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United States41589 Posts
On December 25 2009 22:10 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:45 KwarK wrote:On December 25 2009 21:35 EtherealDeath wrote:On December 25 2009 21:24 KwarK wrote:
Any B player on icc immediately counts the drones upon scouting on HBR. If there's one missing then they know what's up. Of course some sneakier zergs use the gas trick to get an extra drone just to fuck with you but Shine didn't even do that. He told Stork what was up and Stork didn't listen. And you shouldn't simcity your own nexus in PvZ because you need ground mobility for fighting mutalisks. While Stork can macro/micro/multitask decently his theory is severely lacking in areas I consider fairly basic.
He deserved to lose game 3. What do you do when you see it coming? I thought Stork knew it was coming (since he did check with a probe just in case) but in any case I don't see what he could've done other than keep probes blocking the rear entrance for quite a while like he did, which in the end still fucks over your economy. The part where he sim citied his main nexus was rather bad, but even if hadn't, wouldn't his nat have been fucked? The thing is, on HBR I have no idea what to expect after the initial gayness. If it's mutas, I'm going to have to put up cannons in the min line, but at the same time that will make me weaker against against hydras. If I am lucky and manage to sneak in a probe, then of course I can find out what is going on and cancel cannons if I had put them up already and he goes hydra, but I'm not always so lucky. But the latter part is just standard on any map. The most annoying part for me is that it comes with the possibility of my economy getting fucked early game. I have no idea how really to deal with it efficiently, and that mindset leads to me doing worse in games on HBR than on any other map ;/ Remember you see the missing drone before you've even placed a cannon (2 player maps ftw). You move your cannons to anti runby locations. You then fake not scouting it. There's all sorts of ways you can turn it back on them. They think the situation is that they have options like runthrough which you don't know about. Actually the situation is you know about their options but they don't know you know. Often when they think it's unscouted zergs will rape their own eco for lings and suicide themselves into cannons they weren't expecting which is always lol. If you want to be really sexy you just place a cannon on your main minline and don't bother walling at all or put 2 probes in your choke and pylon as he runs through. It's only initial gayness if they have the knowledge and you don't. If you have the knowledge and they don't you can reverse it on them. Shine didn't really commit to the runthrough but he didn't have to because Stork lost a huge amount of mining time which fucked him. Better cannon placements would have stopped 6 slowlings running through without needing any probes so we can assume an extra few hundred minerals if he wasn't an idiot. That means his first corsair scouts better and doesn't die. That means his mutalisk attack is met by cannons and 3 corsairs which in turn means he has 2 gas for longer and can get 4 more ht to meet the hydras. If the zerg does what Shine did, opening by mining through then not committing to it, and the the P does what any good player does, adapting by better cannon placements and not needing probes, then the game progresses as normal. The only difference is that the P needs to add a few better placed cannons vs hydra pressure later should that occur and the Z takes his third about 30 seconds later than normal. Isn't the alternate cannon placement for anti backstab worse against ling/hydra all-in since they won't be in the proper position to back up the later cannons you put up? Although I suppose I should be able to survive that allin relatively fine if he basically wastes a drone at the start.
You shouldn't have lost your first scout probe if they only have slowlings. HBR is a decent map for keeping them alive, especially when you're 3. If he gets speedlings that simply compounds the economic damage he's doing to himself. In that context it's not too much to pay to get another 3 cannons at the front. You have a significant economic advantage from FEing without taking any damage against his drone missing ling opening. Minerals are cheap and survival is victory. If he hasn't got speedlings you see what's up. If he has got them, well, that's useful information too.
One other trick for HBR that it's worth being aware of is that it's very easy for any player of any skill to drill probes across his back mineral with a pylon.You simply get the probe into the corner with the mineral and the temple and pylon and it just happens. It's way easier than outsider or medusa for that. That trick is great for scouting because you can head to the nat, get your path blocked by lings and then have them chase you to the 3rd, whereupon you jump across and get a head start on the way to his main.
It's always a bitch to stop hydraling allins but it's no harder than anywhere else on HBR imo. You'd normally have to add a cannon or two to be safe vs it anyway. Now you have to add the normal amount plus two to make up for the two at the back. However that's not expensive when you consider that the two at the back were already paid for by him in lost mining time and drones. It all evens out.
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United States41589 Posts
On December 25 2009 22:15 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:59 KwarK wrote:
Movie will succeed where Bisu and Stork failed. The two core aspects of his style, excellent reaver use and sticking on 2 bases forever, will let him weather the midgame storm and then the hanbang he unleashes at the start of the lategame will smash shit up. There's a decent chance that it will become very ugly and messy because both of these guys don't have much finesse, I'm thinking Violet vs Shine on destination all over again -_-
Either way, I'm sure as hell gonna watch it. It's probably the series I'm most looking forward to. Movie has been playing the most innovative PvZ of anyone recently. Him and Stork have been pretty much representing Protoss alone, and Stork only by sheer force of skill. Movie excites me.
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I can't believe you even made this blog. You just provided another outlet for all the bitter Shine haters.
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Shine is my least favorite progamer now. 
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On December 25 2009 21:18 scyper wrote:
It is because he has knocked out Bisu and Stork.
Bisu in the finals of MSL would be more epic than Shine.
