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nForever
United States9 Posts
Discuss! elections =)! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
dont wanna outline everything but really, like the facebook group says, against gay marriage? then dont get one and shut the fuck up. and why on earth would you ever want to take rights away from tax paying american citizens bigots. | ||
ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
I think the government should get out of marriage entirely, and along those lines, they shouldn't prevent anyone from being married. I voted no on prop 8 in California and voted no on a similar state constitutional amendment in Georgia in 2004 (it passed there anyway). | ||
Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
Garriage. It's not "marriage" but it's just as special. In fact, its so special that it's not the same word as marriage! The couple are still entitled to all the nuts and bolts of marriage but adjusted appropriately so that its for the same sex. There's still that special union, still that special pact, still the same expectations of domestic abuse and divorce (though actually Garriage would probably have statistically lower of these). Now you won't have to worry about uncivilized and uneducated co-workers asking you who your "wife" is if you're married to your husband and vice versa. You won't have to hear all the religious cries about how it's crossing over into the holy matrimony of the pencil being put into the pencil sharpener and how putting the pencil tip on the eraser end is a sin. Sure it isn't what most homosexuals are after, but why do we have to change the definition for something that's existed for so many centuries and millenia. (note: not to be confused with "garage".) | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
but i mean realistically speaking, nothing changes with your "marriage" imo. It's like turning 18, frankly nothing happens to you biologically, but now the law decides you're old enough to do such and such and take responsibility for your actions, etc. I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred. By banning gay marriage, people are just taking some of the legal aspects and the happiness value of "marriage" away from people, but I feel as if a lot of the people against gay marriage are simply against homosexuality itself - banning gay marriage isn't going to stop two homosexuals from loving each other, so what's the deal? I find the defense of "protecting marriage" to be a farce and just a way to justify one's own bigotry and intolerance. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Railz
United States1449 Posts
Oh well. good ol Mormon values. MAN AND GIRL(S) | ||
Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too. check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with: sisters, grandmas... | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:40 NeoIllusions wrote: <3 Pano lets marry keke | ||
SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
LET THEM GET MARRIED. LET THEM SUFFER LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. /END CLICHE JOKE. | ||
kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:29 PanoRaMa wrote: I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred. Exactly. I can't see how marriage is so important. As you said, it's a simple title with lots of legal stuff tied to it. That's why I really don't understand 2 things: 1. Why do people like marrying, as it if was something necessary. 2. Why are people against gay marriage. I mean christ, it's just a freaking title, why so much bullshit about it? | ||
kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:41 Ki_Do wrote: i dont care, any1 can do anything im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too. check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with: sisters, grandmas... I fail to see your argument. So what if the child grows thinking that homosexuality is normal? Is that harmful at all? Normality has never been and will never be the standard for sanity. Nazism was normal in german society, but does that mean it was sane? | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
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stenole
Norway868 Posts
Does that help you do your homework? | ||
Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
but not by choosing but by being influenced any1 knows that even anatomically men were made for women, ppl choices aside | ||
CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
In opposition to gay marriage The argument against gay marriage is, admittedly one often based on religious grounds. The logical reasoning against gay marriage (aka proposition 8) is mostly misunderstood, ignored, and those who espouse prop. 8 are called bigots and haters. To understand the issue, we have to take a deeper look at what marriage really is. Why has every single human culture come up with some idea of marriage? Sure, there are some differences here and there, but in the end there's a single reason for it. People get married to have kids. For a society to function, there have to be children to ensure a new generation. Part of our obligation as human beings, is to ensure the health and safety of all children in any way possible. In addition to making children (sexual intercourse is the traditional method), parents have a special obligation to care for their child by providing them with