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On February 28 2009 10:02 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2009 09:02 Hypnosis wrote:
Anyone who has a really strong "dislike" or hatred towards what others are doing has some major character flaws. Why does it bother you so much that OTHER people do drugs? It is an unfounded argument and it shows that you lack self confidence because you are worried about other people. And im 100% sure that you cannot judge drugs like weed and alcohol if you have never tried them. Very ignorant blog.1/5 It's natural and normal to judge and be interested in your fellow man's behaviours, not a character flaw. I believe it's intrinsic to every human being to feel a sense of duty to help their fellow man. Whether they're actually helping, or they just think they are, is irrelevant... I'm just trying to say it's normal to be concerned with the behaviour of the people who surround you. You can judge alcohol and any other drug if you've never tried it before. That's a really silly thing to say. No one is saying these drugs won't make you feel good. They're judging whether or not that's such a great thing.
Yes but to be utterly opposed to something without fully investigating why people do drugs and without doing them yourself is just ignorant. It is obviously an ideal STRONGLY pushed into phyre by his parents or maybe he just never was part of the party scene in college/high school and never got accustomed to drinking/smoking weed and whatever else. I was not really into the big party scene but I have done my fair share of drinking and smoking and I can tell you it is not that bad if you balance it with responsibility. Sometimes if you are not a part of something you lean towards hating it. It easy to say you hate something but harder to say you really like it. If you haven't tried it then you clearly do not have a basis. And just from "seeing other people" do drugs (which i doubt you have actually experienced first hand from what I read. By first hand i mean you have been to lots of parties with drugs users, friends who do drugs and do drugs yourself.) you can't have a truly strong basis. Have people in your life ACTUALLY ruined their lives from drugs?? If not your argument is unfounded as I said before.
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a good counter post physician =]
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On February 28 2009 12:52 Hypnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2009 10:02 Chef wrote:On February 28 2009 09:02 Hypnosis wrote:
Anyone who has a really strong "dislike" or hatred towards what others are doing has some major character flaws. Why does it bother you so much that OTHER people do drugs? It is an unfounded argument and it shows that you lack self confidence because you are worried about other people. And im 100% sure that you cannot judge drugs like weed and alcohol if you have never tried them. Very ignorant blog.1/5 It's natural and normal to judge and be interested in your fellow man's behaviours, not a character flaw. I believe it's intrinsic to every human being to feel a sense of duty to help their fellow man. Whether they're actually helping, or they just think they are, is irrelevant... I'm just trying to say it's normal to be concerned with the behaviour of the people who surround you. You can judge alcohol and any other drug if you've never tried it before. That's a really silly thing to say. No one is saying these drugs won't make you feel good. They're judging whether or not that's such a great thing. Yes but to be utterly opposed to something without fully investigating why people do drugs and without doing them yourself is just ignorant. It is obviously an ideal STRONGLY pushed into phyre by his parents or maybe he just never was part of the party scene in college/high school and never got accustomed to drinking/smoking weed and whatever else. I was not really into the big party scene but I have done my fair share of drinking and smoking and I can tell you it is not that bad if you balance it with responsibility. Sometimes if you are not a part of something you lean towards hating it. It easy to say you hate something but harder to say you really like it. If you haven't tried it then you clearly do not have a basis. And just from "seeing other people" do drugs (which i doubt you have actually experienced first hand from what I read. By first hand i mean you have been to lots of parties with drugs users, friends who do drugs and do drugs yourself.) you can't have a truly strong basis. Have people in your life ACTUALLY ruined their lives from drugs?? If not your argument is unfounded as I said before.
tl;dr but this right here gots me LMAO!
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
hey good post physician. i actually agree with a lot of the stuff you said although not all of it, at least not philosophically. i have definitely crossed paths with a lot of fuckups who are either completely irresponsible or biologically prone to fuck themselves over and it really is a depressing thing. judging from my own experience less than 1 out of every 4 people are actually responsible, biologically sound and/or emotionally stable enough to deal with the ups and downs of anything past weed and alcohol; but then again there are tons of people who can't even handle themselves on alcohol alone. the bottom line is that drugs are absolutely not for everyone, but not inherently evil either.
