|
Okay, so this map is basically a protected version of Colo... Easily accessible 3 gas bases. I understand that every race gets the same three gas, but I think it may get slightly unbalanced at certain points in the game. I am not complaining that the map is imbalanced, but I want to know what timings and what builds I need in order to successfully win vs the other two races here.
I think that the Zerg especially gets a huge benefit from being able to sit on 3 extremely close bases with 3rd gas. This makes hive tech so much easier to pull out and any form of sunk break // early rush won't be as efficient because of that expo inside the main. What kind of build can the T do to be on par with what the Zerg can do? Faster tech to vessels? 2 Fact 2 Port? Mech every game? It's obvious that the third and fourth gas for Z is extremely essential, so I'd like to know the T's benefits of having that third gas.
TvP is a little more balanced I think, but I still think T gets less benefits from that third gas than P. P can pull out a lot more high templars and arbiters faster, and just like Z, they get an easier third. I guess since P has to have more bases than T, they're still forced to get a fourth base going but I'd rather do a 2 T-Base vs 3 P-Base than a 3T vs 4P because of timing builds. I am not sure on this, but wouldn't the 4/5/6 fact timing pushes have to be modified due to the Protoss being able to get a much faster and safer third? Is the Flash build the best build for this map?
And dropship play for that cliff on the expo inside the base seemed no more than decent to me... vs Zerg muta/scourge will rape it and if P went shuttle I think it's easier for them to defend it than the investment T has to make.
Discuss~
|
Well I think God's Garden is like most really macro-oriented maps: you have to play with big quantities of units. You HAVE to learn to macro well with 2fact+2port+10-12 rax vs Z, with 10-15 facts vs P. You have to learn those timings, like when T has 160-170 and toss has just maxed out is usually a decent window since you'll reinforce soon. vs Z you have to use tank pushes with mass vessels and m&m or gols, but BIG ones.
With TvT though you can play normal dropship/push playstyle.
Edit: you'll eventually hit the three bases next to you so you may even need to add many production buildings after capping 200. It's macro, what can I say.
|
konadora
Singapore66062 Posts
These are some of the builds I tend to use on God's Garden. I'm like 8-1 TvZ so far 
11 rax -> CC at back expo -> 3/3 200/200 Mech army or 2 fact bionic with siege tank/mnm drops in the cliffs.
2 fact vulture with speed and mine dual upgrade. Zerg tends to get greedy on this map, so this build usually ends the game easy, if not, deals heavy economic damage.
1 base Fantasy mech build -> triple command -> dropships flying everywhere.
Try to send 2 dropships instead of one, against Zerg I send 2 tanks with 7 rines and 1 medic, reinforced with a valkyrie or two. Against Protoss, I send 2~3 dropships, with 2 tanks and 4/8 goliaths depending on whether it's mid or late game.
|
On April 27 2009 15:36 konadora wrote:These are some of the builds I tend to use on God's Garden. I'm like 8-1 TvZ so far
11 rax -> CC at back expo -> 3/3 200/200 Mech army or 2 fact bionic with siege tank/mnm drops in the cliffs.
2 fact vulture with speed and mine dual upgrade. Zerg tends to get greedy on this map, so this build usually ends the game easy, if not, deals heavy economic damage.
1 base Fantasy mech build -> triple command -> dropships flying everywhere. Try to send 2 dropships instead of one, against Zerg I send 2 tanks with 7 rines and 1 medic, reinforced with a valkyrie or two. Against Protoss, I send 2~3 dropships, with 2 tanks and 4/8 goliaths depending on whether it's mid or late game.
Oh wow, this is extremely helpful. Thanks a lot! I can't believe I forgot about goliaths being an option for drops TvP. Stupid shuttles piss me off~
Thanks for the responses so far guys!
|
konadora
Singapore66062 Posts
On April 27 2009 15:51 theobsessed1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2009 15:36 konadora wrote:These are some of the builds I tend to use on God's Garden. I'm like 8-1 TvZ so far
11 rax -> CC at back expo -> 3/3 200/200 Mech army or 2 fact bionic with siege tank/mnm drops in the cliffs.
2 fact vulture with speed and mine dual upgrade. Zerg tends to get greedy on this map, so this build usually ends the game easy, if not, deals heavy economic damage.