their basic needs. Perhaps the most important part of caring for a child's basic needs is protecting their mental health. A marriage between a man and a woman is the tried and true method for producing the maximum number of healthy children. With heterosexual marriage as the standard, the mental health of a child from this union can be measured against the mental health of children from nonstandard marriages. However we can't just experiment on children. That would be testing non-consenting humans in experiments where their mental health could be irreparably damaged. So we have to make do with the data we already have. One of the few abnormal marriage types most people are aware of is polygamy. If we open the door to gay marriage, are we also opening the door to polygamy? Isn't it discrimination to tell someone how many people they can love? How is it any different from discrimination against gay marriage? The answer is that polygamy has been shown to harm childrens mental health. If you google 'effects of polygamy on children', you'll come up with some behavioral studies that paint polygamy in quite a poor light. For better results you can search Google Scholar, here. If you don't go look it up yourself, what these articles say is that polygamy is bad for kids. There are clear, experimentally verified downsides for at least one kind of abnormal marriage. While the results of polygamy on children is researched, there has been hardly any research on the children of gay couples. And if we open the door to gay marriage, do we also allow polygamy? Can we allow gay marriage, and risk damaging thousands of developing minds? + Show Spoiler [Text of Proposition 8] + This initiative measure is submitted to the people in accordance with the provisions of Article II, Section 8, of the California Constitution. This initiative measure expressly amends the California Constitution by adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are printed in italic type to indicate that they are new. SECTION 1. Title This measure shall be known and may be cited as the “California Marriage Protection Act.” SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution, to read: SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. Text taken from this source (PDF): Text of California ballot propositions Proposition 8 was made in response to the following California Supreme Court Decision (PDF). excerpts from the court ruling: + Show Spoiler [Majority opinion] + First, we must determine the nature and scope of the “right to marry” — a right that past cases establish as one of the fundamental constitutional rights embodied in the California Constitution. Although, as an historical matter, civil marriage and the rights associated with it traditionally have been afforded only to opposite-sex couples, this court’s landmark decision 60 years ago in Perez v. Sharp (1948) 32 Cal.2d 7114 — which found that California’s statutory provisions prohibiting interracial marriages were inconsistent with the fundamental constitutional right to marry, notwithstanding the circumstance that statutory prohibitions on interracial marriage had existed since the founding of the state... These core substantive rights include, most fundamentally, the opportunity of an individual to establish — with the person with whom the individual has chosen to share his or her life — an officially recognized and protected family possessing mutual rights and responsibilities and entitled to the same respect and dignity accorded a union traditionally designated as marriage. As past cases establish, the substantive right of two adults who share a loving relationship to join together to establish an officially recognized family of their own — and, if the couple chooses, to raise children within that family — constitutes a vitally important attribute of the fundamental interest in liberty and personal autonomy that the California Constitution secures to all persons for the benefit of both the individual and society. Although our state Constitution does not contain any explicit reference to a “right to marry,” past California cases establish beyond question that the right to marry is a fundamental right whose protection is guaranteed to all persons by the California Constitution. I encourage you to at least skim through parts of the decision. it's interesting stuff. + Show Spoiler [Minority opinion] + I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature’s own weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat the People’s will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative interference. Though the majority insists otherwise, its pronouncement seriously oversteps the judicial power. The majority has violated these principles. It simply does not have the right to erase, then recast, the age-old definition of marriage, as virtually all societies have understood it, in order to satisfy its own contemporary notions of equality and justice. I would avoid these difficulties by confirming clearly that there is no constitutional right to same-sex marriage. That is because marriage is, as it always has been, the right of a woman and an unrelated man to marry each other. First, it is certainly reasonable for the Legislature, having granted same-sex couples all substantive marital rights within its power, to assign those rights a name other than marriage. After all, an initiative statute adopted by a 61.4 percent popular vote, and constitutionally immune from repeal by the Legislature, defines marriage as a union of partners of the opposite sex. edit: added a title, and some excerpts from the the official majority decision of Lockyer v. City and County of San Francisco (2004). Also some excerpts from the dissenting opinion. + Show Spoiler + In fact, I voted no on proposition 8. You wanted the logical argument, so I gave it to you. | ||
