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On February 01 2009 06:05 Underwhelmed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 05:31 fight_or_flight wrote:On January 30 2009 19:00 TheFlashyOne wrote: its really really really strange to be a real Atheist. at least be an agnostic. I agree, in my mind its worse to be a real atheist than religious because at least most religious people will admit that everything they believe is based on faith, while an atheist believes that what he believes is based on logic. Do you believe that Santa Claus (In the form of a jolly old man who delivers all the good kids presents on Christmas eve) exists? I believe everything I hear until I rule it out with either intuition or logic, and even then I go back to it as new information or experiences come up. Whether that story is allegorical or symbolic is a very real possibility. By qualifying it to be literal (a real old man), you kind of push the logical side of things.
edit: btw, this is the opposite of the scientific method, which starts from axioms and builds up. The scientific method is very good for institutional uses and things involving definite experiments. However, it is not well suited to creating your personal reality because, essentially, it takes more than a lifetime to do it properly. It is not practical.
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On February 01 2009 06:00 CharlieMurphy wrote: I think the biggest difference between athieism and agnosticism is that athiest have BELIEFS that religion is bullshit and will probably try and 'convert' religious people to athiesm. Agnostics generally just don't give a fuck. So athieism is a pseudo-religion in itself.
Also some agnostics believe in a higher power but just don't know what to make of it or how to be in touch with it. Athiests generally and totally do not.
I don't believe in any higher being. I can't disprove their existance, but I have no reason to believe there is one. So while a higher being might exist, I don't really care about it.
However, a higher being in the form of the teaching of any religion does not exist. They are all invented by humans and each group thinks they are right. Since their beliefs contradict each other, only one religion can be right. But if there really were a right religion, why would anyone believe in something else?
However, that talking about higher being(s) aka god(s) should not be the main concern of any religion. Religion should be about love, peace, charity and harmony and not about who will go to hell for not believing and who will go to heaven for giving the pope money.
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Challenge him to a 1v1 @ Python, the winner's beliefs are deemed superior. It's the only way.
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On February 01 2009 06:14 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 06:00 CharlieMurphy wrote: I think the biggest difference between athieism and agnosticism is that athiest have BELIEFS that religion is bullshit and will probably try and 'convert' religious people to athiesm. Agnostics generally just don't give a fuck. So athieism is a pseudo-religion in itself.
Also some agnostics believe in a higher power but just don't know what to make of it or how to be in touch with it. Athiests generally and totally do not. I don't believe in any higher being. I can't disprove their existance, but I have no reason to believe there is one. So while a higher being might exist, I don't really care about it. However, a higher being in the form of the teaching of any religion does not exist. They are all invented by humans and each group thinks they are right. Since their beliefs contradict each other, only one religion can be right. But if there really were a right religion, why would anyone believe in something else? However, that talking about higher being(s) aka god(s) should not be the main concern of any religion. Religion should be about love, peace, charity and harmony and not about who will go to hell for not believing and who will go to heaven for giving the pope money. I can say right off the bat that many of your concepts do not hold up.
First of all, how do you know that all religions are invented by humans? Christians hold that the Bible was spoken by God through man. Considering that this is true, neither the Bible nor Christianity is invented by man.
But if there really were a right religion, why would anyone believe, in something else? I have no idea how to refute this logic as, no offense, it's not very good. Let's say that God DOES exist and Christianity IS the right religion. Why would you believe in no God? That would be the same as asking why people believe in a different religion. Because everyone else thinks that THEY are right.
religion should be about love, peace, charity and harmony Wouldn't this subscribe to your believe that religion is man-made, invented by man? This follows man's concept about how things should be, not the way God wants things to be.
not about who will go to hell for not believing and who will go to heaven for giving the pope money Talking to non-believers of God, I get this common misconception a lot. Every single time, I give this analogy:
Suppose that you, along with everyone in the world, were born with a disease. Because of this disease, you will eventually die but you don't realize it. Now, suppose I come along and offer you the medicine that will take away your disease. However, I say that you have to take the medicine everyday, otherwise the disease will come back and sicken you.
Now, there are two possibilities. The first is that you trust me, take the medicine, and you live. The other is that you call me a liar, say that you have no disease (you think you are fine), and you reject the medicine I offer.
However, along with that, you criticize me for choosing who lives and who dies. Does this sound reasonable at all to you?
This is the same thing as what Christians believe. Satan imparted his sinful nature in man (Adam and Eve) and because of this we need to die. Jesus has already died on the cross for our sins and has given us His blood as our "medicine". We were destined to go to Hell but God saves us from this. Many atheists see this as God condemning us to hell because they don't believe. How unfortunate it is that they don't realize that God wants to save us.