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On February 28 2009 12:52 Hypnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2009 10:02 Chef wrote:On February 28 2009 09:02 Hypnosis wrote:
Anyone who has a really strong "dislike" or hatred towards what others are doing has some major character flaws. Why does it bother you so much that OTHER people do drugs? It is an unfounded argument and it shows that you lack self confidence because you are worried about other people. And im 100% sure that you cannot judge drugs like weed and alcohol if you have never tried them. Very ignorant blog.1/5 It's natural and normal to judge and be interested in your fellow man's behaviours, not a character flaw. I believe it's intrinsic to every human being to feel a sense of duty to help their fellow man. Whether they're actually helping, or they just think they are, is irrelevant... I'm just trying to say it's normal to be concerned with the behaviour of the people who surround you. You can judge alcohol and any other drug if you've never tried it before. That's a really silly thing to say. No one is saying these drugs won't make you feel good. They're judging whether or not that's such a great thing. Yes but to be utterly opposed to something without fully investigating why people do drugs and without doing them yourself is just ignorant. It is obviously an ideal STRONGLY pushed into phyre by his parents or maybe he just never was part of the party scene in college/high school and never got accustomed to drinking/smoking weed and whatever else. I was not really into the big party scene but I have done my fair share of drinking and smoking and I can tell you it is not that bad if you balance it with responsibility. Sometimes if you are not a part of something you lean towards hating it. It easy to say you hate something but harder to say you really like it. If you haven't tried it then you clearly do not have a basis. And just from "seeing other people" do drugs (which i doubt you have actually experienced first hand from what I read. By first hand i mean you have been to lots of parties with drugs users, friends who do drugs and do drugs yourself.) you can't have a truly strong basis. Have people in your life ACTUALLY ruined their lives from drugs?? If not your argument is unfounded as I said before.
Something just doesn't sit right with me concerning this notion that I can't be opposed to something without trying it. I can be opposed to murder, stealing, rape, and any other number of things without trying it myself.
As for were my opinions on drugs come from, it certainly isn't from my parents. While they don't drink or do drugs they also never ever discouraged me from doing so. They trust my judgment with regards to things like these, perhaps because I have such a hard line stance on these things. I wasn't part of the party scene really although the few parties I've been to ended up being some of the wilder ones I've been told. I had some friends in college though that got high practically every day so I'd like to say I'm fairly familiar with at least weed and alcohol. Honestly though, I can't really tell you where this disdain for drugs comes from exactly.
People in my life that had their lives ruined by drugs? My roommate in college was generally considered a complete weirdo or downright retarded by most people that met him initially, albeit a likable weirdo. He lacked any form of common sense in the vast majority of cases (he microwaved a light bulb, in my microwave...). However, when he applied himself even a little bit he was a genius. The guy took tests while drunk and/or stoned with no studying aside from look over his notes the day before and somehow got A's. Obviously insane potential. However, his aspirations were nothing more than to earn just enough to smoke weed all the time and live in a crappy dump of an apartment. He dropped out of school and worked as a chimney sweep for his father's company. Felt very disappointed honestly, he was a great guy and clearly was very smart.
I found out many months later that his girlfriend cheated on him and dumped him in short order. Al of a sudden he wasn't happy with life anymore or something. Dropped drugs completely, went back to college and started kicking ass getting straight A's in everything.
So technically his life wasn't ruined by drugs, but I believe he was very close. Probably not entirely the drug's fault, it rarely is I believe, but I don't think anyone can discount the role of drugs in his brush with failure.
On February 28 2009 09:02 Hypnosis wrote:
Anyone who has a really strong "dislike" or hatred towards what others are doing has some major character flaws. Why does it bother you so much that OTHER people do drugs? It is an unfounded argument and it shows that you lack self confidence because you are worried about other people. And im 100% sure that you cannot judge drugs like weed and alcohol if you have never tried them. Very ignorant blog.1/5
Just no. I fail to see how I lack self confidence of all things just because I'm disgusted by other's use of drugs. Again, I feel I can judge just fine without actually indulging. If you were to make an argument at all, you could pick on judging other's in general and I might be more inclined to agree with you that it's not something you should do lightly or even make a habit of.
