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The last game I played last night was lost just like the previous three were: the Protoss went for the early reaver, I panicked, lost most of my marines and my first tank, felt frustrated and fell apart mentally. He moved in with goons and I gg'd. I was pissed after the first time it happened, and I knew if I kept pushing I'd be playing angry and uncontrolled. But I just wanted that one token win so badly. But as my games went on and I tried harder and harder to fend off the drop, the rest of my play suffered, and by the end I felt like a bumbling idiot spamming keys. I closed the game, got some food and waited for Day[9]'s cast.
This morning I had some time, so I decided to do a search on TL for 'TvP reaver drop' and came across this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100336
I read through as much as I could, and noticed a trend that I've seen a lot lately on TL as I've tried to learn the game: players giving advice that's highly technical, delivered in a stream-of-consciousness fashion and from the perspective of someone who's already learned that skill. I'm talking about responses like:
"...Keeping your scv alive as long as possible delays his tech by that long, as the 100 gas is a huge delay and also prevents him from placing citadel/robo while you can still scout. Other signs of reaver/dts are really late natural expansions, try and continually scout that."
or
"do it safe.. make ebay earlier. game would be much simpler and no need to post here."
Now I fully appreciate anyone who's willing to spend their time helping other players improve, but the problem with the forum format is that you've got a series of different opinions (often conflicting) displayed without much context from someone who doesn't know you or your game. Not to mention the fact that as a new player, when I get reaver dropped (for example), my mind isn't churning over a cold-hard calculation of my timing mistakes, or thinking five steps down the road in my game plan. I'm panicking.
It's almost as if I want the first thing I read in a thread about 'TvP reaver dropping' to be don't panic.
Why I'm writing this blog:
Two weeks ago I decided that I was done simply watching the competitive Starcraft scene from the sidelines, and that it was time to learn the game for myself. Using TL as a learning base, I began to pick up tidbits of info here and there, practicing each one a bit then working it into my game. But while sites like TL excel at carefully documenting the technical side of the Starcraft, what I really wanted was a resource dedicated to what I call the 'softer' sides of the game: how it is learned, and what the learning is experience is like from a personal standpoint.
I believe that to be useful to other beginners, this kind of guide needs to be written by one. That way the learning process (and associated emotions, frustrations, successes) can be shared in a way that's honest and that resonates with players going through the same experiences.
So instead of "learn how to 1a2a3a", maybe it should be, "I've been learning how to control large groups of units this week. I'm finding it really difficult to ensure that I get all key presses in when I do an attack, so I'm practicing the 1a2a3a in slow mode first to get the motion right..."
And instead of "your push was late, work on mid-game push timing, should be about 90 supply when toss takes third", maybe it should be, "I was having difficulty getting my timing right for my push, so I developed these mental triggers to get it right. Here's how I did it."
Some of you may not see a difference between the two approaches, and so perhaps this blog isn't for you. But as someone who believes how we learn is a limiting factor in understanding what we learn, I do. And as a beginner, yeah, I do want my hand held a bit, and I want things to be laid out for me, and I want to know someone else is struggling with reaver drops just like I am.
What else I bring:
I'm always looking for the most efficient route to learning something, and that often means breaking that thing down and determining what its first principles are. With Starcraft I feel that the conventional wisdom on training (play play play) is hugely inefficient. Why? Well, I have a few ideas, but I need time to work them out. Suffice it to say that there is no other sport out there where training consists primarily of playing the game alone - not one. There has to be a better way.
I'm also willing to import training ideas to see how well they'll work for Starcraft, but more importantly why they work. I've read a few threads now on 'mouse precision games', and I thought, "Wow! what an idea! let's try it out."
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For me, Starcraft represents a challenge, the kind of which I've never attempted before. My background is athletics, so I'm familiar with exploring the intricacies of physical training and finding the best routines for my body, something I've yet to really do with the mental side. And hey, by the time I decide to stop doing this I might still be hovering around D on ICCUP, but hopefully at the very least I can provide a resource for new players looking for someone else who will help them through their 'early-game'.
 
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Wrong forum IMO. This is good enough to be in the strategy forum.