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On January 31 2009 20:34 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 18:26 benjammin wrote:On January 30 2009 21:39 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 30 2009 18:03 benjammin wrote: i think you should change the blog title to:
a pebble vs an ocean
isn't apathy one of the stages of being an atheist? no that's an agnostic the atheist at least opts to chose a side. no agnosticism claims that all these little squabbles over proof or disproof are over things that are unknown and always will be an apathetic is indifferent to what people believe my point was that all the good-natured logic in every atheist will eventually turn into apathy when they realize all the good-natured logic in the world isn't going to change anyone's mind but peoples minds can and do change
sure, but if they do it's typically by their own free will, not by combating zealotry with zealotry
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On February 01 2009 06:00 CharlieMurphy wrote: I think the biggest difference between athieism and agnosticism is that athiest have BELIEFS that religion is bullshit and will probably try and 'convert' religious people to athiesm. Agnostics generally just don't give a fuck. So athieism is a pseudo-religion in itself.
Also some agnostics believe in a higher power but just don't know what to make of it or how to be in touch with it. Athiests generally and totally do not.
Are you sure you clicked the link?
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On February 01 2009 06:09 fight_or_flight wrote: I believe everything I hear until I rule it out with either intuition or logic, and even then I go back to it as new information or experiences come up. Whether that story is allegorical or symbolic is a very real possibility. By qualifying it to be literal (a real old man), you kind of push the logical side of things. Bullshit, you don't default to a position of belief on everything. If I claimed that packs of rabid Giant Radioactive Space Hamsters terrorize the galaxy, you'd be immediately skeptical (and rightfully so) because there's a complete and total lack of evidence to support my claim. So once, again: Do you believe in Santa Claus?
edit: btw, this is the opposite of the scientific method, which starts from axioms and builds up. The scientific method is very good for institutional uses and things involving definite experiments. However, it is not well suited to creating your personal reality because, essentially, it takes more than a lifetime to do it properly. It is not practical.
I can only hope by "personal reality", you mean "beliefs", not objective reality.
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On February 01 2009 06:57 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 06:14 h3r1n6 wrote:On February 01 2009 06:00 CharlieMurphy wrote: I think the biggest difference between athieism and agnosticism is that athiest have BELIEFS that religion is bullshit and will probably try and 'convert' religious people to athiesm. Agnostics generally just don't give a fuck. So athieism is a pseudo-religion in itself.
Also some agnostics believe in a higher power but just don't know what to make of it or how to be in touch with it. Athiests generally and totally do not. I don't believe in any higher being. I can't disprove their existance, but I have no reason to believe there is one. So while a higher being might exist, I don't really care about it. However, a higher being in the form of the teaching of any religion does not exist. They are all invented by humans and each group thinks they are right. Since their beliefs contradict each other, only one religion can be right. But if there really were a right religion, why would anyone believe in something else? However, that talking about higher being(s) aka god(s) should not be the main concern of any religion. Religion should be about love, peace, charity and harmony and not about who will go to hell for not believing and who will go to heaven for giving the pope money. I can say right off the bat that many of your concepts do not hold up. First of all, how do you know that all religions are invented by humans? Christians hold that the Bible was spoken by God through man. Considering that this is true, neither the Bible nor Christianity is invented by man.
Because they are, because I say so. Yeah, great argument, I know, but the bible was written by humans. Wether it was from the influence of god or drugs, it is still written by human hand. If you insist on believing in god, that is your right, and I won't judge you for your believe. If you insist that christianity is right and everyone should believe in it, I despise you. Sounds ignorant comming from someone, who just called all religions of our world wrong, yes, but thats the way I see things. If I will be proven wrong, I will still go to my heaven with a beer volcano and a stripper factory, because my religion is awesome.
On February 01 2009 06:57 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +But if there really were a right religion, why would anyone believe, in something else? I have no idea how to refute this logic as, no offense, it's not very good. Let's say that God DOES exist and Christianity IS the right religion. Why would you believe in no God? That would be the same as asking why people believe in a different religion. Because everyone else thinks that THEY are right.
The only possibility is lack of information. You can make the wrong decision based on a lack of information, but wouldn't a all-mighty, all-knowing being make sure, we have everything we need to believe in him?
On February 01 2009 06:57 BanZu wrote:Wouldn't this subscribe to your believe that religion is man-made, invented by man? This follows man's concept about how things should be, not the way God wants things to be.
Yes, because religion is man-made, and should be something positive. Do you just imply, that your religion does not stand for good things? That god wants us to suffer?
On February 01 2009 06:57 BanZu wrote: This is the same thing as what Christians believe.
You believe in a made-up story, that was created to bring people on the right path thousands of years ago. I don't want to talk your religion bad, its basic message is a good one, that everyone should consider following. But its logic is as flawed as you see mine. God created the earth like 8000 years ago, and made Eve from Adams rib and so on.
