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On February 17 2009 23:51 naventus wrote:
But as such, I don't really see it as something to be glorified or defended. My experience with drug users, and especially potsmokers, is that they get super butthurt and defensive (like FakeSteve) when anyone questions the rationale behind drug use. The fact is that they are just as much guilty of having a prejudiced/biased view.
I can only imagine people getting so worked up about something that is really crucial to their lives - and if defending pot use is one of them, then perhaps pot is a bigger part of who you are than you have intended it to be.
i liked what you said here. ive been smoking pot for the last six months heavily, with cigs as well, and where instead of coping with my problems with positive action, i resort oftenly to smoking pot, being around friends and forgetting my worries. i think that centers around the nature of the drug, not the drug addiction, as pot causes apathy. but to quit, even though im having apathy issues? i find myself thinking that i couldnt, or that i dont want to.
to get a bigger picture, though, i think pot has done some amazing things for me. im a cartoonist, and some of my best works are done on pot (my site: mechomics.blogspot.com). pot had made experiences i've had with my friends more vivid and alive.
side note: knowing what i know now about pot, if someone asked me "should i do it?" my response would be yes, but make sure you arent doing it more than a couple times a week. what is fucked up about drugs is most people i know that did them regularly or semi-regularly have a story where drugs had taken over. im writing my story right now, where im really starting to feel the negatives of pot but yet im clinging on to it like white on rice. in the future, when ive hit bottom and worked it out, i hope i could offer additional insights.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On March 01 2009 14:19 Phyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2009 06:29 MyLostTemple wrote:On February 28 2009 14:36 Phyre wrote:
@Tasteless: That's cool and all that you were able to do so much whilst making use of a variety of drugs, but as I believe you already mentioned, I don't think most people are capable of doing the same. You're probably more the lucky/stronger minority than the majority.
You do bring up an interesting point though about not living life with a seatbelt, helmet, etc. This may be another reason I feel the way I do, but it's my nature to be as safe as possible within reason. I'm not what you'd call an adventurous person, I seek predictability and consistency in most aspects of life. So in terms of approaching life with protection, other may be wearing a seatbelt or a helmet but I'm bringing a tank. At least in mindset, not always in practice. Might explain a few things. For the record though, please don't confuse being safe with living a sheltered life.
Just out of curiosity though, do you wear seatbelts then?
yeah i always wear a seatbelt, but i think you missed the point of my argument, i'll admit my analogy wasn't great though. I wear a seatbelt because if i crash in a car i wont flight through the windshield. i don't get some kind of rush or release by not wearing a seatbelt, i don't gain new forms of experience that are beneficial to me in some way either. The only point in physicians post i completely disagreed with was his claim that the recreational use of drugs was over-hyped. my usage of drugs, particularly psychedelics, has drastically improved my views on art, philosophy, love, friendship, my role in the world and my views on nature. obviously upers and downers can also give people good experiences or no one would do them but people can also be grossly irresponsible with things like this which is why they aren't for everyone. it sounds like your just a person who behaves very conservatively and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. however you shouldn't hate other people for the life choices they make, they're just people. if you really hate drugs like weed that much then you should probably have the same problem with anti-depressants and bi-polar medication. Just to be clear, I don't believe I said anywhere that I hate the people that do drugs. I may pity some, be disappointed at others, or even just be indifferent in some cases. I take that on the case to case basis. I believe my stance was that I hate what it does to people, the mindset and culture that follows it, etc. I've been giving it a fair amount of thought though after reading through this thread a few times and I'm finding that perhaps I was too much of an... extremist perhaps? I'm rethinking a lot of things. I'm standing firm that I'll never try the stuff, but yeah, re evaluating a lot. Why should I have a problem with anti-depressants and bi-polar medication if I hate weed though? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. One other thing I was thinking about, where do you guys stand on cigarettes? Most of the drug users here have been using weed as an example citing that it's not harmful and thus not that bad. However, cigs from what I understand are 100% linked to lung cancer and a number of awful ailments as well as being horrifically addictive. Seems all around pretty bad. Do you condone it's use in the same way?
the point i was making was that anti-depressants and bi-polar meds are drugs just like pot. in fact many people have negative side effects from anti-depressants and bi-polar meds. why are you generalizing "bad drugs" to be everything that's illegal besides alcohol. many prescription meds (like xanix or adderall) can have great utility but also can lead to dependence and abuse.
i'm really curious exactly how your friends are behaving on weed and alcohol because it's quite possible your friends specifically are just really annoying or retarded when they do this stuff. maybe they're completely irresponsible or juvenile.
what is this "drug culture" you're talking about? you've thrown that word around like there's some overarching scene that drug users categorically fit into; and further more, what "mind set" are you talking about? by "mind set" do you mean the attitude drug users have towards their lives and drug use? because if that's what you're talking about i don't think there's some super category that all these people fit into. It just sounds like you're stero-typing things. like i said; I'm under the impression this has more to do with your friends and how they behave on alcohol and pot, yet you seem to be shifting the dislike onto the drugs themselves.