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Study strategies, try them and play them yourself, and then watch your replays to see where you can improve.
That's how you get better at SC. Lots of games, combined with focus and a conscious effort each game to improve. There isn't some shortcut where you can get super good super fast by not playing StarCraft, and really, there doesn't need to be. StarCraft is fun.
I'll admit the Strategy section of TL often has a lot of conflicting advice and people who don't really know what they're talking about. The reason not much is done about it is because the majority of the time (at D / C levels) the reason you lost is just because your control is worse, not because your opponent was a better strategist. Especially if your issue is something like not having enough units when you push out 
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Learning starcraft will take years. And the only way to understand Starcraft is through experience. The only way to get experience is to mass game. Starcraft is not like a physical sport. There are no drills or anything like that to practice (well except micro maps i guess) . Playing game after game is the best route, becuase then you are slowly developing every facet of your game play.
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Suffice it to say that there is no other sport out there where training consists primarily of playing the game alone - not one.
In ball sports one possession is usually similar to all the others.
So its relatively easy to come up with meaningful conditioning exercises.
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Nice post, I hope you keep updating. I think a lot of people might benefit from this sort of blog, and you organize your thoughts well.
I'd like to give you some advice on how to improve when you're starting out. Many times, the reasons new players lose games have little or nothing to do with their opponent. For instance, if you forget to mine gas immediately in a TvP, and then you fail to notice when you've reached 100, your factory will be lethally slow. These sorts of things are incredibly important to how a match-up plays out.
Yet it's so easy to be overwhelmed by the little tasks of macro that such errors are incredibly common in new players. Combine that with the pressure of scouting and adapting to an opponent, and you have a situation which is too stressful and difficult for a new player to efficiently develop from. This is why I advocate practicing builds without an opponent. It will let you focus on getting the first few minutes of your game timed correctly. This will not only give you an opportunity to improve your mechanics in a low stress environment, it will give you some benchmark timings to keep in mind when you return to facing real opponents. Day[9] describes this as "relative timing", understanding that your opponent's core will be building when you are at a certain place in your build. This kind of sense is crucial to playing effectively and it won't be possible if your build is inconsistent.
To play solo on a map, play on iccup or in udp mode with a computer opponent. While the timer is counting down, just remove the computer. Then immediately when the game begins, click "continue playing".
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You said you watch Day[9]. This is a good start 
But seriously, just keep playing lots. And as Day[9] says, you need to go into each game having declared some distinct objectives and trying your best to achieve them, like "This game if I get my 3rd CC I will definitely make a total 8 factories".
I do agree with you though, about how much of the advice given here is given in a somewhat inaccessible fashion due to the point of view it is coming from... Oh well, happy training sir.
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Calgary25954 Posts
I understand your frustration, but you need to understand ours. If you come to TL with a question or problem, the assumption is that you've put in a reasonable amount of effort trying to solve it yourself. If you can't figure out a strategy, the assumption is it's a situation you're not experienced in.
If you are having problems 1a2a3a'ing, what do you want us to tell you? I know that was just an example, but that's the one I'm going to stay on. Sure, we can give you techniques and whatnot, but for the most part you just need to put in your time and practise pressing 1a2a3a. Almost nothing you read is going to help you do this more effectively.
Edit: I understand your comment is deeper than the shallow reply you got from me. I'll take a look back when I have more time.
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Most people assume you read the guidlines, and tried to find your info on your own. The replys are for people who did this, and still cant find the information they want, so if you cant understand our replys, chances are you just wanted it served on a silver platter.
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Just a little 2 cents post, I realize that post is too good for a 2cents post, but I'm limited on time atm and wanted to throw this in.
The key to learning starcraft at the beginning IS to play a shit ton of games, but you have to do it the right way. Stick to 1 style of playing for every matchup so you can get very familiar with it and learn how it plays out against other styles of playing (i'm reticent to say build order because it goes much deeper than that). For example, in TvP every game do 1fac siege expo -> "flash strat"... on every map. Learn the timing weaknesses, and when you get hit by something that you weren't prepared for (i.e fast reaver), watch the replay, see what the timing should have been, and learn how to react to what you scout. These are mainly strategical decisions, and really come into play at higher levels of starcraft.
