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On July 21 2009 16:14 Ace wrote:
agreed with only playing in vet/games without retards BC - games like this make the rage come out :'(
Man, soon as I got my role, I wanted to auto troll game into mod kill, but was basically told by ver/qatol issues would arise from it (outside obvious ban on tl most likely). So yes, some bad plays, but at day 4, plexa had clue raped alot of mafia, im surprised that after like 2 failed lynches, the town let pyrr continue leading them with that bad analysis, but bleh. I just need a new playstyle to get me back into wanting to play, and I think smurfing would fix it. Being a known name limits what you can do as anything not in norm behaviour from previous games gets you killed. Its such a hard slope, be a red and have to lie and plot and scheme while playing similar to normal, or be green repeatedly and get bored of the same thing. Smurfing is the only option left to me 
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United States2186 Posts
I still don't get why nobody ever rereads the thread or tries to look beyond the open suspects. The votelists incriminated nearly every mafia very early on.
I dunno, how can we get people to improve?
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On July 21 2009 16:19 Ver wrote:
I still don't get why nobody ever rereads the thread or tries to look beyond the open suspects. The votelists incriminated nearly every mafia very early on.
I dunno, how can we get people to improve?
I told them to look at the votelists =\
but yea, I dunno. I see some very good potentials as really good players with a few more games, so not all is bad.
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On July 21 2009 16:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2009 16:05 Malongo wrote:On July 21 2009 15:32 Ace wrote:
Honestly though Plexa, I would have thought BC was mafia also. Lynching MBH was like a huge "I'm mafia suck my dick" move of the game. I can understand why Bockit did it. OMG please someone at least has to believe this. BC: hey im just going on other plan because i want. WTF. Thats why i came insta all in against him. And note that the first fucktard was me ok stupidity where it belongs. Btw Plexa i want to check that weather list please. Congratulations mafia you had the game 2 days ago. I made some bad plays, but your final 3 mafia list was horrible. You didnt have 1 in the group of 3. None of you thought of the move logically, Maybe I would have been better off killing L/pyrr/fishball or the like, ie someone who could lead down as well. But on the off chance one of L/pyrr/mbh/fishball was red or any other bigname, mbh scares me the most. Just as if qatol or ver were in the game i would hit one of them over mbh as they both scare me more than mbh and can manipulate the game just as well. Yes, I will admit I could have used the plan on someone else, but in this game mbh, if revived, would have enough information hopefully to completely rape the mafia, almost autowinning the game.
Not too sure about that and if you are going to dependant on MBH every game please stop appearing in ALL the mayor lists. I better play RPS or roll a dice seeing if mbh turns red, green or blue. I try my best. Always. Im not playing a game following some guy because he is good, sorry i prefer 100% be the loser crazy guy. And for leader I wanted L. I voted L. You won the office. You were the leader. Trying to look for another player to take the lead just made you suspicious. Next time you want the office be the leader or let others take it.
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Clues were very interesting (btw, googling "julia leather strap nose" brings up the aforementioned Mr. Julia, but I never did that oops), can't believe no one else caught on to the medusa thing.
Glad I got the ecomania thing and in PMs to Foolishness I was like, motbob's a walking watchtower??
Never would have gotten the Pyrr one though, and your HARSH reaction to my (wrong  ) clue thing made me question you very much but then I just ignored you after that, lol oops.
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Btw where'd you come up with "foxglove seeds"?