Ludrik
Australia523 Posts
Also I'm not religious in anyway. It's just that this is primarily a religious issue whether the OP wants to accept that or not. | ||
stenole
Norway868 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:56 kemoryan wrote: Show nested quote + On November 04 2008 17:29 PanoRaMa wrote: I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred. Exactly. I can't see how marriage is so important. As you said, it's a simple title with lots of legal stuff tied to it. That's why I really don't understand 2 things: 1. Why do people like marrying, as it if was something necessary. 2. Why are people against gay marriage. I mean christ, it's just a freaking title, why so much bullshit about it? 1. I think it is partly about personal security. A person who has married you will if you've been married long enough have to go through all kinds of crap to unmarry you, not to mention she has to break a promise she made in front of the extended family and all your friends. So she is less likely to unmarry. It is also a safer situation for a child for the same reason. Also, it protects you legally if you've made sacrifices in the marriage. Say, you quit your job to fully support the spouse's career. If the marriage ends, you are still entitled to a certain portion of the family gold. Without any legal obligations, the spouse can just leave with all the money she's made. You'll remain behind with no possesions and lots of loans stupidly signed in your name. Then you have all the love, personal commitment, international diplomacy reasons. | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
One thing to think about though is the side-effects of overpopulation. Mao Ze Dong in the 50s encouraged the Chinese to have more babies because it seemed that a larger population was a good thing. China had to formulate a one child policy in the 70s to curb the exponential growth rate of their population or else they'd reach carrying capacity way too quickly. They've somewhat succeeded (delayed), but now there are also a bunch of side-effects of the one child policy as well. Either way overcrowding/overpopulation is a growing ecological and civil problem as well, so at the very least it's noteworthy how modern conflicts can/should impact ancient rites/traditions. | ||
benjammin
United States2728 Posts
On November 04 2008 18:05 Ki_Do wrote: this would increase homo population but not by choosing but by being influenced any1 knows that even anatomically men were made for women, ppl choices aside lol wat | ||
AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
1) You can't compare polygamy and gay marriage. Gay marriage is a form of monogamy just like standard marriage. Monogamy and polygamy are completely different when you disregard the sexes of those involved. Monogamy is all about devoting oneself to one and only one other person, while polygamy is a whole different ballgame which violates long standing morals in many different cultures. 2) Also, I don't think it's valid to say that gay people shouldn't marry because their children could be adversely affected. In the 1950's, blacks were discriminated against, as were their children. I think we can all agree that saying black people shouldn't marry because their children would have tough lives is just ridiculous. The same could be said about poor people. Should we have an annual family income threshold to govern who can have children? 3) In response to others in the thread: Even if gay parents are more likely to bring up gay children (I doubt this is true but I don't know)... WHO CARES?!? Democratic parents are more likely to bring up democratic children and athletic parents are more likely to bring up athletic children. It's a fact of life that children in large take after their parents. | ||
Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
And here I thought people got married because they had found someone they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with in an a monogamous relationship! I had no idea that, all along, marriage was just a vehicle for procreation! How foolish of me! (People who think that CDR's post is a "good one" further amaze me, and I am currently about four drinks past being totally fucking plastered. Even this drunk, I amazed that some people in California think the curtailing of one group's rights - on the basis of their sexual preference - is acceptable in a "democratic" society of "equality." Indeed, to vote in opposition to gay marriage is to condone the belief that religion should drive public policy and is a nod in the affirmative to condone, likewise, [from a religious point of view] the curtailing of women's rights not only in Islamic countries, but also in our own. Then again, religious fundamentalists have always chosen to interpret the Bible in ways that are most conducive to their current agendas.) | ||
Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN DENYING RIGHTS OF WOMEN, AFRICAN-AMERICANS, ETC. | ||
PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