At the d - c levels, you REALLY need to focus on macro and getting your hands and mind used to doing everything they need to do. i.e making scvs every 18 seconds, keeping your factories pumping, keeping supply depots being made, and really the only way to get that embedded into muscle memory (which is very necessary) is to play a lot of starcraft, the same exact way every game. This is not to say you shouldn't adapt to what your opponent is doing, merely you need to have the "standard" game down to a science that you could do in your sleep. Adapting to non-standard styles of play is very important, but first you should learn why they are non-standard, how to spot them coming, and what loses to it.
As far as tl.net goes, there are a lot of people that post sub-standard replies, and you need to just ignore it or even tuck their advice into the back of your head, it might prove useful one day. Learn what's good advice and bad advice, and there are people who consistently give good advice that you should always listen to (day[9] for one, ver being another off the top of my head). Also learn who the high-ranking players are as their advice is more apt to be good.
Anywho, back to drinking. Great post btw.
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One big thing for beginners is this:
Don't think deeply when playing, just act and react as quickly as you can. Thinking deeply about "what should I do in this situation?" during the middle of the game will just bog down your brain which will bog down your hands. If you're unsure of what to do in a given situation, just do the first thing that occurs to you and go with it 100%. Often this will actually be the best possible response (i.e. you will instinctively know what to do).
After games like this, just watch your replays. If you fucked up at some important point, just store that information in the back of your mind. If you were being reaver dropped and panicked, and the first thing that came to your mind was "build more workers", you can trust that you'll probably never make the same mistake again. Think about what a good response would be in THAT situation. Just pause the game there, look at your tech, look at his tech. Look at your expansions and your economies.
Think about the state of the game at that point - this is gonna be the answer to "what should I do?" - it's always hidden in the current game state when the decision needed to be made. If you are a Zerg and your third base is just now getting attacked by a cluster of Zealots - pause right there in the replay. Does the Protoss have two bases? If not, there is your problem. You went three bases against a 1-base Protoss. Your focus on heavy economy did not pay off against his focus on heavy Zealots.
So what is the fix? Going for more unit-heavy builds? Possibly, but one very logical fix is to stick with the same build and just scout to see if the Protoss is going 1-base (like 2-gate or 3-gate). That way, you can do the same build, but if you happen against that 1-base Toss build you will know to scale back on the econ slightly in order to have proper defense.
This is just an example.
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In summary: act and react quickly during the game without too much thought given to any decision. Just do something.
After the games, analyze what's going on, which decisions were good, which decisions were bad. Take a look at points in the game where bad decisions were made. Look at every aspect of the game at that moment of decision - the answer to "what do I do?" lies within that instant.
/edit - I don't think I made the point of my post clear. Most problems you can fix on your own. Most of the rest of the problems you can fix by watching replays. Any other problems can be fixed by watching VODs. So in a sense, the forum should be viewed as a way to attain good access to these three resources (the brains of those who have fixed their own problems in the past, good replays to watch, and VODs).
This doesn't fix the problem of the forum membership being inaccessible, but it should help with approaching problems on your own.
Just for the record, I am a noob, and this approach makes me 100000x better.
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yeah, i'm pretty sure that starcraft can be learned a lot faster with the proper drills in mind
remember that one thread "d macro secrets" that hotbid renamed?
it went something like "d players, play against a single computer on power overwhelming and max out as soon as you can, once you can do this in your sleep you just got so much better"
i think that's the way to be training: you drill in other sports, there's no reason not to drill in sc
at the very least you should be playing one matchup/map at a time.
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Wow, I didn't really know that I'd get this many replies! Or any at that matter. Thanks for reading, and for the advice!
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First off, to address my comment about TL and other such sites: I wasn't saying that these sites should immediately change the way people help others learn the game. I've learned all of what I know about SC from forums like these, and I'm hugely thankful that they exist (thanks Chill et al!). What I was saying is that there is also room for a 'softer' approach (as I put it) that helps people start off learning in the first place. To a newbie, reading through something like Liquipedia can be overwhelming, and just having someone say "this is how I got started playing" is huge comfort at the very least. My intent isn't to compete with other strat sources - once players get comfortable with the game, hopefully they can move on digest the technical side with ease and knowing how to put it in context.