1 base Fantasy mech build -> triple command -> dropships flying everywhere. Try to send 2 dropships instead of one, against Zerg I send 2 tanks with 7 rines and 1 medic, reinforced with a valkyrie or two. Against Protoss, I send 2~3 dropships, with 2 tanks and 4/8 goliaths depending on whether it's mid or late game. Oh wow, this is extremely helpful. Thanks a lot! I can't believe I forgot about goliaths being an option for drops TvP. Stupid shuttles piss me off~ Thanks for the responses so far guys!
In case you don't know what is 'Fantasy mech build', here it is. LINK
Scroll down to somewhere in the middle of the OP.
|
TvZ is very straightforward compared to the other MUs. This map wouldn't have been possible without TvZ mech play; it would just be too imba to even consider. In going m&m the third base is only a little helpful to T while very helpful to Z. Only reason to go m&m is to catch them by surprise. And that probably means a 5 rax timing attack.
Mech should be really strong but you need to have an advantage by the time you mine out as then a 4th base is not easy to get. But 3 gas and you can really mech hard. Any mech build is ok. Just look if they 2 or 3 hatch and pick your favorite. You can be less aggressive with it than on other maps as you can always sit on your 3 gas and mass up a big attack.
As for TvT and TvP, CC and Nexus before anything else is really strong. Of course in both cases proxy rax are strong as well because of this.
You almost either have to do that or some really aggressive play. If they expand in the back and you 2 fact and you can't win with that then you can contain and then they can't take their third while you can. Then the only thing they should be able to do is go for drops. I've also seen a progame where toss 12 nexus the natural. Maybe because 1 base drop is just really strong compared to on other maps.
Playing in the middle is kind of weak if you ask me. Maybe it can become viable the moment 12 CC/nexus is seen as that probable that proxy cheese becomes really really common. Then a safe standard build becomes viable again.
And then if you are laddering there are always people that play on an account still below their rank and thus play safe, just giving you the advantage in the opening. And then you have the people desperate for points and with no late game skill that already used to cheese every game anyway.
There are so many viable strategies on this map, it really makes it all very tricky. I don't know what to build to play as default on ladder. Im so afraid that the moment I try a 12 CC in TvT I get cheesed right away. And if I cheese myself I will run into someone playing safe and auto lose. And im not really looking for cheese autowins either. And playing from behind is also not something I want to accept.
Maybe scouting really really early is good on this map.
This map was also so puzzling to me that I wanted to make a topic about it.
|
konadora
Singapore66062 Posts
On April 27 2009 16:00 Diomedes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Mech should be really strong but you need to have an advantage by the time you mine out as then a 4th base is not easy to get. But 3 gas and you can really mech hard. Any mech build is ok. Just look if they 2 or 3 hatch and pick your favorite. You can be less aggressive with it than on other maps as you can always sit on your 3 gas and mass up a big attack.
As for TvT and TvP, CC and Nexus before anything else is really strong. Of course in both cases proxy rax are strong as well because of this.
You almost either have to do that or some really aggressive play. If they expand in the back and you 2 fact and you can't win with that then you can contain and then they can't take their third while you can. Then the only thing they should be able to do is go for drops. I've also seen a progame where toss 12 nexus the natural. Maybe because 1 base drop is just really strong compared to on other maps.
Playing in the middle is kind of weak if you ask me. Maybe it can become viable the moment 12 CC/nexus is seen as that probable that proxy cheese becomes really really common. Then a safe standard build becomes viable again.
And then if you are laddering there are always people that play on an account still below their rank and thus play safe, just giving you the advantage in the opening. And then you have the people desperate for points and with no late game skill that already used to cheese every game anyway.
There are so many viable strategies on this map, it really makes it all very tricky. I don't know what to build to play as default on ladder. Im so afraid that the moment I try a 12 CC in TvT I get cheesed right away. And if I cheese myself I will run into someone playing safe and auto lose. And im not really looking for cheese autowins either. And playing from behind is also not something I want to accept.
Maybe scouting really really early is good on this map.
This map was also so puzzling to me that I wanted to make a topic about it.
Yes, I also noticed that there were few TvP games in PL where the Protoss totally ignores the back expo, because of how prone it is to siege drops (Was it Free?).