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On July 21 2009 16:34 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2009 16:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 21 2009 16:05 Malongo wrote:On July 21 2009 15:32 Ace wrote:
Honestly though Plexa, I would have thought BC was mafia also. Lynching MBH was like a huge "I'm mafia suck my dick" move of the game. I can understand why Bockit did it. OMG please someone at least has to believe this. BC: hey im just going on other plan because i want. WTF. Thats why i came insta all in against him. And note that the first fucktard was me ok stupidity where it belongs. Btw Plexa i want to check that weather list please. Congratulations mafia you had the game 2 days ago. I made some bad plays, but your final 3 mafia list was horrible. You didnt have 1 in the group of 3. None of you thought of the move logically, Maybe I would have been better off killing L/pyrr/fishball or the like, ie someone who could lead down as well. But on the off chance one of L/pyrr/mbh/fishball was red or any other bigname, mbh scares me the most. Just as if qatol or ver were in the game i would hit one of them over mbh as they both scare me more than mbh and can manipulate the game just as well. Yes, I will admit I could have used the plan on someone else, but in this game mbh, if revived, would have enough information hopefully to completely rape the mafia, almost autowinning the game. Not too sure about that and if you are going to dependant on MBH every game please stop appearing in ALL the mayor lists. I better play RPS or roll a dice seeing if mbh turns red, green or blue. I try my best. Always. Im not playing a game following some guy because he is good, sorry i prefer 100% be the loser crazy guy. And for leader I wanted L. I voted L. You won the office. You were the leader. Trying to look for another player to take the lead just made you suspicious. Next time you want the office be the leader or let others take it.
Actually, by setting up a situation to give a 100% confirmed role reigns to the town (also someone who ran way late for mayor) the position should be a sign that I'm not mafia. Mafia would never willingly give up power, especially when I got fingered as the gf. Gf in this setup would never run for election as he can cover a regular mafia and have them take the role + get a regular red bg protection offchance the mafia dies, less kp lost and bigger loss on town in double lynches.
I did some bad plays, but if you look at the sum of things i would be viewed as a) insanely obvious mafia, or b) asshole townie
You'd figure people would know I'm not dumb enough to be a super obvious mafia, and instead be labeled as the tool I was =\. Overall town followed the breadcrumbs the mafia left towards other townie doors.
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USA5860 Posts
I don't see why you are all bashing BC's idea so hard. Lynching MBH has a lot of pros and cons. It was just a matter of weighing them. IF the town managed to get even a SINGLE protect on Judge we would of lost instantly. Yes his plan had flaws, but all plans have their flaws. His benefits meant an auto win, and if he didn't kill MBH, I guarantee we would have. We all knew he was a threat and we were panicking about how to hit to make sure he didn't get rezzed. We caught the rage/berserk hint and got Judge, we had about 4 other candidates as well?
The plan has its pros and cons, a bad bit of luck combined with mafia skill and town ineptitude resulted in the cons far exceeding the pros.
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On July 21 2009 17:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I don't see why you are all bashing BC's idea so hard. Lynching MBH has a lot of pros and cons. It was just a matter of weighing them. IF the town managed to get even a SINGLE protect on Judge we would of lost instantly. Yes his plan had flaws, but all plans have their flaws. His benefits meant an auto win, and if he didn't kill MBH, I guarantee we would have. We all knew he was a threat and we were panicking about how to hit to make sure he didn't get rezzed. We caught the rage/berserk hint and got Judge, we had about 4 other candidates as well?
The plan has its pros and cons, a bad bit of luck combined with mafia skill and town ineptitude resulted in the cons far exceeding the pros.
I thought you were on vacation  . First i didnt found the plan "that" suspicious, i found it bad, but not automatically mafia-like. It was the conception: first a supposed list of people where to take a lynch, then from a moment to other: hey change of plans!!. That is mafia like. Nobody, absolutely nobody had a word about the plan or why suddenly BC changes the direction. This wasnt a primary plan, it just poped from BC. Should this had been in the BCs to do list I would have told imo bad plan. The way it was played absolutely mafia like. And its not because its BC, anyone that changes plans at the last moment without caring a shit about the office rol is calling to get lynched.
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I don't buy it. The plan just makes no sense because look at what you're saying, even if assumptions have to be made:
1.) MBH is such a good player he will automatically find all the mafia
2.) Kill him, find his alignment and hope he is revived
Now look at why it doesn't make sense. If that's what you are basing the idea on then why not just let him live and find the Mafia for you anyway. You just said Mafia would have tried to kill him - the Priest would revive him anyway if he flipped green and instead of BC catching hell for it MBH would have lived a day longer and helped the town out. What you did was literally silence him for the entire game with a really sketchy plan. No matter how many times you spin it killing off one of your best players in any game of mafia will always draw questioning.
