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Clutch, you didn't even look at your data before posting it. I looked at the very first democrat after FDR and saw that it raised under him from '45 to '46.
I stopped looking there because if you haven't looked at your data, then I am not going to spend any time on it.
EDIT: But yes, in general overall trends you see it dropping until 1980 (whether the President was democrat or republican) when it raises slightly until roughly half way through Bill Clinton's presidency, when there is a tiny little drop during the economic bubble of the late '90s.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2008 06:56 Savio wrote: Clutch, you didn't even look at your data before posting it. I looked at the very first democrat after FDR and saw that it raised under him from '45 to '46.
I stopped looking there because if you haven't looked at your data, then I am not going to spend any time on it.
Look again. He meant over a term, not from year to year. It checks out if you look over the period of a term.
Before you dismiss someone you're debating with as an idiot, make sure you're interpreting the data the same way.
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I added my edit before your post
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On December 10 2008 06:56 Savio wrote: Clutch, you didn't even look at your data before posting it. I looked at the very first democrat after FDR and saw that it raised under him from '45 to '46.
I stopped looking there because if you haven't looked at your data, then I am not going to spend any time on it. I'm not looking at year-over-year data. If you are using that criterion, we can say that the debt/GDP ratio went up and down under almost every President. I'm sure you'd agree that it's much more useful to look at the full term in office of each President?
(Single year data are dependent on too many (sometimes random) variables... for example, the first year of a President's term often features an economy that depends more on his predecessor than on his own actions.)
Edit: TheYango beat me to it....
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United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2008 06:43 Clutch3 wrote: And to say that the balanced budget didn't have a lot to do with Clinton and Bob Rubin's decisions is being a little naive, imho. It also had to do with general economic strength (which, contrary to all Republican doctrine, actually gained momentum after Clinton cut income taxes on the poor and raised them on the top ~1%, over the objections of every Republican congressman). Correlation does not imply causality. The tax cuts/increases were actually a fairly minor reason for the economic boom of the mid-late 90s (which is much more attributable to the technological boom, and the growth of Asian markets which helped force prices down and curb inflation).
On December 10 2008 07:05 Savio wrote: I added my edit before your post
Then why does it say that your last edit was 7:04 and my post was at 7:03?
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The question is how serious is the problem:
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On December 10 2008 07:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2008 06:43 Clutch3 wrote: And to say that the balanced budget didn't have a lot to do with Clinton and Bob Rubin's decisions is being a little naive, imho. It also had to do with general economic strength (which, contrary to all Republican doctrine, actually gained momentum after Clinton cut income taxes on the poor and raised them on the top ~1%, over the objections of every Republican congressman). Correlation does not imply causality. The tax cuts were actually a fairly minor reason for the economic boom of the mid-late 90s (which is much more attributable to the technological boom, and the growth of Asian markets which helped force prices down and curb inflation). I agree, it's hard to deconvolve all the factors that led to the strong 1990's economy. My main point in saying this was to point out that the Republican idea that increased taxes on the upper income brackets will necessarily do significant damage to the economy is flawed (I've heard this argument so many times over the past eight years I feel like strangling someone). I don't think that tax cuts such as Clinton's will actually help the economy in and of themselves, but I think they are needed when we need to raise money for other priorities.
For example, at the moment, I'm hoping Obama is serious about a sizable stimulus package which uses deficit spending to build infrastructure and provide aid to states/localities... and in the long term I think going to Clinton-era top tax rates, and in raising cap gains tax rates at least to 25%, will be needed and prudent to get the deficit under control again.
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On December 10 2008 07:10 Savio wrote:The question is how serious is the problem:
I think you make a good point, in that the current federal debt is not maybe as bad as it looks on the surface. The thing that is frightening is when you look at the trends involved for the _next_ twenty years. Health care costs are pushing Medicare and Medicaid spending up rapidly, with no end in sight. The baby boomers are going to blow up the Social Security costs. And the standard of living for most Americans has stagnated for the past thirty years. Right now is when we should be saving money and reducing the debt, not ballooning it. And the "trust fund" is questionable, at best.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2008 07:14 Clutch3 wrote: I agree, it's hard to deconvolve all the factors that led to the strong 1990's economy. My main point in saying this was to point out that the Republican idea that increased taxes on the upper income brackets will necessarily do significant damage to the economy is flawed (I've heard this argument so many times over the past eight years I feel like strangling someone). I don't think that tax cuts such as Clinton's will actually help the economy in and of themselves, but I think they are needed when we need to raise money for other priorities. See, you missed the point. You can't TELL whether increased taxes on the upper income brackets would have done significant damage to the economy because such potential damage was mitigated by the strong growth factors also experienced at the time. Just because you find an episode where you think you can show supply-side economics as being faulty doesn't mean its entirely wrong.