How could you miss that, seriously. Drunkenness or not. | ||
meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Suggestion Box
China115 Posts
To me (and it seems like just about everyone else in this thread) the issue is pretty simple if you think clearly about the difference between law and religion. All the people upset about the gays getting married, have religious reasons for condemning it. Yet the arguments they put forth don't fly, because the government isn't what defines holy matrimony--your religion, your holy book(s), your god(s), your community leaders, etc. do that, and if they really cared about marriage being sanctified they would want government completely out of the business of legislating it and defining it (as many of you have suggested, and I think it's a fine idea). But the gay haters don't call for this. They want to take rights away from gays, or at least some superficial status of "legal marriage", because they want to use the government to condemn them and punish them. They want their society (using the law) to send a clear message that homosexuality isn't on equal grounds with heterosexuality. Why they can't do this with their religion, or hell, why God won't do it for them, is anyone's guess. Gay. | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On November 04 2008 18:21 benjammin wrote: Show nested quote + On November 04 2008 18:05 Ki_Do wrote: this would increase homo population but not by choosing but by being influenced any1 knows that even anatomically men were made for women, ppl choices aside lol wat Not a well thought out argument. There are some good ones for you to consider though (I'm pretty sure the op went to bed). Personally, I'm believe that marriage should be allowed by anyone (no on prop 8, even though you didn't specifically mention what state you were in (California)). Marriage, before the concept became important for taxes, was always based upon the idea that god accepted two people into holy matrimony. In the particular case of marriage, I think that the whole concept is one example of where church and state are too closely linked for most people (especially homosexual people's) liking, to the point where prop 8 is just discriminatory. As long as you go vote though, I'm okay with whatever you vote for. | ||
Dark.Carnival
United States5095 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:41 Ki_Do wrote: i dont care, any1 can do anything im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too. check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with: sisters, grandmas... uh what? "so you can get married... but yeah kids, no" that sounds so great! you're such an awesome person for not discrimating marriage but when a gay couple wishes to have a child, and adopts, it's suddenly a terrible thing? so the kid is raised with a more open mind, gee that sounds dreadful. there are good parents, there are bad parents, i see no correlation between a heterosexual couple adopting a kid and a gay couple adopting a kid, it's dependant upon the people raising the child, not their sexuality. i'm sure you can find an equal amount of stories about gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender people that were raised with both their parents. you realize how diverse the world is? just because someone is different doesn't mean they the same as everyone else that's different. blah. k done ranting, that post just threw me for a loop : | oh and LOL: "i dont care, any1 can do anything, im only against gays adopting childs" somehow i missed that first sentence, seriously way to contradict what you say, apparently you DO care about what people do. | ||
Suggestion Box
China115 Posts
On November 04 2008 18:06 CDRdude wrote: People get married to have kids. Perhaps the most important part of caring for a child's basic needs is protecting their mental health. A marriage between a man and a woman is the tried and true method for producing the maximum number of healthy children. With heterosexual marriage as the standard, the mental health of a child from this union can be measured against the mental health of children from nonstandard marriages. However we can't just experiment on children. That would be testing non-consenting humans in experiments where their mental health could be irreparably damaged. So we have to make do with the data we already have. First of all, your argument hinges on the fact that marriage is for kids. As long as gays don't have kids, you have no objection to them getting married then, right? Because I don't think marriage is necessarily for the purpose of having kids anymore, especially gay marriages... To sum it your whole argument though: kids are important--so is their mental health. So you're saying we can't experiment on kids. Kids with straight parents are of normal mental health. We don't know whether kids with gay parents will have inferior mental health, and we sure can't experiment, so we better just not do anything different than the norm as far as raising kids goes. There are all kinds of wrong all over this argument. Your argument yields absurdities, first of all: basically, whatever is normal regarding children, we must not ever deviate from it. We can't ever try a surgery or a medicine on them--we can't introduce video games to them at the point when we did--all of this was horribly wrong because we put their very mental health at risk by doing anything