On February 28 2009 09:51 mog87 wrote:
You are a very naive person, drugs tend to mimic already existing chemicals in the body, no one ever died from smoking weed. While some drugs are worse than others, it is dumb so lump them all in together. Stop looking down on other people because they know how to have a little fun, in short dont be a lame judgmental prude.
Perhaps I am naive, but not horrifically uninformed. I'm no expert but I've done my fair share of reading on weed and I'm well aware of the near impossible chance of over dosing on it.
@Tasteless: That's cool and all that you were able to do so much whilst making use of a variety of drugs, but as I believe you already mentioned, I don't think most people are capable of doing the same. You're probably more the lucky/stronger minority than the majority.
You do bring up an interesting point though about not living life with a seatbelt, helmet, etc. This may be another reason I feel the way I do, but it's my nature to be as safe as possible within reason. I'm not what you'd call an adventurous person, I seek predictability and consistency in most aspects of life. So in terms of approaching life with protection, other may be wearing a seatbelt or a helmet but I'm bringing a tank. At least in mindset, not always in practice. Might explain a few things. For the record though, please don't confuse being safe with living a sheltered life.
Just out of curiosity though, do you wear seatbelts then?
@Physician: I think I agree most with what you've written, it does make a lot of sense. I'd say my present perception of my opinions are most heavily influenced by your post. Makes me feel like a lot of my hatred is perhaps misdirected.
Edit: Now you've got me thinking... given a drug that does no harm to the user and none to the society surrounding the user would I still be as strongly opposed? I want to say no, but I'm still thinking about it.
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United States22883 Posts
The issue with conflating murder and drug use is that they're of different moral varieties. Most drug use doesn't directly harm other people. It may do so indirectly through the dealers/suppliers or whatnot, but so does buying cell phones and tennis shoes. Most people that do X are only affecting themselves, whereas the crimes you mentioned all clearly have another victim involved.
I'm not explicitly supporting the harm principle because I do think there is some room for government intervention, especially when it comes to public health problems (look at opium did to China in the 19th century), but don't judge them in the same category of "wrong" as those other crimes.
It's also very obvious what the effects/consequences of those other actions are but it's not so obvious when it comes to drugs, so you need to get your information right which is extremely hard to do on the internet, and with stupid adults (any American in their 50s was probably blazing up in the 60s/70s, inclduing your parents) talking about gateway drugs, etc.
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On February 28 2009 11:48 Physician wrote:
This reply goes mainly to counter balance Tasteless post, who because of who he is, might have a greater influence on others than he might actually ever believe but it also goes to anyone else reading that might be pro-drug use or might have seen my first post as not anti-drug. I just have to be the obnoxious adult in this one even though I understand were his coming from.
There are several caveats no one is mentioning that I wish to add to the unsuspecting reader.
"dude don't be a wuz, experiment once everything!"
- some drugs will cause permanent damage and give you absolutely nothing for it. Sniff glue and your IQ will drop ten points forever after a few uses, your coordination and reaction time will be hurt for life.. and if your unlucky many years later a doctor will have to explain to you why you kidney function sucks or you now have a liver tumor..
"woo hooo had a great time for few hours at a rave and it really opened my mind but paid for it for years after!"
- some drugs cause no meaningful harm, but unless you are making them yourself or growing them yourself YOU WILL NEVER REALLY KNOW WHAT OTHER CRAP THEY COME WITH
drug makers in general don't give a hoots ass about minor contaminants that can be very harmful.. ...there is one that sometimes shows up in ecstasy and meth that will give you 100% chance of getting Parkinson later on in life (and early too).. etc..
Is it worth the risk?
why the phuck can't I function without my adderall? what twitch? oh that had it since I was young.
