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nForever
United States9 Posts
Discuss! elections =)! | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5068 Posts
dont wanna outline everything but really, like the facebook group says, against gay marriage? then dont get one and shut the fuck up. and why on earth would you ever want to take rights away from tax paying american citizens bigots. | ||
ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
I think the government should get out of marriage entirely, and along those lines, they shouldn't prevent anyone from being married. I voted no on prop 8 in California and voted no on a similar state constitutional amendment in Georgia in 2004 (it passed there anyway). | ||
Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
Garriage. It's not "marriage" but it's just as special. In fact, its so special that it's not the same word as marriage! The couple are still entitled to all the nuts and bolts of marriage but adjusted appropriately so that its for the same sex. There's still that special union, still that special pact, still the same expectations of domestic abuse and divorce (though actually Garriage would probably have statistically lower of these). Now you won't have to worry about uncivilized and uneducated co-workers asking you who your "wife" is if you're married to your husband and vice versa. You won't have to hear all the religious cries about how it's crossing over into the holy matrimony of the pencil being put into the pencil sharpener and how putting the pencil tip on the eraser end is a sin. Sure it isn't what most homosexuals are after, but why do we have to change the definition for something that's existed for so many centuries and millenia. (note: not to be confused with "garage".) | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5068 Posts
but i mean realistically speaking, nothing changes with your "marriage" imo. It's like turning 18, frankly nothing happens to you biologically, but now the law decides you're old enough to do such and such and take responsibility for your actions, etc. I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred. By banning gay marriage, people are just taking some of the legal aspects and the happiness value of "marriage" away from people, but I feel as if a lot of the people against gay marriage are simply against homosexuality itself - banning gay marriage isn't going to stop two homosexuals from loving each other, so what's the deal? I find the defense of "protecting marriage" to be a farce and just a way to justify one's own bigotry and intolerance. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Railz
United States1449 Posts
Oh well. good ol Mormon values. MAN AND GIRL(S) | ||
Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too. check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with: sisters, grandmas... | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5068 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:40 NeoIllusions wrote: <3 Pano lets marry keke | ||
SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
LET THEM GET MARRIED. LET THEM SUFFER LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. /END CLICHE JOKE. | ||
kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:29 PanoRaMa wrote: I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred. Exactly. I can't see how marriage is so important. As you said, it's a simple title with lots of legal stuff tied to it. That's why I really don't understand 2 things: 1. Why do people like marrying, as it if was something necessary. 2. Why are people against gay marriage. I mean christ, it's just a freaking title, why so much bullshit about it? | ||
kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:41 Ki_Do wrote: i dont care, any1 can do anything im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too. check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with: sisters, grandmas... I fail to see your argument. So what if the child grows thinking that homosexuality is normal? Is that harmful at all? Normality has never been and will never be the standard for sanity. Nazism was normal in german society, but does that mean it was sane? | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5068 Posts
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stenole
Norway868 Posts
Does that help you do your homework? | ||
Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
but not by choosing but by being influenced any1 knows that even anatomically men were made for women, ppl choices aside | ||
CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
In opposition to gay marriage The argument against gay marriage is, admittedly one often based on religious grounds. The logical reasoning against gay marriage (aka proposition 8) is mostly misunderstood, ignored, and those who espouse prop. 8 are called bigots and haters. To understand the issue, we have to take a deeper look at what marriage really is. Why has every single human culture come up with some idea of marriage? Sure, there are some differences here and there, but in the end there's a single reason for it. People get married to have kids. For a society to function, there have to be children to ensure a new generation. Part of our obligation as human beings, is to ensure the health and safety of all children in any way possible. In addition to making children (sexual intercourse is the traditional method), parents have a special obligation to care for their child by providing them with their basic needs. Perhaps the most important part of caring for a child's basic needs is protecting their mental health. A marriage between a man and a woman is the tried and true method for producing the maximum number of healthy children. With heterosexual marriage as the standard, the mental health of a child from this union can be measured against the mental health of children from nonstandard marriages. However we can't just experiment on children. That would be testing non-consenting humans in experiments where their mental health could be irreparably damaged. So we have to make do with the data we already have. One of the few abnormal marriage types most people are aware of is polygamy. If we open the door to gay marriage, are we also opening the door to polygamy? Isn't it discrimination to tell someone how many people they can love? How is it any different from discrimination against gay marriage? The answer is that polygamy has been shown to harm childrens mental health. If you google 'effects of polygamy on children', you'll come up with some behavioral studies that paint polygamy in quite a poor light. For better results you can search Google Scholar, here. If you don't go look it up yourself, what these articles say is that polygamy is bad for kids. There are clear, experimentally verified downsides for at least one kind of abnormal marriage. While the results of polygamy on children is researched, there has been hardly any research on