If you're going to quote single bits of anomalous data that can be largely correlated to other factors, I can do the same. In 1963-1965 the top marginal tax rate was CUT from 91% to 70%. Taxes paid by the $1 million and greater tax bracket went from $326 million to $603 million. Taxes paid by the $100,000 to $1 million tax bracket went from $2.13 billion to $3.16 billion. Doesn't this say anything about how the tax rate has an effect on how much people earn?
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Health care is a mess and it may surprise you to know that I don't have the "conservative" view on it.
In fact I don't have any opinion of what to do. Its complicated.
I made a long post on it in the election thread.
Also, it will be interesting to see how the debt to GDP ratio looks after Obama's presidency. People may not be able to make the argument that Republicans are worse for that ratio anymore. All the signs indicate that GDP is falling and government expenditures are rising. He will have to raise some sick taxes to keep the ratio from rising. And judging from the start he has on forming his cabinet, he seems to want to govern moderately so I don't expect any super high taxes from him (as long as he wears the pants and not Nancy Pelosi).
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United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2008 07:31 Savio wrote: Also, it will be interesting to see how the debt to GDP ratio looks after Obama's presidency. People may not be able to make the argument that Republicans are worse for that ratio anymore. All the signs indicate that GDP is falling and government expenditures are rising. He will have to raise some sick taxes to keep the ratio from rising. And judging from the start he has on forming his cabinet, he seems to want to govern moderately so I don't expect any super high taxes from him.
He also has some semi-intelligent people who actually know something about economics, who probably realize that the middle of a recession of this scale is the LAST time you should be raising taxes.
The deficit as a number in and of itself is meaningless. Its only real value is as a measure of how much the government's spending is deterring private spending (lending money to the government means less money that can be lent in the private sector). If you're encouraging a tax policy that discourages growth of the private sector anyway, that's kind of self-defeating.
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That was very good. I was just gonna glance at it, but I read the whole thing anyway. Thanks for sharing.
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To give a full rebuttal to this, I'd have to give a duelling weblink... maybe to Robert Reich's blog or his website... or maybe Krugman (google them both, they are very smart) or maybe to another economist who's on board with a Keynesian-type stimulus.
But I'd just like to point out that it's very unlikely that Obama's going to raise any tax rates in the coming year, so this argument he's making may very well be built on sand. I'd also like to point out that skyrocketing unemployment means the U.S. economic engine is being underutilized (excess capacity), and while business is free to hire some of those people to take up the slack, it really doesn't seem like they are going to.
Therefore we have two choices... have government stay out of it, let millions of people continue to become unemployed and lose their homes, and hope that businesses eventually regain their confidence and pull us out (something that didn't happen the last time the economic signs looked like this in 1929). Or we can use government as a "spender of last resort" to get people employed, which will curb foreclosures and help to stabilize the housing market, and (if we spend the money wisely and choose priorities correctly) also improve long-term productivity by building infrastructure and spurring private sector growth in key emerging markets (e.g. alternative energy).
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The whole idea behind Marxism and the Soviet Union was that if the government made decisions instead of the market, it could invest more heavily in capital investments which would stimulate future economic growth so that they would win in the long run.
Its had its trial several times and it has never succeeded. The market makes better decisions than government does and leads to economic growth. The "New Deal" did nothing to pull us out of the great depression and may have made it worse.
EDIT: The theories abound but the evidence supports the market and condemns government control when it comes to economic growth.
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On December 10 2008 07:31 Savio wrote: Health care is a mess and it may surprise you to know that I don't have the "conservative" view on it.
In fact I don't have any opinion of what to do. Its complicated.
I made a long post on it in the election thread.
Also, it will be interesting to see how the debt to GDP ratio looks after Obama's presidency. People may not be able to make the argument that Republicans are worse for that ratio anymore. All the signs indicate that GDP is falling and government expenditures are rising. He will have to raise some sick taxes to keep the ratio from rising. And judging from the start he has on forming his cabinet, he seems to want to govern moderately so I don't expect any super high taxes from him (as long as he wears the pants and not Nancy Pelosi).
Yeah, I agree. He will probably leave office with a higher ratio, unless he has two terms and the economy performs some sort of insane miracle. I don't see him raising taxes for at least two years (the Bush ones sunset in 2010 if I am not mistaken).
It will definitely be interesting to see how much he listens to the Larry Summers disciples he's picked for his economic team. So far, I'm cautiously optimistic he'll go a little more progressive and throw out a stimulus on the order of what Paul Krugman's been saying (maybe 4% of GDP).
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On December 10 2008 07:50 Savio wrote: The whole idea behind Marxism and the Soviet Union was that if the government made decisions instead of the market, it could invest more heavily in capital investments which would stimulate future economic growth so that they would win in the long run.
Its had its trial several times and it has never succeeded. The market makes better decisions than government does and leads to economic growth. The "New Deal" did nothing to pull us out of the great depression and may have made it worse.