different from the previous generation. This is an incredibly stifling conservative conclusion you've got here. Anything that may have any different effect on their mental health, but we don't know the effect, we must never do and must prevent, as far as the children go. That's your conclusion. Frankly, I disagree. We can experiment on children. Every couple is an experiment. Furthermore we don't actively prevent couples from raising children just because we feel there are too many unknowns with what the effect will be on their children's mental health. Your policy would have banned interracial couples of all kinds before they were a mass reality. And you can divide up people a nearly infinite amount of ways. Maybe children with both parents being lawers have an increased chance of this or that--does that mean we must actively prevent it? If not, then why? Your policy seems to be to use the law to maximize the mental health of our children, by forbidding all unknowns (everything but the typical), and that seems to mean we should also prevent all the KNOWN bads, at least. I don't think preventing the known bads would even fly, let alone the unknown. And to some extent every marriage is an unknown, but we can have estimates. So you are saying that gay marriage's risk of being bad is estimated at such a level that we must not let them raise children--too much risk to the child. Well just how much risk is that, sir? And if we can estimate a similar potential risk elsewhere, must we also ban those types of marriage (blue collar marriages with certain genes, ugly people, etc.?) To sum up with my disagreements with you above, (1) marriage is not for the purpose of raising children--when two men want to get married they aren't asking to have children obviously--therefore your whole essay is really only talking about gay adoption, which we can clearly forbid without even touching the issue of gay marriage, and I have to conclude that the issue is framed as gay marriage to bias people because trying to ban gay adoption doesn't fly the way the gay haters want it to; (2) we do not forbid marriages based on performance estimates regarding the child's likely mental health let alone the risk--and it's debatable whether this is ever allowable at all, let alone in the case of gay marriage. One of the few abnormal marriage types most people are aware of is polygamy. If we open the door to gay marriage, are we also opening the door to polygamy? Isn't it discrimination to tell someone how many people they can love? How is it any different from discrimination against gay marriage? The answer is that polygamy has been shown to harm childrens mental health. If you google 'effects of polygamy on children', you'll come up with some behavioral studies that paint polygamy in quite a poor light. For better results you can search Google Scholar, here. If you don't go look it up yourself, what these articles say is that polygamy is bad for kids. Unless gay adoption is shown to be harmful to children, it's unfair to take an unknown and say, "the only abnormal marriage we know of, is bad." Truth is, we have 2 parent marriage and we have polygamy, and even if we accept your conclusions about polygamy, that's still two types of marriage, one is popular and the unpopular one has inferior mental health results. Gay adoption according to you is an unknown, which means it might have better children than both the hetero and the polygamous, for all we know. So you can try to argue that we shouldn't experiment, but it's ridiculous to use one example and conclude that the less typical a marriage is the more harmful it is to the children. That obviously doesn't fly. I object to your logic, basically. | ||
CrimsonLotus
Colombia1123 Posts
Come on, if a homosexual couple wants to get married because they love each other, what is so wrong with that?, children are not gonna become gay just because this is allowed, its a matter of simple equality. You may not like homosexuality or homosexuals, that is your right, but so its their right to get married if they wish to do so. A different sexual orientation doesnt make you less human, so i dont see why they shouldnt have the same rights as everyone else. | ||
HooHa!
United States688 Posts
I think thats the argument without mentioning any religion, or whatever. Although a nation in the scriptures did perish from homosexuality. Sodom and gamora I believe. However you spell it. They were lovers of themselves. | ||
[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
People, there is a reason why California Supreme Court "unequivocally held that same-sex couples have a constitutional right to marry under the California Constitution." This should be a non-issue. The truth is it's not about religion, science, or rights, it's all fucking politics. Somewhere I suspect some group is using this as a political move to advance their career. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On November 04 2008 22:51 HooHa! wrote: If an entire nation was homosexual then we wouldn't survive. We would cease to exist. Given the period of time it takes us to die. I think thats the argument without mentioning any religion, or whatever. Although a nation in the scriptures did perish from homosexuality. Sodom and gamora I believe. However you spell it. They were lovers of themselves. This argument only works against homosexuality if it is seen as a choice, which it isn't. | ||
HooHa!