- many drugs have very different effects on the developing mind than on the already developed mind. Very little research has been done on the subject for obvious reasons and what little animal research has been done on the matter, in general drugs that affect the mind can be more harmful or the changes they can can cause tend to be less reversible on the developing minds than on the adult minds. Which do what and which are more dangerous? Do your own research! But not on yourself lol.. So if your mind if you are under 19 and you haven't tried drugs, stay clean for you own good, there is a whole life ahead to phuck yourself up lol..
- there is such a thing as an addictive personality, in fact there are a couple of genes already associated not only with addictive personality but also with specific drug addictions - which is why even if you are responsible and an adult you can end up ruining your life if you just "try" or "experiment" with drugs - in other words by the time you find out you probably had the wrong gene your screwed. From this perspective if you balance all the risks, on health and the legal ones that are sometimes just as important, you might as well do yourself a favor and avoid drug use of any kind. I include alcohol too here that happens to have a well proven and unfortunate genetic predisposition in some people, no matter how superior or disciplined they see themselves etc..
- then there is people whose mind is not in the best shape to start with, i.e. those battling depression, ocd, schizophrenia, anxiety disorders etc.. recreational drugs in some of these cases just end up with one dead dude or their conditons simply worsen until they end up in prison or in an institution. You say evolution at work? Wait till it's you brother or family member..
The choices we make as we grow up can have dramatic effects on us. One wrong choice and bye bye good life and sometimes you can even forget ever getting a chance to taste life properly. If you stay free of drugs, you can enjoy life fully while at the same time avoid many health and legal hazards associated with drugs that can only pull you down. We can't avoid everything that is bad and we can't live in fear about this or that BUT WE DEFINITIVELY AVOID stuff that we seen phuck up people over and over. Work in any ER and you will realize the other side drugs not many see. Its phucking sad to see young people die or end up with fried brains..
The "recreation" in recreational drugs in general is WAY over-valued and over-hyped. Many are outright unpleasant and some can only do their thing after habitual use. I haven't seen also no one even consider or add up the financial costs they carry. Save your money for better more meaningful things in life and you will be better off.
In other words the benefits of not using recreational drugs far outweighs the little benefits you might find in them.
You make a few good points here, though quite obvious. Sometimes the risk or damage involved in drug use definitely outweighs the benefits, and multiple lives have undoubtedly been ruined by irresponsible drug use.
I would just like to say that you seem to be overlooking certain effects of certain (psycho-active) drugs that range, I claim, beyond mere 'recreation'. Proper use of certain psycho-active drugs, taken, preferrably, under the supervision of more experienced trippers, may truly expand one's mind and thus greatly increase one's quality of life. I made a big post earlier in this thread where I argued for this.
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United States22883 Posts
I think Physician would say that even experienced trippers can't help you with your body's chemistry. Some people don't suffer long term problems, others do, EVEN if taken in a proper manner. This is mainly for the psychoactive stuff, not for weed.
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I hate people who murder others, but I've never killed anyone before...doesn't mean I can't judge. In the same way, I generally dislike people who do drugs, even if I've never tried them. Sure, the stuff makes you hella high, and it may be awesome, but as stated before in the thread the negatives outweigh the positives in a lot of cases and I don't feel that it's worth the risk to get caught up and take the risk.
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On March 01 2009 03:57 Jibba wrote:
I think Physician would say that even experienced trippers can't help you with your body's chemistry. Some people don't suffer long term problems, others do, EVEN if taken in a proper manner.
Well there's a lot of difference between drugs. I was talking about shrooms/LSD/ maybe ayahuasca. Shrooms are really safe, unless you're allergic or something. I guess the argument does apply to LSD to an extent, although it's a lot safer than MDMA/XTC/Coke etc, as far as the objection that it might contain unhealthy stuff it's not supposed to contain is concerned. If you're not getting it from a stranger, the odds are really small that there's something in it. Most LSD is just a piece of paper (that was soaked in liquid LSD), so there's no real reason for dealers to put shit in it that's not supposed to be in it, whereas with coke for example, it increases the quantity.
So as far as shrooms are concerned, the odds are usually really small that it's bad for your health, and the possible benefits such a trip may have (increasing your quality of life by changing your outlook on things - I talked about this in a previous post in this thread) can be quite great.
