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On August 25 2010 13:59 Angra wrote:
The ZvT discussions lately are a pretty good example of what I mean, I think. The majority of people who are discussing it don't really seem like they are discussing it from a neutral stance. They are discussing it based on what race they play, and that alone. Of course there's always been the whole proud of your race thing in BW, but a ton of people are taking it way too far currently with SC2. People are so zealous about their race that they completely neglect the fact that they should be trying to actually help turn SC2 into a good, fun game.
I think this largely has to do with lack of experience
Zerg players don't know what difficulties there are in playing terran, and visa versa
People talk from their one sided perspective
I think the OP makes a good point, but phrased it in a "politically incorrect" manner
If I got the idea right, you are saying points do not equate to skill at the moment because there are simply too many unforseen playstyles at even the highest echelon. Players who are exploring these possibilities will eventually grow to surpass one trick ponies, but for now, its anyone's game.
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On August 25 2010 16:19 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 10:32 Kinmaul wrote:
I'm an average player at best and I agree with the OP 110%. Elitist Jerks have a World of Warcraft forum that usually has solid posts, but the only way they maintain that quality is that they are moderation nazi's to the extreme. There is very little moderation here and as a result your average post is going to be full of armchair theorycrafting with no basis that was probably made up on the spot.
People don't seem to understand that the average SC2 player is average... average. I think a few rules from EJ would help this board out immensily.
*The ability for people to report bad/unqualified posts. You regulate this by giving out warnings/bans to people that report posts for no reason.
*You must have 10-15 replies in various threads before you can made your own topic.
*Orginal topics are closely watched. People who make poor topics are quickly banned from posting/replying.
The report post feature makes moderation much more efficient. Rather than randomly browse the forums for trash you can look at the the list of reported posts and take immediate action. Is the post worthy of a warning/ban? Done. Did the person needlessly report the post? Warn/ban them.
Clean up the boards imo. This post is exaggeration to the extreme....these forums are moderated extremely well considering its a community site and they have thousands of users per day posting stuff. It's easy to moderate the EJ forums when you have 100x less people than TL reading it and posting at a time. I never see people post blatant flames here without getting at least a warn.
You cant say that they are less people on EJ because of the nazi mod there are a lot of lurker. Maybe it s the solution for TL ?
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I didn't read through the thread but the OP is totally true. I'm one of those mediocre diamond players but I I've never gotten out of D on iCCup
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Thats completly right I was SC:BW D/D- on IcCup just got promoted to diamond 550 pts 54% win rate
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On August 25 2010 16:31 AcOrP wrote:
Thats completly right I was SC:BW D/D- on IcCup just got promoted to diamond 550 pts 54% win rate
high five* i'm a BW D player who never got past 1800 and i'm sitting at 511 diamond
iuno, the calibre of diamond league was ridiculously lower than i expected. I remember getting promoted in from plantum, crapping my pants for the first few matches, and then realizing that there are still diamond players who don't scout, turtle, or just all-in cheese
by no means am i saying i'm great at sc2. i'm just saying the level of diamond starcraft is not as glorified as it seems to be. But then again, everyone on iccup did begin emulating the progamers in playstyle, making brood war extremely bland and mechanical. in a way, i'm actually kinda appreciative that in sc2, i'm able to not always completely lose the game off a single mistake.
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i sorta agree...particularly low diamond doesn't meanmuch nowadays.
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I wouldnt give top diamond that much credit. I think D at best for most top diamond players.
With that being said, all i see on the boards in the last few weeks is people ranting or crying about being frustrated with a loss. With garbage threads like 'convince me not to switch races' this shit is really starting to get old.
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It's definitely the "talk more, act less" syndrome adopted especially from politicians across the world that has us screaming our lungs out before experiencing an actual effect of change.
If we expect the community to grow and develop a real sports environment we need to revert back to acting > talking. And I do not mean we need to stop talking but we definitely need to balance out the acting/talking ratio.
Applying this logic to the topic at hand. If a strategy is being discussed and you disagree with it? Execute it and link the replay to your reply so people can see why you disagree and maybe elaborate.
Blaming it on the moderators is a cheap shot. The entire community is responsible for having the courtesy to respect a fellow gaming enthusiast.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
wow, glad someone said it. i've had this opinion of diamond players for a long time now, but thought i'd just get flamed to death if i said anything. think about it this way: if you were mediocre at brood war and easily get into the top ranks of blizzard's SC2 divisions, is it more likely that you suddenly have a great aptitude for RTS or that everyone else is simply not good right now?