Do your friends pressure people who can't handle much into getting way to drunk and becoming sick? do they sit around drawing dicks on people who pass out? are they the kind of guys who try to get girls way toooo drunk and rape them? Do they use alcohol or weed as some mechanism to abuse power over other people? I can think of a few assholes in college who did stuff like that but at the end of the day those kind of people are just the wrong people to hang out with. Is that the culture you're talking about? If it is then i'm not surprised you would jump to the conclusion of hating drugs. If this isn't the type of behavior you're seeing, what is it exactly that they're doing that upsets you to this degree??
On the subject of cigs; obviously they can lead to lung cancer and are addictive, actually much more addictive than many other drugs. I have smoked for several years, although very VERY lightly. sometimes i don't smoke for an entire month. People who smoke know exactly what they're doing to their bodies, it's a life style choice. it doesn't mean it's bad, it can just be very unhealthy but it's only 'all around bad' if you are judging based on physical health.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
these threads all turn out the same, so i really just skimmed the ten page thread - apologies, this is probably a redundant post.
however, i must point out how obviously senseless and narrow-minded it is to judge your friends based on drug usage. here are people who by definition you enjoy the company of, who you have found some value in through personal experience and are presumably the same now, except with the fact that they do drugs. really, people you trust. on the other hand, you have zero experience with drugs beyond what's been force-fed to you. true, they are NOT to be taken without regard for consequence and many are indeed simply stupid, but this does not mean that everything you have only read about is precise.
do you see where i'm going with this? let your friends influence your opinion on drugs, not the other way around. i don't mean 100% one way or another, just find a balance.
my view on drugs is that lsd/weed/shrooms are all around the same 'level' as alcohol, the choices being personal preference and cost. cigarettes are super frustrating but i still have one very occasionally, they're just really really nice sometimes.
also, please be careful with being 'disappointed' in or having 'pity' for otherwise normal people who enjoy recreational drugs, because it is a grave injustice and insult to be judged by someone who knows so little. it is absolutely fine to be clean, no big deal, but sitting on a little pedestal and saying things such as 'i will never try drugs' makes you very dangerously sheltered. there is a reason they are so popular, and while that is never a strong argument, you cannot go the other way and assume these people are simply weak and flawed to 'fall' to drugs.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 17 2009 23:51 naventus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 20:34 HamerD wrote:
you need to realise that you can change your outlook on drugs, and your position. Drugs are just escapism. So are video games. There's no difference. Repeatedly taking drugs and repeatedly playing games for long stretches of time are virtually identical as addictions, drugs just go a step further, but that's just what the person is doing to themselves.
I think this is true. Fundamentally, a lot of the entertainment we seek are just forms of escapism. One thing that drugs might do better than video games is bring together a group of friends, since it's often a social activity (as opposed to online multiplayer or w/e). But as such, I don't really see it as something to be glorified or defended. My experience with drug users, and especially potsmokers, is that they get super butthurt and defensive (like FakeSteve) when anyone questions the rationale behind drug use. The fact is that they are just as much guilty of having a prejudiced/biased view. I can only imagine people getting so worked up about something that is really crucial to their lives - and if defending pot use is one of them, then perhaps pot is a bigger part of who you are than you have intended it to be.
you are making really wierd conclusions, based on the things i actually say
i care more about helping kids grow up than whether or not anyone smokes pot or what they think about it, which i really don't give a shit about
you are skimming my posts, noting a tone of dissent, and throwing me into the same classification as everyone else who doesn't share your skewed views on casual drug use
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Norway28501 Posts
some drugs are bad some are good some people can take drugs and do fine others get totally consumed by them
generalizing drugs or drug-users is very unwise..
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On February 17 2009 12:55 Phyre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 12:48 Luddite wrote:
if you've never tried it, you really can't judge since you have no idea what it's like. Yeah, I get that a lot. It's like telling me to find religion and saying "How can you judge until you've tried it?" You don't always need to have experienced something to disagree with it strongly. I got similar arguments when I said fraternities were trash. "You were never in a frat, you wouldn't understand" and stuff like that.
Because of my fraternity, I do more charity work in a week, than you've done in your life, I guarantee this.