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As long as your responsible and level headed then there's no problem in doing (most) drugs. Weed can be smoked pretty much everyday and it won't have any long term effects, others such as LSD, MDMA, DMT, cocaine should be done less often but still should cause no problems for an individual of sound mind and body. Most of the people who go too far with it and let it ruin their lives would probably just end up doing the same thing with drink or something else if they had no access to drugs.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On February 28 2009 14:36 Phyre wrote:
@Tasteless: That's cool and all that you were able to do so much whilst making use of a variety of drugs, but as I believe you already mentioned, I don't think most people are capable of doing the same. You're probably more the lucky/stronger minority than the majority.
You do bring up an interesting point though about not living life with a seatbelt, helmet, etc. This may be another reason I feel the way I do, but it's my nature to be as safe as possible within reason. I'm not what you'd call an adventurous person, I seek predictability and consistency in most aspects of life. So in terms of approaching life with protection, other may be wearing a seatbelt or a helmet but I'm bringing a tank. At least in mindset, not always in practice. Might explain a few things. For the record though, please don't confuse being safe with living a sheltered life.
Just out of curiosity though, do you wear seatbelts then?
yeah i always wear a seatbelt, but i think you missed the point of my argument, i'll admit my analogy wasn't great though. I wear a seatbelt because if i crash in a car i wont flight through the windshield. i don't get some kind of rush or release by not wearing a seatbelt, i don't gain new forms of experience that are beneficial to me in some way either.
The only point in physicians post i completely disagreed with was his claim that the recreational use of drugs was over-hyped. my usage of drugs, particularly psychedelics, has drastically improved my views on art, philosophy, love, friendship, my role in the world and my views on nature. obviously upers and downers can also give people good experiences or no one would do them but people can also be grossly irresponsible with things like this which is why they aren't for everyone.
it sounds like your just a person who behaves very conservatively and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. however you shouldn't hate other people for the life choices they make, they're just people. if you really hate drugs like weed that much then you should probably have the same problem with anti-depressants and bi-polar medication.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 01 2009 06:29 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2009 14:36 Phyre wrote:
@Tasteless: That's cool and all that you were able to do so much whilst making use of a variety of drugs, but as I believe you already mentioned, I don't think most people are capable of doing the same. You're probably more the lucky/stronger minority than the majority.
You do bring up an interesting point though about not living life with a seatbelt, helmet, etc. This may be another reason I feel the way I do, but it's my nature to be as safe as possible within reason. I'm not what you'd call an adventurous person, I seek predictability and consistency in most aspects of life. So in terms of approaching life with protection, other may be wearing a seatbelt or a helmet but I'm bringing a tank. At least in mindset, not always in practice. Might explain a few things. For the record though, please don't confuse being safe with living a sheltered life.
Just out of curiosity though, do you wear seatbelts then?
yeah i always wear a seatbelt Liar!
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
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On March 01 2009 06:29 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2009 14:36 Phyre wrote:
@Tasteless: That's cool and all that you were able to do so much whilst making use of a variety of drugs, but as I believe you already mentioned, I don't think most people are capable of doing the same. You're probably more the lucky/stronger minority than the majority.
You do bring up an interesting point though about not living life with a seatbelt, helmet, etc. This may be another reason I feel the way I do, but it's my nature to be as safe as possible within reason. I'm not what you'd call an adventurous person, I seek predictability and consistency in most aspects of life. So in terms of approaching life with protection, other may be wearing a seatbelt or a helmet but I'm bringing a tank. At least in mindset, not always in practice. Might explain a few things. For the record though, please don't confuse being safe with living a sheltered life.
Just out of curiosity though, do you wear seatbelts then?
yeah i always wear a seatbelt, but i think you missed the point of my argument, i'll admit my analogy wasn't great though. I wear a seatbelt because if i crash in a car i wont flight through the windshield. i don't get some kind of rush or release by not wearing a seatbelt, i don't gain new forms of experience that are beneficial to me in some way either. The only point in physicians post i completely disagreed with was his claim that the recreational use of drugs was over-hyped. my usage of drugs, particularly psychedelics, has drastically improved my views on art, philosophy, love, friendship, my role in the world and my views on nature. obviously upers and downers can also give people good experiences or no one would do them but people can also be grossly irresponsible with things like this which is why they aren't for everyone. it sounds like your just a person who behaves very conservatively and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. however you shouldn't hate other people for the life choices they make, they're just people. if you really hate drugs like weed that much then you should probably have the same problem with anti-depressants and bi-polar medication.