Context is huge. When you start playing Starcraft, or any other game, where do you begin? What's important for you to start with? Is micro really that important at this stage? Is timing? More importantly, what will win you the game? These are the questions that I had to answer myself by piecing together bits of advice from many different players, but for most they really had no reason why - it was just how they got started. "I just started reading sites and playing." Yeah, you could do that, and eventually over time you may muddle your way through it and figure out the context. But why does it have to be this way? Why can't there be a method to learning the game for new players that is welcoming to them?
Some may think this is spoon-feeding, and that figuring out that context is a 'rite of passage' of sorts. Well, this is the kind of analysis that's done on almost every other established sport, as a way of easing new participants into complex games without overwhelming them. I believe there is plenty of room in E-sports for the same thing.
Finally, I want to touch on the idea of 'learning' something. I've already talked about context, which informs when and why you should learn something. But there's also the how. And like I said before, I don't think that simply 'mass playing' is the most efficient way of learning. Even take something as simple as '1a2a3a' (a comment I think that'll haunt me for a while), how do you go about learning it? That kind of keyboard movement at high-speed requires fairly developed fine-motor control, which can be trained in a myriad of ways. Which one did you use? Did you just practice in game? My point isn't to linger on this specific issue, and I don't think it's really that important (context..), but what I'm saying is that it is vitally important to look at how we learn, especially for new players.
Starcraft is fun to me, otherwise I wouldn't be playing it. But if I can help in some way encourage more players to join in on the fun, then I'll certainly try! The learning curve for this game is steep, but with some work hopefully that can be remedied.
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Thanks again! I'll make my first real post later tonight about learning builds context!
Denotate
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That was quite a nice post, Denotate.
The thing with TL is that the site has been around for a long long time, since the beginning of the maturation of progaming actually. As a result, many people posting here are quite skilled at the game (this is especially true since many top foreigners are active posters of this website). Understandably, the advices given by those people will be more advanced and geared towards people with a firm grasp of the basics. If you are looking for beginner advice, perhaps TL is not the best place to seek help.
This is the summary:
Different forums serve different purposes, and the strategy section is just not for those who are just starting. Seek other websites to complement the information you read on TL.
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We can't do the work for you.
I teach guitar, and while I have many ways to solve various problems, none of them work without just putting the effort.
Play the game, find your problem, spend time fixing it, then ask a question.
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liquidpedia will help a lot with terminology and stuff like that. i felt the same way reading about poker.
maybe the strat forum needs a change. maybe, only for that forum, something kind of like yahoo answers, where a person (or even just a mod) selects the best answer(s) and deletes others
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On January 15 2010 07:18 Denotate wrote:
The last game I played last night was lost just like the previous three were: the Protoss went for the early reaver, I panicked, lost most of my marines and my first tank, felt frustrated and fell apart mentally. He moved in with goons and I gg'd.
You sound like you got caught with your pants down. It happens to everyone. Every good player has had this problem. Even the pros still have this problem too.
Proper turret placement (note that perfect turret placement is not required) will help a lot, as well as figuring out right when the turrets need to be placed. This will take some analysis of the game. Look at the replays, and figure out what supply you are at (or gas remaining in your geyser, as that is a really good benchmark) when the reaver gets to your base. Then time yourself backwards to find out when you need to make the engineering bay. Then make it 1 or 2 supply early (or 50-100 gas early), just to give yourself a 15 second or so buffer (in case you are busy with something at the time).
If you do these kinds of things, you will notice a big improvement in your game. It is not the kind of advice that a top level player is looking for though. It is the kind of advice that any beginner needs. As you get better, you can refine your game.
Now I fully appreciate anyone who's willing to spend their time helping other players improve, but the problem with the forum format is that you've got a series of different opinions (often conflicting) displayed without much context from someone who doesn't know you or your game. Not to mention the fact that as a new player, when I get reaver dropped (for example), my mind isn't churning over a cold-hard calculation of my timing mistakes, or thinking five steps down the road in my game plan. I'm panicking.