United States688 Posts
The fact is, if everyone was gay, we wouldn't progress as the human race. Not for very long anyways. Regardless of the genetics or whatever the mumbo jumbo is, or whatever you feel. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32055 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:41 Ki_Do wrote: i dont care, any1 can do anything im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too. check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with: sisters, grandmas... See, except the problem is, unlike the stuffy, conservatives who preach absinence education and suppress homosexual feelings, gays are open minded. Because it's kind of hard to agree with normal society if you're less than 10% of the entire world. Not to mention that it would be pretty damn impossible to not realize that a majority of the world is hetero. We don't live under a rock. | ||
HooHa!
United States688 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On November 04 2008 17:41 Ki_Do wrote: i dont care, any1 can do anything im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too. check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with: sisters, grandmas... This is not how you make a point, "check some stories". How the hell is that supposed to convince anyone? You're implying that not having a mother and father heightens the chance of being gay, either come up with facts and statistics or shut up. Ignorant crap like that is why gays are being discriminated against and have limited personal freedom. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On November 04 2008 23:45 HooHa! wrote: So why do you think there isn't a choice? You digress from your own statement. I didn't really think that needed answering. If you are sexually attracted to men you can still have sex with women I don't contest that. But the point is that you don't WANT to have sex with women because you aren't sexually attracted to them. It's not a fair choice. | ||
HooHa!
United States688 Posts
Life isn't fair. | ||
Falcynn
United States3597 Posts
On November 04 2008 23:38 HooHa! wrote: I'm not really sure the point you're making. It's obvious that a society 100% full of gay people wouldn't survive past a single generation...but are you trying to imply that allowing gay marriage will suddenly turn a whole nation gay?You aren't magnetized to someone else's penis when you are gay. There's a choice in everything. The fact is, if everyone was gay, we wouldn't progress as the human race. Not for very long anyways. Regardless of the genetics or whatever the mumbo jumbo is, or whatever you feel. As far as I know the number of gays in the US amount to 2-7% (the studies I've seen say 1% but since it seemed obviously flawed I inflated it a bit, probably too much but that's not that important). Do you really think that allowing gay marriage will somehow cause the number to rise to a full 100% in even 500 years? If yes...then could you explain your reasoning? If no, then your argument is pointless. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On November 04 2008 23:55 HooHa! wrote: Well, I knew a lesbian girl who had lesbian moms, and she was a bad driver, actually a horrible driver. Theres one stat. Include it into the tranny data that doesn't exist yet. We'll file it one by one. Life isn't fair. Statistical legitimacy relies on three things: 1. Average "man" and natural distribution. 2. Law of Large Numbers 3. Law of regularity. You 'statistic' of this one person you saw who happened have these characteristics is completely retarded and you'd have to be brain dead to try and base anything off of it. Literally, it's no different from seeing one person living in North America with brown hair, and then concluding that everyone living in North America has brown hair. It's mind boggling how many people don't understand statistical legitimacy, yet insist on using it in their pathetic arguments to justify their shameful views and values. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On November 05 2008 00:07 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Show nested quote + On November 04 2008 23:55 HooHa! wrote: Well, I knew a lesbian girl who had lesbian moms, and she was a bad driver, actually a horrible driver. Theres one stat. Include it into the tranny data that doesn't exist yet. We'll file it one by one. Life isn't fair. Statistical legitimacy relies on three things: 1. Average "man" and natural distribution. 2. Law of Large Numbers 3. Law of regularity. You 'statistic' of this one person you saw who happened have these characteristics is completely retarded and you'd have to be brain dead to try and base anything off of it. Literally, it's no different from seeing one person living in North America with brown hair, and then concluding that everyone living in North America has brown hair. It's mind boggling how many people don't understand statistical legitimacy, yet insist on using it in their pathetic arguments to justify their shameful views and values. I think he was being sarcastic, at least that's why I gave that post the benefit of the doubt and didn't reply to it. This post adresses Ki_Do's argument perfectly though. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