Just to be clear, I don't believe I said anywhere that I hate the people that do drugs. I may pity some, be disappointed at others, or even just be indifferent in some cases. I take that on the case to case basis. I believe my stance was that I hate what it does to people, the mindset and culture that follows it, etc. I've been giving it a fair amount of thought though after reading through this thread a few times and I'm finding that perhaps I was too much of an... extremist perhaps? I'm rethinking a lot of things. I'm standing firm that I'll never try the stuff, but yeah, re evaluating a lot.
Why should I have a problem with anti-depressants and bi-polar medication if I hate weed though? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.
One other thing I was thinking about, where do you guys stand on cigarettes? Most of the drug users here have been using weed as an example citing that it's not harmful and thus not that bad. However, cigs from what I understand are 100% linked to lung cancer and a number of awful ailments as well as being horrifically addictive. Seems all around pretty bad. Do you condone it's use in the same way?
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Sorry Phyre i lost my train of thought, I was really high when i wrote those replies sorry.
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On March 01 2009 14:19 Phyre wrote:
One other thing I was thinking about, where do you guys stand on cigarettes? Most of the drug users here have been using weed as an example citing that it's not harmful and thus not that bad. However, cigs from what I understand are 100% linked to lung cancer and a number of awful ailments as well as being horrifically addictive. Seems all around pretty bad. Do you condone it's use in the same way?
The pros for cigs I can think of are:
1. Some people find them relaxing. If it helps you relax and think, great, but there are some heavy cons so you need to weigh the two.
2. It's a good social tool. Cig breaks are great for gathering with other smokers and having nice conversations. Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone, but I've heard a lot of previous smokers saying that they missed the social aspect. Another social reason is that it's cool in many parts of the world and can help you fit into social groups.
The cons:
1.Cigs are really bad for your health
2. Cigs cost a lot
3. Cigs are addictive
That's all I can think of but I've never smoked cigarettes. My opinion.
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United States22883 Posts
4. They make your clothes smell like shit
5. You become reliant on them to feel relaxed
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On March 01 2009 14:19 Phyre wrote:
One other thing I was thinking about, where do you guys stand on cigarettes? Most of the drug users here have been using weed as an example citing that it's not harmful and thus not that bad. However, cigs from what I understand are 100% linked to lung cancer and a number of awful ailments as well as being horrifically addictive. Seems all around pretty bad. Do you condone it's use in the same way?
I smoke weed but I don't smoke cigs. I don't think the statement that weed isn't harmful is accurate, but I do think it's less harmful than cigs. For me, the risk/benefit ratio with weed is good, with cigs it's not cause they don't offer a real benefit for me. I don't like how they taste and/or smell, so there's just no real satisfaction there, whereas weed makes me happy and chill out.
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On March 01 2009 06:40 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2009 06:29 MyLostTemple wrote:On February 28 2009 14:36 Phyre wrote:
@Tasteless: That's cool and all that you were able to do so much whilst making use of a variety of drugs, but as I believe you already mentioned, I don't think most people are capable of doing the same. You're probably more the lucky/stronger minority than the majority.
You do bring up an interesting point though about not living life with a seatbelt, helmet, etc. This may be another reason I feel the way I do, but it's my nature to be as safe as possible within reason. I'm not what you'd call an adventurous person, I seek predictability and consistency in most aspects of life. So in terms of approaching life with protection, other may be wearing a seatbelt or a helmet but I'm bringing a tank. At least in mindset, not always in practice. Might explain a few things. For the record though, please don't confuse being safe with living a sheltered life.
Just out of curiosity though, do you wear seatbelts then?
yeah i always wear a seatbelt Liar!
rofl how did i miss that
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