That panicking will become less of an issue as you play more. Back when I first switched to Z, I panicked the second I saw that second corsair get into my main, always wondering if he was going for 2 stargates. Now I time the time it takes between when the first shows up and the second, so I don't need to float the nearest overlord into his base to check, make a couple myself, build an evo chamber, and 3 creep colonies, and make a couple of hydras instantly. I used to play a little over-responsive, however, as I played more, I learned more.
Two weeks ago I decided that I was done simply watching the competitive Starcraft scene from the sidelines, and that it was time to learn the game for myself. Using TL as a learning base, I began to pick up tidbits of info here and there, practicing each one a bit then working it into my game. But while sites like TL excel at carefully documenting the technical side of the Starcraft, what I really wanted was a resource dedicated to what I call the 'softer' sides of the game: how it is learned, and what the learning is experience is like from a personal standpoint.
There is a lot more to this game than what you will see on TL, or any site about Starcraft. One of the easiest ways to get used to the controls of Starcraft would be to go into the Campaign, and play them. Multiple times if needed. After that, play some Fastest/BGH games (to work on macro skills), and some Micro Tourney games (to work on the micromanagement). Then start playing some 1v1 games, incorporating any strategies you know in 1v1 (playing them out against a computer is a good way to learn them), the macro you learned in Fastest/BGH, and the micro you learned in the Micro Tourney games. You do not need to be perfect at any aspect of the game to be able to win games at the D level.
I'm always looking for the most efficient route to learning something, and that often means breaking that thing down and determining what its first principles are. With Starcraft I feel that the conventional wisdom on training (play play play) is hugely inefficient. Why? Well, I have a few ideas, but I need time to work them out. Suffice it to say that there is no other sport out there where training consists primarily of playing the game alone - not one. There has to be a better way.
You can hone specific skills in Starcraft. Mouse precision can be worked on through various online flash games. Hotkey precision can be imprinted by repetition, until it is merely muscle memory. Build orders can be refined by playing them against a non-opponent, and then watching how well you followed the proper build order. Micromanagement can be worked on via things like Micro Tourney. Macromanagement is all about timing, and that can be worked on via Fastest/BGH games. But, ultimately, those are only the skills, how well you can put them to use in a game is a different story.
Starcraft is very chaotic, things don't always happen as planned. You need to learn how to adjust. That is where experience comes into play. You cannot improve that without playing, however, you improve all of the other skills while playing as well. That is why "play, play, play" is still the best way to improve.
For me, Starcraft represents a challenge, the kind of which I've never attempted before. My background is athletics, so I'm familiar with exploring the intricacies of physical training and finding the best routines for my body, something I've yet to really do with the mental side. And hey, by the time I decide to stop doing this I might still be hovering around D on ICCUP, but hopefully at the very least I can provide a resource for new players looking for someone else who will help them through their 'early-game'.
Find a friend to play against, who is of a similar skill, so you can have a bit of a rivalry going. You will get used to facing a specific style of play, and will learn the in's and out's of defeating it. It will also teach you how to adapt to the unknown (because your opponent will be adjusting his/her play in an attempt to beat your play), and it will teach you how to do the unexpected. By playing a single person, they will eventually show you weaknesses in your play, which will allow you to adjust, removing your own weaknesses.
Join the ICCUP Training Program, and try to get someone to help you improve your game. There are always people hanging around the channel. I know it helped me improve (that and watching Day[9], and receiving information/criticism on this site). Anyone who can mentor you, even for a single game, will provide a new perspective on your game.
EDIT - fixed quote tags
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General comment: Starctraft as a game is not very easy for a new player to get into. There are so many good players around and the learning curve is quite steep. Lots of practice is critical before you really start to enjoy online games.
That said, if I read your post correctly, your issue is not with the difficulty of the game itself, but with way it is explained to new players. Here I would note that very polite and gentle explanations tend to be rather wordy - there is a trade off. New readers are also trusted to learn the lingo on their own, which makes explanations shorter and discussions more focused on material issues.
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EPT