The middle helps if you use the walls to your advantage, but other than that, try to stick to the sides.
One suggestion is that after you get your back expo, send an SCV to any free backyard expo and do a hidden expo there once your resources start becoming minerals>>>>>gas.
Kind of hard to cheese on this map though, because the center of the map is unbuildable AFAIK.
I say dropships are the key to winning on this map.
|
There is space for the proxy. It's just that in 66% of the cases it's kind of far away for a center map proxy. But that means that in 33% it's about as close as a proxy on Destination was.
In the case of a 12CC/Nexus it won't make much difference. But with normal play it will weaken the reenforcements and make it easier to defend in those 66% of the cases.
Only TvT so far as a proxy game.
|
I would think zerg might actually 2 hatch muta on this map. Usually when theres a quick third gas available you DON'T want to necessarily jump on it right away because the whole Terran gameplan will have to focus on punishing the possibility that you might.
|
fake mech - FastExpand, go (two) dropship mnm drop Z wont be preapared for it cuz he anticipates mech and he takes 2 naturals instantly, "GG", really imba start, really hard to scout it if you don't anticipate it, requires no micro, no macro, no skill just a bit of luck or the lack of unluck (sounds stupid). I will find a replay if you are intrested in it.
|
Both responses up top make sense because it makes sense to do builds that the opponent wouldn't expect at all, since the map is so predictable. Sweet.
|
konadora
Singapore66062 Posts
Two-starport wraiths work kinda well on this map too, so many blind spots.
|
I got owned by carriers TvP, although it was a D game =]
|
Havent played TvT on it but i imagine it'd be the same as a normal game..
TvP i do a normal 1fact siege expo then after 2nd fact(has addon) i take the back base(usually around 50-60 supply) get out alot of facts usually 3 on tanks and 6 on vultures and push at 200/200 with 2-1 or whatever youd like. Honestly i think this map favors a tank heavy style due to the easily accesable gases but thats just me. I also like to mix in dropship play to abuse the cliff and vulture drop etc.
TvZ ive been playing mostly mnm but after reading the above im thinking mech play would bea lot easier to do..
|
Anyone know how to wall on this map?? The mapmaker put some unbuildable terrain near the ramp to make it hard to wall in. That's so lame. T_T
I'm trying to figure out how to wall so I can 2v2 on this map. This is the best I could do:
LowerRight
Both walls are ling proof. If I do this I think i should be able to get it up in time before a 9 pool or zealot rush comes.
LowerLeft
First Wall stops zlots but not lings
Second wall is ling proof but any units from the Fac will spawn outside the wall. They'll be trapped if anyone is attacking the wall.
UpperLeft
Its not ling proof and all the units spawn outside it. So not worth it.
UpperRight
Not ling proof. Probably wont even be up in time to stop a zlot rush. Only good wall is the one at the LowerRight. Can anyone show me how to wall or give me some advice on how to go mech on this map without one? (bunker?)
|
the third base only has 2000 gas
|
konadora
Singapore66062 Posts
I try not to wall, takes too long. Try to build sim-city around your command center, then slowly block ramp with marines and/or SCV.
|
Gas are 5k main, 4k nat, and 2k backdoor.
BoT, I think FE to lots of MnM (skip mech) go vessel and drops. Abuse the cliff and close distance of the backdoor base in 7 v 5 , 5 v 3 , 11 v 7, 3 v 11.
|
i won decent amount of game using SKterran against zerg on this map o,o.
you have to abuse dropship during midgame n lategame on the cliff and 4th gas expo.
multi-task atk n drop the same time usually it will be able to keep them at 3gas. and 3base vs 3base you will be able to size up your vessel and the just Irradiate hell out of everything.
|
For the one who posted the screenies, those are nice but you definitely won't have it up before a 9pool / 2gate zeal rush lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv278/SiegeTankHero/LowerRightWall1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv278/SiegeTankHero/LowerRightWall2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv278/SiegeTankHero/LowerLeftWall1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv278/SiegeTankHero/LowerLeftWall2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv278/SiegeTankHero/UpperLeftBadWall.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv278/SiegeTankHero/UpperRightBadWall.jpg)