Stork vs Flash is WAY more epic than a Shine vs Flash.
Not to mention that would be sooo one sided..
UGHHHHHHHHH
I HATE SHINEEEEEE
In theory if shine > stork then a shine vs flash finals would be more epics :O
But seriously shine just handed flash his second osl gold so im happy :D
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Shine is a brilliant player. I'm sure Bisu got the same type of hate when he powned mabownja...(savior)
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On December 25 2009 21:17 Kenpachi wrote:
Movie > Shine
Movie > Shine.
Movie < Shine
Movie < Shine
Movie < Shine
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United States12607 Posts
Stork played like he had his head ten feet up his ass in that series…what the hell was he doing out there? Definitely sealed his reputation for having an achilles heel PvZ.
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On December 25 2009 22:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 22:15 Waxangel wrote:On December 25 2009 21:59 KwarK wrote:
Movie will succeed where Bisu and Stork failed. The two core aspects of his style, excellent reaver use and sticking on 2 bases forever, will let him weather the midgame storm and then the hanbang he unleashes at the start of the lategame will smash shit up. There's a decent chance that it will become very ugly and messy because both of these guys don't have much finesse, I'm thinking Violet vs Shine on destination all over again -_- Either way, I'm sure as hell gonna watch it. It's probably the series I'm most looking forward to. Movie has been playing the most innovative PvZ of anyone recently. Him and Stork have been pretty much representing Protoss alone, and Stork only by sheer force of skill. Movie excites me.
Im sorry for my ignorance but what's exactly so innovative about movie's play? In game's of his I saw he did fairly standard stuff.
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On December 26 2009 00:58 JWD wrote:
Stork played like he had his head ten feet up his ass in that series…what the hell was he doing out there? Definitely sealed his reputation for having an achilles heel PvZ.
I thought he was quite brilliant in game 2
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Shine is fucking baller
the korean commentary during his games is always hilarious
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On December 25 2009 21:09 Beachac wrote:
SHINE WHAT A FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT FUCKING PIECE OF NIGGER SHIT FAGGOT ZERG
On December 25 2009 21:10 MuffinDude wrote:
GOD FUCKING DAMIT FUCK THE LAG FUCK THE ZERG FUCK THIS OSL
On December 25 2009 21:10 De4ngus wrote:
What the fuck Shine. You don't deserve this at all.
On December 25 2009 21:10 Jee-Host wrote:
I want all gay zergs to immediately DIE
On December 25 2009 21:10 scyper wrote:
shines a jackass!!
On December 25 2009 21:11 Draffut wrote:
What a fucking tool shine is. Come back after you learn anything besides OPalisk micro.
On December 25 2009 21:11 Crunchums wrote:
fuck you shine you fucking fuck do you fucking think you're fuck fuckfukcfukcufk so fucking posisssssssed arrrrrrrrrrrh fuck
On December 25 2009 21:12 SkelA wrote:
HORIBLE STREAM HORIBLE GAMES HORIBLE FLASH + CALM CHEESEFEST WOHOO NICE DAY
On December 25 2009 21:13 MuffinDude wrote:
FUCKING LAG FUCKING CHEESE FUCKING ZERG GAYNESS FUCKING GAY CHRISTMAS PRESENTS.
On December 25 2009 21:13 o3.power91 wrote:
I'm sorry but if a Starleague has Shine in the semifinals, I can't take it seriously.
On December 25 2009 21:21 Xiphos wrote:
Well, I can ACTUALLY find a replay of a D level Iccup player mine out the backdoor mineral patches and then attempt to make a zergling runby, ruin the toss' economy and then just send in Mutalisk to get the main with a followup of Hydra break. You don't even need 200 apm for that!
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On December 25 2009 21:15 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:14 Megalisk wrote:
He is deserving..but I hope he gets fucking crushed. Me too, but only because he's playing Movie.
Exactly, what I think.
[e] epic post by DoctorHelvetica!
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The moment stork put his first pylon down I smelled trouble. I thought "misplaced" immediately. But I guess stork is a fan of the second sim city variation on HBR. I don't get why people use that sim city tbh, IT SUCKS AGAINST PEOPLE MINING OUT THE BACK ROUTE MINERAL. Probably twice as hard to defend against a ling han bang, plus the forge and gateway are farther away from the canons and will in 10 out of 10 cases be sniped immediately if there's a hydra bust. Plus he doesn't have any fucking place to place new canons except behind his initial canon line (which will be partly blocked by the nexus). The fron of the canon line partly blocked by forge and gateway.
Trashy sim city which i bet Jangbi taught him.
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On December 25 2009 21:24 KwarK wrote:
Any B player on icc immediately counts the drones upon scouting on HBR. If there's one missing then they know what's up. Of course some sneakier zergs use the gas trick to get an extra drone just to fuck with you but Shine didn't even do that. He told Stork what was up and Stork didn't listen. And you shouldn't simcity your own nexus in PvZ because you need ground mobility for fighting mutalisks. While Stork can macro/micro/multitask decently his theory is severely lacking in areas I consider fairly basic.
He deserved to lose game 3.
Shine did do extractor trick in that game... Look at his supply at 2:40-2:48 on Jon's video. 10/9
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EPT