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Yes, because religion is man-made, and should be something positive. Do you just imply, that your religion does not stand for good things? That god wants us to suffer? Saying that good things are not the focus does not imply that we do not stand up for those things, they just aren't the main focus. To assume something like that is faulty logic.
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You can make the wrong decision based on a lack of information, but wouldn't a all-mighty, all-knowing being make sure, we have everything we need to believe in him? This argument assumes that an omniscient being will also be benevolent.
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United States22883 Posts
I like where this is going.
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On February 01 2009 08:06 Underwhelmed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 06:09 fight_or_flight wrote: I believe everything I hear until I rule it out with either intuition or logic, and even then I go back to it as new information or experiences come up. Whether that story is allegorical or symbolic is a very real possibility. By qualifying it to be literal (a real old man), you kind of push the logical side of things. Bullshit, you don't default to a position of belief on everything. If I claimed that packs of rabid Giant Radioactive Space Hamsters terrorize the galaxy, you'd be immediately skeptical (and rightfully so) because there's a complete and total lack of evidence to support my claim. So once, again: Do you believe in Santa Claus? I'm talking about people who seem to genuinely believe what they are saying. Its obvious that you don't believe what you just said. Also, I didn't claim I wasn't skeptical, what I'm saying is that if I don't have a good reason to disbelieve it, then I tentatively accept it as true until something changes my mind in the future.
The very fact that there is someone who seems to genuinely believe in something, or a group of people, means that it is more likely to be true than not in the face of no opposing evidence. Why else would they spend time telling you about it?
Show nested quote + edit: btw, this is the opposite of the scientific method, which starts from axioms and builds up. The scientific method is very good for institutional uses and things involving definite experiments. However, it is not well suited to creating your personal reality because, essentially, it takes more than a lifetime to do it properly. It is not practical.
I can only hope by "personal reality", you mean "beliefs", not objective reality. No, I'm talking about truth, and truth is objective. However, due to our short lifespan, no one can really objectively know everything, so that makes our reality/beliefs of the world around us pretty subjective. Put another way, we can always become more objective. Anyone claiming they somehow know objective reality is probably much less objective than even the general population.
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On February 01 2009 10:18 fight_or_flight wrote: I'm talking about people who seem to genuinely believe what they are saying. Its obvious that you don't believe what you just said. Also, I didn't claim I wasn't skeptical, what I'm saying is that if I don't have a good reason to disbelieve it, then I tentatively accept it as true until something changes my mind in the future.
The very fact that there is someone who seems to genuinely believe in something, or a group of people, means that it is more likely to be true than not in the face of no opposing evidence. Why else would they spend time telling you about it? Sorry, normally I don't wade into these sort of discussions, but WHAT THE FUCK, that is some of the worst reasoning I have ever seen in my entire life. I sincerely hope that you don't mean what you just said.
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For some reason when I read this title the first thing that came to mind was a 3 way boxing match, tasteless vs jahovas witness vs kangaroo. I dont know why.
On topic somewhat -
Assuming the lack of a god is no different than assuming the existence of one. Neither of you can really argue your points in any sort of manner that goes beyond assumption, sorry.
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On February 01 2009 10:26 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 10:18 fight_or_flight wrote: I'm talking about people who seem to genuinely believe what they are saying. Its obvious that you don't believe what you just said. Also, I didn't claim I wasn't skeptical, what I'm saying is that if I don't have a good reason to disbelieve it, then I tentatively accept it as true until something changes my mind in the future.
The very fact that there is someone who seems to genuinely believe in something, or a group of people, means that it is more likely to be true than not in the face of no opposing evidence. Why else would they spend time telling you about it? Sorry, normally I don't wade into these sort of discussions, but WHAT THE FUCK, that is some of the worst reasoning I have ever seen in my entire life. I sincerely hope that you don't mean what you just said. The other option is to believe nothing until its "proven". However,
1) There are many things, deeply psychological, which we just assume to be true that we never think about.
2) It is obvious that everyone is so completely biased that it is better to not pretend that what you believe is based on truth, but rather, what you don't believe is in opposition to truth. Something false can seemingly be upheld by 1000 facts, but it only takes one fact to disprove 1000 lies.
edit: here is a good writeup of it + Show Spoiler +Truth Analysis
The process is based on two axioms:
1. truth is not subjective 2. truth never contradicts itself
Because truth is not subjective, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.
The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what’s true and what’s false. Here’s what I mean:
It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you’ve put together.
Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.
It is better to look for what’s wrong with a theory than what’s right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.
Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.
Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition—logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.
The process goes like this:
1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.
2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.
3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.
4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:
* explains all the facts * explains the facts better than any other theory * explains facts that previous theories could not * is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions * makes sense * feels intuitively correct
5) The theory is worth keeping if:
* it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation * you find correlation from other independent sources
6) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:
* check to see that it’s really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective * check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes * modify the theory to accomodate the challenge * come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one
This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It’s an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it’s incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.