ETA: Malongo brings up a good point because that is the same thing that got Ver in trouble last game lol.
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Maybe the town should have publicly clue analyzed the priest to help the medics lol
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United States2186 Posts
I think the biggest argument for killing MBH early is that if he is mafia he is virtually guaranteed to kill the priest by day 2 and the priest is such a broken role that it can singlehandedly win the game. Furthermore MBH is really the only superstrong behavior analyst in the game, so if he is out of the picture you don't have to worry about the priest getting sniped early. There were definitely better plans available to abuse the priest further (or hell just lynch a mafia), but BC's was okay. It's like a DT drop PvT, if it works you auto win, if not you still have a solid shot at victory.
As it stood mafia ended up getting priest by clues which thwarted everything, but it's impossible to predict that the priest would end up having obvious clues to them the day before.
Oh one other thing. Number one rule of behavior analysis:
Kill the guy trying to seem not suspicious, not the guy who makes himself suspicious on his own.
Town early on always goes for the guys who look guilty but are really innocent while the mafia hides in the background. It's really really easy to fall victim to; I still have trouble avoiding the lure of the easy target.
If I'm mafia I won't want to draw attention to myself by coin flipping my lynch target because I'm too tired/sick to think. Similarly, if BC was mafia he would make it his plan from the start to avoid drawing any unnecessary attention instead of doing a last minute switch.
But either way BC should never have died because he controlled the double lynch.
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On July 21 2009 18:10 Ver wrote:
I think the biggest argument for killing MBH early is that if he is mafia he is virtually guaranteed to kill the priest by day 2 and the priest is such a broken role that it can singlehandedly win the game. Furthermore MBH is really the only superstrong behavior analyst in the game, so if he is out of the picture you don't have to worry about the priest getting sniped early. There were definitely better plans available to abuse the priest further (or hell just lynch a mafia), but BC's was okay. It's like a DT drop PvT, if it works you auto win, if not you still have a solid shot at victory.
As it stood mafia ended up getting priest by clues which thwarted everything, but it's impossible to predict that the priest would end up having obvious clues to them the day before.
Oh one other thing. Number one rule of behavior analysis:
Kill the guy trying to seem not suspicious, not the guy who makes himself suspicious on his own.
Town early on always goes for the guys who look guilty but are really innocent while the mafia hides in the background. It's really really easy to fall victim to; I still have trouble avoiding the lure of the easy target.
If I'm mafia I won't want to draw attention to myself by coin flipping my lynch target because I'm too tired/sick to think. Similarly, if BC was mafia he would make it his plan from the start to avoid drawing any unnecessary attention instead of doing a last minute switch.
But either way BC should never have died because he controlled the double lynch.
I can buy your argument about not lynching the guys too suspicious at the beggining up to certain level but it fails to apply on the guy in the lead. I mean under this assumption we shouldnt have killed Qatol when he was mafia mayor. The fact is that this fail olympically to apply to mayors/kings/emperors w.e. because once mafia takes the leader place what he wants the most is to create as much chaos as he can before getting lynched (and in fact he wants to get lynched because that means more chaos). Never, not even once a mafia mayor has tried to be in alive for more than 4 days.
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United States2186 Posts
You're looking at it the wrong way and/or I explained it poorly.
Qatol was doing his best to appear as an ordinary townie. He made the medic lists, tried to organize 'traps' to bait the mafia, and made logical sounding posts.
On the other hand you had Quickstriker, inertinept, Versatile, and Ace, who all made themselves suspicious on their own. Of course there were other aspects to that game but it was a great example of this principle. Then just look at last game; both Ace and I made ourselves extremely suspicious on our own and we both wanted to kill each other because of it, yet the real mafia were the ones posting in ways to avoid getting noticed.
I'm not saying the innocents played correctly (indeed part of their goal is to communicate their innocence) but this is a really common pattern that is rarely broken.
