Also related to the Production tab, they should probably look at it themselves more often as well. It appears that they rely on the screen to see what's going on, although the Production tab was open the whole time for them to just look at it and see whatever it is that's building. A lot of times it takes a pass over someone's base for them to point out something significant when it's been in the Production tab for 40 seconds already.
Those comparing Day9 and Wheat to Tastosis are kind of comparing apples and oranges. I think Day9 and Wheat's respective knowledges about the game (where Day9 is clearly far superior to Wheat in that aspect) lends itself to the style of casting they do, where Wheat just sets up Day9 for some good analysis and handles the play-by-play. However, Tasteless and Artosis are closer in knowledge levels, so what they end up doing is tag-teaming the analysis because they both feel qualified to provide it.
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Well, I love the archon and I also like DJWt/Day9 and JP/Day9 - they all of them as combinations bring different qualities to the enterprise but I like the final product in all cases.
It's true there are things Tastosis can work on, but it's also true GSL3 is lightyears ahead of GSL1 on almost every front. I think they are doing a great job.
On the very specific issue of "bias" or "QQ" or "imba"-style commentary - while I take the point, they are commentators, not journalists. We know Artosis is a zerg player and thinks of the game from a (more or less korean) zerg point of view, the audience is well aware of this and capable of factoring it in to what he says. I don't think artificially striving for an "objective" commentary style is per force superior to the casual "guys on a couch" style they adopt currently.
On the issue of "Tasteless doesn't know enough about the game" - I wonder if maybe they have to develop a method of disagreeing on camera which is non-awkward. I know a lot of people become distressed when they explain a very simple detail or strategy which is known to any but the most casual reader of TL; but for myself, I think they are right to pitch the commentary at a fairly casual-player level. If the aim is to extend the reach and appeal of SC2, you have to have commentary that suits a fairly innocent audience, and an audience which probably doesn't actually play that much. In the same vein then, I think when Tasteless does actually make an out-and-out error, Artosis should be able to point out the mistake for the benefit of the audience, without it either making Tasteless feel awkward or encouraging a firestorm of criticism on TL. By the same token, as some have mentioned above, I would like Tasteless to feel like he could ask genuine questions of Artosis when some point wasn't clear to him, or challenge him on some point he - mistakenly or otherwise - is unclear on, again without it being awkward or prompting "l2play"-style criticism.
Basically, as many have observed, they have decided to break it down into Artosis as the technical expert and Tasteless as the Common Man. I think that's a very sensible approach which suits their natural personalities. As stand-in for The Average Viewer (ie. not us, fond Liquidians), Tasteless ought to be able to ask stuff and challenge stuff. That would make for a better cast I think.
NB: When I say "better cast", I'm presuming of course that the target audience is the general public, aiming to promote sc2 as an esport.
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On November 24 2010 12:49 sigol wrote:
anyone who cites djwheat as a good sc2 caster isn't allowed an opinion
just a little harsh?
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I completely agree about Tasteless not handling interruptions or technical difficulties or delays very well and Artosis being a bit too biased towards Zerg. Otherwise they're pretty good.
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Tips for controller the observing computer:
-Holding down alt shows HP bars
-Pressing 1 or 2 shows that player's perspective of the game (shows the parts of the map they can see, and if player camera (shortcut "C") is on it shows the screen as they see it). Pressing E will show everybody's (both player's) view. **This way you don't have to select someone's unit to switch to their vision
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I agree on the awkwardness of Tasteless. He seems really stressed out whenever there's the slightest pause, followed by alot of "uh" and "... here". He could use those moments for asking questions to Artosis, which in turn will build up Artosis. Stuff like "what do you think the best path would be from here for our zerg?" instead of the "uhhhm I'm not sure what our zerg player is planning over here".
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EPT