EDIT: The theories abound but the evidence supports the market and condemns government control when it comes to economic growth.
That's not the idea behind Marxism at all.
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The fact that news agencies are more likely to side with the liberal view on things has a lot more to do with how much lies the politicians spew and how outdated positions they take are than with bias. It's really baffling how many conservatives seem to think that if the numbers aren't 50/50 they are being discriminated and the other side is biased. I guess it's easier than rechecking your facts.
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No economic discussion regarding America would be complete without the dirty commie pinko pacifist noting:
If we didn't spend so much fucking money on the military, not only would we be in a lot better economic situation right now, but we could actually spend money on positive things and work forward rather than backward.
There. I feel much better now.
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On December 10 2008 07:50 Savio wrote: The "New Deal" did nothing to pull us out of the great depression and may have made it worse.
I don't have the economic credentials to stand up on my own on this, but paul krugman vigorously disagrees that the 'new deal' failed because of keynesian economics. he argues that FDR failed because he didn't go far enough. here's the article :
Franklin Delano Obama?
+ Show Spoiler +Franklin Delano Obama? By Paul Krugman
Suddenly, everything old is New Deal again. Reagan is out; F.D.R. is in. Still, how much guidance does the Roosevelt era really offer for today’s world?
The answer is, a lot. But Barack Obama should learn from F.D.R.’s failures as well as from his achievements: the truth is that the New Deal wasn’t as successful in the short run as it was in the long run. And the reason for F.D.R.’s limited short-run success, which almost undid his whole program, was the fact that his economic policies were too cautious.
About the New Deal’s long-run achievements: the institutions F.D.R. built have proved both durable and essential. Indeed, those institutions remain the bedrock of our nation’s economic stability. Imagine how much worse the financial crisis would be if the New Deal hadn’t insured most bank deposits. Imagine how insecure older Americans would feel right now if Republicans had managed to dismantle Social Security.
Can Mr. Obama achieve something comparable? Rahm Emanuel, Mr. Obama’s new chief of staff, has declared that “you don’t ever want a crisis to go to waste.” Progressives hope that the Obama administration, like the New Deal, will respond to the current economic and financial crisis by creating institutions, especially a universal health care system, that will change the shape of American society for generations to come.
But the new administration should try not to emulate a less successful aspect of the New Deal: its inadequate response to the Great Depression itself.
Now, there’s a whole intellectual industry, mainly operating out of right-wing think tanks, devoted to propagating the idea that F.D.R. actually made the Depression worse. So it’s important to know that most of what you hear along those lines is based on deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. The New Deal brought real relief to most Americans.
That said, F.D.R. did not, in fact, manage to engineer a full economic recovery during his first two terms. This failure is often cited as evidence against Keynesian economics, which says that increased public spending can get a stalled economy moving. But the definitive study of fiscal policy in the ’30s, by the M.I.T. economist E. Cary Brown, reached a very different conclusion: fiscal stimulus was unsuccessful “not because it does not work, but because it was not tried.”
This may seem hard to believe. The New Deal famously placed millions of Americans on the public payroll via the Works Progress Administration and the Civilian Conservation Corps. To this day we drive on W.P.A.-built roads and send our children to W.P.A.-built schools. Didn’t all these public works amount to a major fiscal stimulus?
Well, it wasn’t as major as you might think. The effects of federal public works spending were largely offset by other factors, notably a large tax increase, enacted by Herbert Hoover, whose full effects weren’t felt until his successor took office. Also, expansionary policy at the federal level was undercut by spending cuts and tax increases at the state and local level.
And F.D.R. wasn’t just reluctant to pursue an all-out fiscal expansion — he was eager to return to conservative budget principles. That eagerness almost destroyed his legacy. After winning a smashing election victory in 1936, the Roosevelt administration cut spending and raised taxes, precipitating an economic relapse that drove the unemployment rate back into double digits and led to a major defeat in the 1938 midterm elections.
What saved the economy, and the New Deal, was the enormous public works project known as World War II, which finally provided a fiscal stimulus adequate to the economy’s needs.
This history offers important lessons for the incoming administration.
The political lesson is that economic missteps can quickly undermine an electoral mandate. Democrats won big last week — but they won even bigger in 1936, only to see their gains evaporate after the recession of 1937-38. Americans don’t expect instant economic results from the incoming administration, but they do expect results, and Democrats’ euphoria will be short-lived if they don’t deliver an economic recovery.
The economic lesson is the importance of doing enough. F.D.R. thought he was being prudent by reining in his spending plans; in reality, he was taking big risks with the economy and with his legacy. My advice to the Obama people is to figure out how much help they think the economy needs, then add 50 percent. It’s much better, in a depressed economy, to err on the side of too much stimulus than on the side of too little.
In short, Mr. Obama’s chances of leading a new New Deal depend largely on whether his short-run economic plans are sufficiently bold. Progressives can only hope that he has the necessary audacity.
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