PS I'm high as fuck
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On March 02 2009 15:41 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2009 14:19 Phyre wrote:On March 01 2009 06:29 MyLostTemple wrote:On February 28 2009 14:36 Phyre wrote:
@Tasteless: That's cool and all that you were able to do so much whilst making use of a variety of drugs, but as I believe you already mentioned, I don't think most people are capable of doing the same. You're probably more the lucky/stronger minority than the majority.
You do bring up an interesting point though about not living life with a seatbelt, helmet, etc. This may be another reason I feel the way I do, but it's my nature to be as safe as possible within reason. I'm not what you'd call an adventurous person, I seek predictability and consistency in most aspects of life. So in terms of approaching life with protection, other may be wearing a seatbelt or a helmet but I'm bringing a tank. At least in mindset, not always in practice. Might explain a few things. For the record though, please don't confuse being safe with living a sheltered life.
Just out of curiosity though, do you wear seatbelts then?
yeah i always wear a seatbelt, but i think you missed the point of my argument, i'll admit my analogy wasn't great though. I wear a seatbelt because if i crash in a car i wont flight through the windshield. i don't get some kind of rush or release by not wearing a seatbelt, i don't gain new forms of experience that are beneficial to me in some way either. The only point in physicians post i completely disagreed with was his claim that the recreational use of drugs was over-hyped. my usage of drugs, particularly psychedelics, has drastically improved my views on art, philosophy, love, friendship, my role in the world and my views on nature. obviously upers and downers can also give people good experiences or no one would do them but people can also be grossly irresponsible with things like this which is why they aren't for everyone. it sounds like your just a person who behaves very conservatively and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. however you shouldn't hate other people for the life choices they make, they're just people. if you really hate drugs like weed that much then you should probably have the same problem with anti-depressants and bi-polar medication. Just to be clear, I don't believe I said anywhere that I hate the people that do drugs. I may pity some, be disappointed at others, or even just be indifferent in some cases. I take that on the case to case basis. I believe my stance was that I hate what it does to people, the mindset and culture that follows it, etc. I've been giving it a fair amount of thought though after reading through this thread a few times and I'm finding that perhaps I was too much of an... extremist perhaps? I'm rethinking a lot of things. I'm standing firm that I'll never try the stuff, but yeah, re evaluating a lot. Why should I have a problem with anti-depressants and bi-polar medication if I hate weed though? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. One other thing I was thinking about, where do you guys stand on cigarettes? Most of the drug users here have been using weed as an example citing that it's not harmful and thus not that bad. However, cigs from what I understand are 100% linked to lung cancer and a number of awful ailments as well as being horrifically addictive. Seems all around pretty bad. Do you condone it's use in the same way? the point i was making was that anti-depressants and bi-polar meds are drugs just like pot. in fact many people have negative side effects from anti-depressants and bi-polar meds. why are you generalizing "bad drugs" to be everything that's illegal besides alcohol. many prescription meds (like xanix or adderall) can have great utility but also can lead to dependence and abuse. i'm really curious exactly how your friends are behaving on weed and alcohol because it's quite possible your friends specifically are just really annoying or retarded when they do this stuff. maybe they're completely irresponsible or juvenile. what is this "drug culture" you're talking about? you've thrown that word around like there's some overarching scene that drug users categorically fit into; and further more, what "mind set" are you talking about? by "mind set" do you mean the attitude drug users have towards their lives and drug use? because if that's what you're talking about i don't think there's some super category that all these people fit into. It just sounds like you're stero-typing things. like i said; I'm under the impression this has more to do with your friends and how they behave on alcohol and pot, yet you seem to be shifting the dislike onto the drugs themselves. Do your friends pressure people who can't handle much into getting way to drunk and becoming sick? do they sit around drawing dicks on people who pass out? are they the kind of guys who try to get girls way toooo drunk and rape them? Do they use alcohol or weed as some mechanism to abuse power over other people? I can think of a few assholes in college who did stuff like that but at the end of the day those kind of people are just the wrong people to hang out with. Is that the culture you're talking about? If it is then i'm not surprised you would jump to the conclusion of hating drugs. If this isn't the type of behavior you're seeing, what is it exactly that they're doing that upsets you to this degree?? On the subject of cigs; obviously they can lead to lung cancer and are addictive, actually much more addictive than many other drugs. I have smoked for several years, although very VERY lightly. sometimes i don't smoke for an entire month. People who smoke know exactly what they're doing to their bodies, it's a life style choice. it doesn't mean it's bad, it can just be very unhealthy but it's only 'all around bad' if you are judging based on physical health.