The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation.
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On February 01 2009 09:50 Jibba wrote: I like where this is going. Me too.
On February 01 2009 09:36 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +Yes, because religion is man-made, and should be something positive. Do you just imply, that your religion does not stand for good things? That god wants us to suffer? Saying that good things are not the focus does not imply that we do not stand up for those things, they just aren't the main focus. To assume something like that is faulty logic. Right, the main focus is crusades and holy war. Sorry, had to go there
On February 01 2009 09:46 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +You can make the wrong decision based on a lack of information, but wouldn't a all-mighty, all-knowing being make sure, we have everything we need to believe in him? This argument assumes that an omniscient being will also be benevolent. Isn't the christian (and most other too) image of god a loving and forgiving god?
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Funny, I had a Jehovah's Witness visit me today. I stood there 93% naked, talking to these dudes, for about 45 minutes.
I would do it again.
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On February 01 2009 11:06 h3r1n6 wrote:Me too. Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 09:36 BanZu wrote:Yes, because religion is man-made, and should be something positive. Do you just imply, that your religion does not stand for good things? That god wants us to suffer? Saying that good things are not the focus does not imply that we do not stand up for those things, they just aren't the main focus. To assume something like that is faulty logic. Right, the main focus is crusades and holy war. Sorry, had to go there Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 09:46 koreasilver wrote:You can make the wrong decision based on a lack of information, but wouldn't a all-mighty, all-knowing being make sure, we have everything we need to believe in him? This argument assumes that an omniscient being will also be benevolent. Isn't the christian (and most other too) image of god a loving and forgiving god? The Abrahamic god, a.k.a. YHWH, Jehova, "God", etc., is a fellow that killed people and destroyed nations that harmed his people (the Jews), killed people that pissed him off (often Jews, lol), and often encouraged and supported violence. The Christians and their New Testament depicts him as a rather different god, and due to the widespread influence that Christianity has had upon the world for centuries, many people often will take the "loving and forgiving" Christian God as the model of a god.
There are many religions, alive or presently extinct, where their god or gods weren't some kind of absolute moral imma-love-u-man figure.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On February 01 2009 06:57 BanZu wrote: Suppose that you, along with everyone in the world, were born with a disease. Because of this disease, you will eventually die but you don't realize it. Now, suppose I come along and offer you the medicine that will take away your disease. However, I say that you have to take the medicine everyday, otherwise the disease will come back and sicken you.
Now, there are two possibilities. The first is that you trust me, take the medicine, and you live. The other is that you call me a liar, say that you have no disease (you think you are fine), and you reject the medicine I offer.
However, along with that, you criticize me for choosing who lives and who dies. Does this sound reasonable at all to you?
This is the same thing as what Christians believe. Satan imparted his sinful nature in man (Adam and Eve) and because of this we need to die. Jesus has already died on the cross for our sins and has given us His blood as our "medicine". We were destined to go to Hell but God saves us from this. Many atheists see this as God condemning us to hell because they don't believe. How unfortunate it is that they don't realize that God wants to save us.
jesus christ man, do you even see the logical flaw in this whole argument? you have no evidence that we need "medicine" to be fine. i know tons of athiests, myself and others, who live perfectly healthy lives. i donate to charity and try to be a good friend to people. everyone makes mistakes but i do my best to be a good person.
obviously religions preach about doing the right thing. unfortunately this has also been misinterpreted into war, genocide, racism and homophobia. it also has a strew of completely illogical bi-products like denying blood transfusions, believing in a virgin birth, telling women they can't get an education, masturbation is a sin, condoms can't be used in africa when aids is rampant, not eating pork, wearing special underpants and much much more.
there is absolutely no reason for religion to be part of a normal healthy persons life. why do we need to goto church to suck up to god and take his "medicine"? why is it necessary to jump through all these hoops when it's glaringly obvious that people can be just fine without it?
also, i feel that this blog is getting derailed, if you guys want me to make another religion thread, in the main section and moderate that, maybe one involving Christopher Hitchens instead of Richard Dawkins then i'm happy to do that.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
on the subject of athiests and agnostics i think there's some confusion on how we look at the two.
i'm an athiest only in the sense that i find no evidence of a god just like i find no evidence of unicorns. if we suddenly find a unicorn or unicorn bones somewhere i won't sit around saying "nope! i still don't buy it" just like many fundamentalists still don't believe in dinosaur bones. i will look at the new evidence and change my views. however, i'm not really an agnostic about unicorns, i pretty much believe they are made up, just like god. so because i opt to not believe in god just like the unicorns; i'm basically an atheist about them. while, just like an agnostic, i don't know where the universe came from, i find the whole idea of a divine creator way toooo far fetched to be something i'll consider until something convincing comes forth.
if you want to make it easier you can lump both athiests and agnostics into the category skeptics
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