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gj pyrr. you had me. i had a little doubt when you didnt disagree one bit when i suggested infun to you and you were one of those people who voted for me when Malongo raged about us voting for chaoser. but i basically didnt have enough time to think. too busy in RL. TT.
GG guys. Thanks Plexa for hosting the game.
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MBH can't find out who the priest is if he's mafia unless people tell him or word gets around. He can't find out your roles by reading your posts. The fact that "if MBH was mafia" is also irrelevant because you can't play the game of lynching people with no evidence on that premise alone.
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On July 21 2009 18:55 iLoveKT wrote: Thanks Plexa for hosting the game.
Oh, yeah I forgot. Thank you Plexa!
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Was quite positive Pyrr was Mafia, exactly the same thing as with Qatol. Chezinu looked like a mafia in the last voting, but it didn't matter before that... I kind of forgot he even was playing. However, after everyone joining in on the voting of Lenwe, it was pretty certain he wasn't Mafia.
I'd like to hear some reasoning for those hits from some of the mafia... many still don't make sense to me, but maybe it's because I'm a nubbie. ^_^ Well hosted Plexa, really entertaining writing and it was really even, although the setup might still require some changes. Pyrr was so totally like Qatol, well played. People should really start worrying about Bandwagons more, why do they keep voting? Check all the lynch votes, how many complete bandwagons were mafia and how many mafia lynches were complete bandwagons? Yeah.
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On July 21 2009 18:37 Ver wrote:
You're looking at it the wrong way and/or I explained it poorly.
Qatol was doing his best to appear as an ordinary townie. He made the medic lists, tried to organize 'traps' to bait the mafia, and made logical sounding posts.
On the other hand you had Quickstriker, inertinept, Versatile, and Ace, who all made themselves suspicious on their own. Of course there were other aspects to that game but it was a great example of this principle. Then just look at last game; both Ace and I made ourselves extremely suspicious on our own and we both wanted to kill each other because of it, yet the real mafia were the ones posting in ways to avoid getting noticed.
I'm not saying the innocents played correctly (indeed part of their goal is to communicate their innocence) but this is a really common pattern that is rarely broken.
Yeah i think i can understand your point: mafia doesnt want to be in the eye at anytime of the game and less at the start. On the other side there are always uncooperative townies that try hard to look suspicious or make weird moves. However if theres one guy that should be trying (even more than mafia if he is townie) not to look suspicious in any posible way is the mayor. The mayor is the guy that will stay alive longer, the guy that proposed a plan of action and the guy that has a known power. After reviewing this game and last game I dont regret the lynchs for a moment. Thats why I was so shocked after BC. Im not asking the guy in charge to pull a miracle first lynch or come with the most impressive one post analysis for every player or first day clue analysis. I just ask him to be consequent: dont make fancy moves, dont change the plan at last moment, dont make like you are fishing, because that make the guys with no power doubt. Look at the "best" mayor we had: sog. Sure he was lucky with a dt role, first day lynch and a first day rolecheck. But look at his posting too: "dont roleclaim to me", "dont vote with be blindly", "you know what? im going to abstain for now because i dont want to create bandwagon", "im going to be 100% transparent". The central point here is that every small doubt you can add to a player's real intentions in the game is multiplied x10 when we talk about the leader: he "is" the voice, he "is" the one pulling the strings publicly or the one you can at least "suspect" has a blue role or knows something you dont for the good of the town. I agree that my logic can be not a general rule or may be extremately flawed, however the fact that 3 times the mayor was lynched tells me it has a degree of logic to be that way, maybe it is not 100% logic but empiric in last instance. Look at Bockit, I think L would have lynched BC too. Look at last game L, Ace and who knows how many more: we were actually convinced enough to lynch the leaders because they were simply not solid, they had a small amount of doubt on them even with other townies making stupid moves or more suspicious moves. As I said to Qatol when he was mafia mayor: you dont fish or do weird moves as mayor: that just create chaos and inestability when you are actualy the face of stability, if you do that you are asking yourself to get lynched
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Self owned.
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EPT