I don't take issue with anti-depressants and bi-polar meds when they are used for medicinal purposes to help someone that needs it to function. In terms of effect, they may be very similar to something like weed or any number of other recreational drugs. However, the difference to me is in their use. There have been many studies (or so I'm told) that say weed can have some great benefits for people with certain medical conditions (I think someone said cancer of some sort) and I'm all for that. It crosses the line from altering your brain chemistry because you felt like it to needing it simply not to be in pain all the time or to function at a somewhat normal capacity. As you mentioned, some of these medicines have their downfalls but I assume that the ailment they are trying to deal with outweighs these hence the continued use.
The "drug culture" and "mindset" that I refer to are the recurring characteristics I tend to see in a lot of drug users. The stereotype perhaps. However, I don't believe I said anywhere that all drug users subscribe to the "drug culture and mindset" that I mentioned. Some do, some don't. I dislike the ones that do. For example, I hate the "frat boy culture/mindset" which I suppose could roughly translate to the "frat boy stereotype". Doesn't mean I hate all fraternity members or that all fraternity members fit the stereotype. My father is/was a member.
As for my friends, they're pretty benign when they're high. More so than when they are drunk. They basically just sit around in a room and laugh at anything. They most definitely don't do any of what you mentioned. I don't think they are a danger to anyone besides maybe themselves, not even much of that depending on who you trust with regards to health risks. It's hard to pin down exactly what it is that makes me dislike them when they do this. It was brought up earlier, but perhaps it has something to do with feeling left out. I have no intention of doing drugs, most of them respect that and don't push it on me, but in the end we don't hang out as much as we used to. It bothers me that they seemed to only really be having fun when they are drunk or high and it wasn't always like that. I even tried hanging out in the room while they were getting high and it just wasn't the same for obvious reasons. Conversations just aren't as interesting and if they are, it's for entirely different reasons. So perhaps it's just I feel left out. Sort of like when a few friends of mine joined fraternities and stopped hanging out with non-greek life people, the weed smokers and drinkers just split off into their own exclusive groups. Not sure, but I'll give it more thought. Upon initial reflection, I feel that I may be acting somewhat selfishly. Like I said though, I'm giving it more thought and seeing where it leads me. No conclusions thus far.
On cigs, that's what I meant when I said "all around bad". I was strictly referring to health stuff. I was just curious to see if people still felt the same about a drug that has well documented, known severe health risks since most people kept making statements about weed's safeness to, I assume, put drugs in a nicer light. Never thought to ask about that perspective so I find it interesting to read the different viewpoints.
@Intrigue: Just as I may sound condescending towards drug users, I find that they tend to be similarly condescending. Even before I voice my opinion in some cases. Things like "you have zero experience with drugs beyond what's been force-fed to you" and "it is a grave injustice and insult to be judged by someone who knows so little" I find to be somewhat condescending myself. Something that many drug users seem to assume when confronting someone that is against their hobby is assume that everything we know about drugs is "force fed" or government propaganda of some sort. Totally dismissing the possibility that they have done a fair amount of reading from both sides. Claims that non-drug users are naive and "know so little" generally aren't too far behind. Somehow, I have a feeling you didn't intend this to be offensive though so I try not to take it as such. Thanks for your input.
@PanN: I did a fair amount of volunteer teaching of my own for quite awhile (years), so I'd be interested to see your numbers and hear about what you did. I know there has been a fair amount of assuming going on, myself included, but you seem quite foolish to make such a direct and specific accusation when you know so little about myself. That said, the world can always use more volunteer work so kudos to you.
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Actually, I think I've come to something of a conclusion. It's not 100% conclusive since I don't really fully understand it all but it's something I think I can live with.
The more I think about things the more I find I hate things. Lots of things. At least with regards to drugs, I'm finding too many question marks in my own reasoning, places where I can't explain why I feel the way I do. I've always valued the ability to be logical, and feeling something for no reason and worse so, acting on it isn't logical. So it only makes sense to resolve to not be so judgmental and hate without good reasoning. At least enough reasoning to explain one's emotions to a satisfactory level which I have thus far failed to do with regards to the drugs that don't have obvious reasons to hate such as simply being deadly.
The next time I feel the disgust and hatred I've mentioned before, I intend to really give it a thorough analysis to better understand my reasons. Hopefully to come to a better, more complete, conclusion.