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This is true. I'm a 500 diamond player. And I always say that to emphasize how bad I actually am. Not that what I say is true and have value! Thats why all my threads are D threads cause I do not claim to know if what I say is actually good.
I thought that it was common knowledge that a 400-600 ranked player these days is pretty shit at the game. At the moment I would only listen to 900+ players and as you say thats still not a guarantee of that a tactic is great. It can be that this person simply has good mechanics and macro/micro.
At 500 diamond I have a few openers. Never played the other races. My scouting is bad, I still dont know how to deal with lots of all ins. I have bad macro and very lacking micro and it looses me many many many games. I can loose after having had advantage half the game cause my macro lacks. I have a basic understanding of the game thats all. I consider everyone below diamond to be kinda clueless about the game for these reasons.
And its even more hilarious when ppl in plat/gold think they know something 800-900+ players don't then when I think I know something they dont :D
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I think its too early to properly rank players using a point range. People are always gaining points, and as the skill level increases, so will the skill discrepancy between players. Cheese is so strong in this game, and players can get to high diamond no problem if they just perfect several cheese builds. As the strategies (and therefore, responses) develop, standard play will slowly be stronger and that is when true player skill levels will be the most accurate. Also, if people spam games, its easy to get points, so I think winrate is actually currently a more accurate representation of skill rather than points.
If anybody cares, im ~600 diamond (played about 60 games, ~60% winrate), D+ BW iccup. I just realized thats a lot of 6's haha
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
10000% agree - main reason why I keep quiet lately is cause of the fact that sooo sooo many retards without any fucking clue actually keep opening their mouth way too far.
Seriously?
Banlings are by far not enough.
Unleash teh kraken!11
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One underlying problem we are missing here in assigning value to the point system on the ladder is simply the fact that Ladder games are not a Zero Sum game when distributing points. This means a couple of things:
1) Quantifying a level of skill by the number of points someone gathered is completely fallacious as while your assessment might be true today, next week it will be false. Say that we assume that only 1000+ rating players know what they are talking about... well I can tell you that in two weeks the average rating of TL members will be around that number. Its just not a viable indicator.
2) Points can be gained by mindlessly massing games. The matchmaking system will make it that I have a 50% winrate and so that in average I constantly gain points by laddering. It's a social trick, made by Blizzard to make players thing they are improving. A highly rated player is only someone who has played a lot of games: sure, he has some knowledge, but nothing guarantees he has a deeper understanding of the game.
If we want to have a system where a player's opinion is backed up by his achievements, I propose that only the players that have won/ranked high in acknowledged tournaments get this respected status.
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Completely agree. And anyone who disagrees with the rankings at this point is deluding themselves. You can get to diamond with D- skills, just face it.
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I hope that there will be a proleague soon!
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I was C- Protoss in iccup and i am arround 700 points right now. I think i can go up to 1000 if i practice more but i know that if i face a true pro i would get owned so hard so yeah i think the op is right about that. But again even though i respect to the pros and lower ranked players than me it is different with theorycrafting than actually playing the game. Any 400 points diamond player theorycrafts about so many things and they may not be able to do what they say to do too. It doesn't mean they don't know anything about the game therefore they shouldn't post instead they should lurk the forum to get better. You can't stop them from posting but maybe you can bring something like ranking to the forums too and only admins will give those rankings to the users so we'll have our well known players and pros with "who to read" feature in tl.net dunno thats just my idea though.
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You give diamond players too much credit
God, I played BW the other day against my long time practice partner and shit was ridiculous. We were both laughing watching the replay because we went from like C- to D- from 3 months of sc2.
too many new users! We need more elitism!
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I would like to point out a site like ElitistJerks.com has probably the strictest posting rules I've ever heard of in a forum, yet probably receives more visits from WoW players than any other site. I think it would be nice if some of the trash posts that come up all the time here were dealt with a little more strictly to discourage such future behavior. When I first started reading on TL, I was amazed at how much misinformation was posted here; I was additionally surprised when no moderator action takes place to limit it. I hope that in the future, more meaningful discussions can happen here.
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so im just going to bump this to the top
i want to see more quality posts on TL and much less theorycrafting, and if everyone sees this, it might eventually get there
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United States10774 Posts
On August 25 2010 12:17 xiaofan wrote:
i am 1k diamond, C/C+ iccup and I proxy gates every game. even my mother is ashamed of me
hahaha ur awesome
i think i have lost to ur proxy gates before (on SC2, i dont lose to that shit on BW  )
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EPT