the children of gay couples. And if we open the door to gay marriage, do we also allow polygamy? Can we allow gay marriage, and risk damaging thousands of developing minds? + Show Spoiler [Text of Proposition 8] + This initiative measure is submitted to the people in accordance with the provisions of Article II, Section 8, of the California Constitution. This initiative measure expressly amends the California Constitution by adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are printed in italic type to indicate that they are new. SECTION 1. Title This measure shall be known and may be cited as the “California Marriage Protection Act.” SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution, to read: SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. Text taken from this source (PDF): Text of California ballot propositions Proposition 8 was made in response to the following California Supreme Court Decision (PDF). excerpts from the court ruling: + Show Spoiler [Majority opinion] + First, we must determine the nature and scope of the “right to marry” — a right that past cases establish as one of the fundamental constitutional rights embodied in the California Constitution. Although, as an historical matter, civil marriage and the rights associated with it traditionally have been afforded only to opposite-sex couples, this court’s landmark decision 60 years ago in Perez v. Sharp (1948) 32 Cal.2d 7114 — which found that California’s statutory provisions prohibiting interracial marriages were inconsistent with the fundamental constitutional right to marry, notwithstanding the circumstance that statutory prohibitions on interracial marriage had existed since the founding of the state... These core substantive rights include, most fundamentally, the opportunity of an individual to establish — with the person with whom the individual has chosen to share his or her life — an officially recognized and protected family possessing mutual rights and responsibilities and entitled to the same respect and dignity accorded a union traditionally designated as marriage. As past cases establish, the substantive right of two adults who share a loving relationship to join together to establish an officially recognized family of their own — and, if the couple chooses, to raise children within that family — constitutes a vitally important attribute of the fundamental interest in liberty and personal autonomy that the California Constitution secures to all persons for the benefit of both the individual and society. Although our state Constitution does not contain any explicit reference to a “right to marry,” past California cases establish beyond question that the right to marry is a fundamental right whose protection is guaranteed to all persons by the California Constitution. I encourage you to at least skim through parts of the decision. it's interesting stuff. + Show Spoiler [Minority opinion] + I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature’s own weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat the People’s will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative interference. Though the majority insists otherwise, its pronouncement seriously oversteps the judicial power. The majority has violated these principles. It simply does not have the right to erase, then recast, the age-old definition of marriage, as virtually all societies have understood it, in order to satisfy its own contemporary notions of equality and justice. I would avoid these difficulties by confirming clearly that there is no constitutional right to same-sex marriage. That is because marriage is, as it always has been, the right of a woman and an unrelated man to marry each other. First, it is certainly reasonable for the Legislature, having granted same-sex couples all substantive marital rights within its power, to assign those rights a name other than marriage. After all, an initiative statute adopted by a 61.4 percent popular vote, and constitutionally immune from repeal by the Legislature, defines marriage as a union of partners of the opposite sex. edit: added a title, and some excerpts from the the official majority decision of Lockyer v. City and County of San Francisco (2004). Also some excerpts from the dissenting opinion. + Show Spoiler + In fact, I voted no on proposition 8. You wanted the logical argument, so I gave it to you. | ||
Ludrik
Australia523 Posts
Also I'm not religious in anyway. It's just that this is primarily a religious issue whether the OP wants to accept that or not. | ||
stenole
Norway868 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:56 kemoryan wrote: Show nested quote + On November 04 2008 17:29 PanoRaMa wrote: I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred. Exactly. I can't see how marriage is so important. As you said, it's a simple title with lots of legal stuff tied to it. That's why I really don't understand 2 things: 1. Why do people like marrying, as it if was something necessary. 2. Why are people against gay marriage. I mean christ, it's just a freaking title, why so much bullshit about it? 1. I think it is partly about personal security. A person who has married you will if you've been married long enough have to go through all kinds of crap to unmarry you, not to mention she has to break a promise she made in front of the extended family and all your friends. So she is less likely to unmarry. It is also a safer situation for a child for the same reason. Also, it protects you legally if you've made sacrifices in the marriage. Say, you quit your job to fully support the spouse's career. If the marriage ends, you are still entitled to a certain portion of the family gold. Without any legal obligations, the spouse can just leave with all the money she's made. You'll remain behind with no possesions and lots of loans stupidly signed in your name. Then you have all the love, personal commitment, international diplomacy reasons. | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5068 Posts
One thing to think about though is the side-effects of overpopulation. Mao Ze Dong in the 50s encouraged the Chinese to have more babies because it seemed that a larger population was a good thing. China had to formulate a one child policy in the 70s to curb the exponential growth rate of their population or else they'd reach carrying capacity way too quickly. They've somewhat succeeded (delayed), but now there are also a bunch of side-effects of the one child policy as well. Either way overcrowding/overpopulation is a growing ecological and civil problem as well, so at the very least it's noteworthy how modern conflicts can/should impact ancient rites/traditions. | ||
benjammin
United States2728 Posts
On November 04 2008 18:05 Ki_Do wrote: this would increase homo population but not by choosing but by being influenced any1 knows that even anatomically men were made for women, ppl choices aside lol wat | ||
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