Still not taking drugs, ever.  Thanks TL, gave me a lot to think about.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
well drugs are obviously not for you, so avoid them. i don't think you'd enjoy what they do to you
the condescending attitude of people on the other side of the coin is just a natural reaction to statements like the ones in your OP. check this out:
"i hate starcraft. i've never played it, but i've seen my friends play it, and they say stupid shit like 'gee gee'. I will never play starcraft and tend to look down on those who do'
seems kind of silly, doesn't it? on top of that, because of the subject matter we're talking about here, you are basically calling casual drug users on TL degenerate scum. it's really not fair to assume things about you either, but this really is exactly what programs like D.A.R.E. promote in people (as an example, tbh i don't think anyone took dare seriously), so that's where it comes from. it simply isn't a reasonable conclusion to come to if everything is based on your own experiences, so 95% of the people who are so firmly anti-drug really just don't know what they're talking about, or have really boring friends. the other 5% are people who have lost friends to heroin ODs or come from a family of crack dealers, shady stuff that can and should give you a negative viewpoint on the subject
just boils down to what i said initially, it's unhealthy to meet things you don't understand with contempt. whether i smoke pot or you smoke pot has nothing to do with it. i'd never jump out of a fucking airplane with a rag in a backpack, but i'm not going to condemn skydivers
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Also, after reading your further posts I think a lot of your views on pot are pretty justified given your circumstances. I think you'd have an entirely different opinion if you were hanging out with the people i hung out with back home - people who get up and have fun, write music, play video games, or just sit around and shoot the shit when they smoke weed. nobody wants to just sit on the couch and laugh when we were hanging out
i guess i mean that while pot does enable you to enjoy doing nothing, you have to be sensible enough to know that doing something is far more fun, just like it is when you're sober
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On March 03 2009 14:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
the condescending attitude of people on the other side of the coin is just a natural reaction to statements like the ones in your OP. check this out:
"i hate starcraft. i've never played it, but i've seen my friends play it, and they say stupid shit like 'gee gee'. I will never play starcraft and tend to look down on those who do'
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=87968¤tpage=4#63
i was hoping to get more of a response =/
oh well
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Valhalla18444 Posts
hahaha i missed that
its a little extreme though
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On March 03 2009 14:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
well drugs are obviously not for you, so avoid them. i don't think you'd enjoy what they do to you
the condescending attitude of people on the other side of the coin is just a natural reaction to statements like the ones in your OP. check this out:
"i hate starcraft. i've never played it, but i've seen my friends play it, and they say stupid shit like 'gee gee'. I will never play starcraft and tend to look down on those who do'
seems kind of silly, doesn't it? on top of that, because of the subject matter we're talking about here, you are basically calling casual drug users on TL degenerate scum. it's really not fair to assume things about you either, but this really is exactly what programs like D.A.R.E. promote in people (as an example, tbh i don't think anyone took dare seriously), so that's where it comes from. it simply isn't a reasonable conclusion to come to if everything is based on your own experiences, so 95% of the people who are so firmly anti-drug really just don't know what they're talking about, or have really boring friends. the other 5% are people who have lost friends to heroin ODs or come from a family of crack dealers, shady stuff that can and should give you a negative viewpoint on the subject
just boils down to what i said initially, it's unhealthy to meet things you don't understand with contempt. whether i smoke pot or you smoke pot has nothing to do with it. i'd never jump out of a fucking airplane with a rag in a backpack, but i'm not going to condemn skydivers
-sigh- people that use rugs are so condescending.  After all that had been said it is sad to say my opinion of TLers that use drugs is just not to high anymore. It sucks but it is what it is.
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The effect of drugs on people only reflects their real nature. Drugs cant turn you into someone you're not (contrary to popular opinion) they just lower your inhibitions and stimulate you to action. No, I'm not advocating the use of drugs, I'm just saying, what a person does while under the effect still depends on the person. I've tried LSD once, admittedly a long time ago, and frequently smoke weed. I don't think I've changed at all, and neither do my friends, most of whom don't partake in drug use. The way I see it, its just a way to derive more fun and enjoyment from your daily life 
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United States22883 Posts
While I have no issue with decriminalizing weed (I don't smoke), here's an issue for those who do smoke to think about. People who mass produce weed aren't druggies, they're capitalists and since there is no FDA standard, they're using a lot of chemicals to increase their profits that you're probably not aware of. There's LOTS of pesticides (especially with hydroponics), growth agents, things to artificially increase THC levels, etc. and you're smoking it.
When the studies are done, they're using medical marijuana which has guidelines for how it has to be produced, but with stuff on the street, you're ingesting a lot of unknown chemicals that the research doesn't account for. Just be aware of that.
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i smoke weed about two or three times a school week but, that is my limit and i refuse to break it. but i dont like to be judged just because i like to smoke, and have NEVER been in trouble with the law, and NEVER been caught by family, *knocks on wood* but you cant judge people for what they like to do if its not out of control.
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EPT