Apologies if you were sarcastic, HooHa. | ||
Dark.Carnival
United States5095 Posts
On November 04 2008 23:38 HooHa! wrote: You aren't magnetized to someone else's penis when you are gay. There's a choice in everything. The fact is, if everyone was gay, we wouldn't progress as the human race. Not for very long anyways. Regardless of the genetics or whatever the mumbo jumbo is, or whatever you feel. People have choice, yes, but honestly? "Gee, I want to choose to be discriminated against, that sounds like a good way to live life" Or, how about.. someone is born the way they are and find that they are attracted to the same sex that they are.. just like someone who is born and is attracted to the opposite sex. Your second ?point is just... sad. Everyone is obviously not gay, because people are DIFFERENT, and there's a thing called diversity. It's not like some virus that all of a sudden the world will turn 'gay' and we will all stop reproducing, that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On November 04 2008 23:55 HooHa! wrote: Life isn't fair. Life isn't fair is not an argument, life can be changed. It's a logical fallacy. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
I really think sexual choice has more to do with indoctrination than anything, although perhaps the few that deviate despite these indoctrinations truly are deviants, I think just about everyone has the propensity to be bisexual (though personally, I am fully heterosexual due to such indoctrinations). Although perhaps a primary preference is still applicable to all (and noticeably important to socialization with people who won't take the inclination that you're coming onto them, a reason why gay guys always have lots of female friends). | ||
Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
Oh and I think others feel that marriage is either a religious or state sponsored act, and it is irrelevant to gay people that they become married, which is easy to counter since theres no real reason why hetero couples should marry. | ||
cava
United States1035 Posts
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KaasZerg
Netherlands927 Posts
Gays and lesbians reproduce or adopt (they fuck the ugly women, lol), thats fine with me. It is better to have good homo parents then a retard drunk or psycho hetero. As far as rolemodels go there are more rolemodels then just the parents. Kids raised by homosexuals are not predestined to become like their parents in the sexual sence. | ||
ish0wstopper
Korea (South)342 Posts
by that i mean gay people should be unable to procreate like heterosexual couples and wouldn't pass on genetic attributes that would lead to a son or daughter that would also be gay | ||
Chromyne
Canada561 Posts
On November 04 2008 18:47 Rayzorblade wrote: I will also note that I am fucking beyond drunk, but I really wanted to respond to this because I am so infuriated at people who actually think it's okay to deny the rights of others on the basis of sexual preference. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN DENYING RIGHTS OF WOMEN, AFRICAN-AMERICANS, ETC. I wasn't going to reply to this thread, but when I read this, it made no sense to me and now I know that you were truly beyond drunk. Historically speaking (I am not up to date on this issue) no one is being denied any rights. Everyone has the right to a heterosexual marriage between a man and a woman, and no one is being denied that right. This IS different from denying rights of women and or African Americans. What homosexuals want is SPECIAL rights. I am not saying that homosexuals shouldn't have the right to marriage, but don't think that these are the same kind of rights. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On November 05 2008 01:51 Chromyne wrote: Show nested quote + On November 04 2008 18:47 Rayzorblade wrote: I will also note that I am fucking beyond drunk, but I really wanted to respond to this because I am so infuriated at people who actually think it's okay to deny the rights of others on the basis of sexual preference. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN DENYING RIGHTS OF WOMEN, AFRICAN-AMERICANS, ETC. I wasn't going to reply to this thread, but when I read this, it made no sense to me and now I know that you were truly beyond drunk. Historically speaking (I am not up to date on this issue) no one is being denied any rights. Everyone has the right to a heterosexual marriage between a man and a woman, and no one is being denied that right. This IS different from denying rights of women and or African Americans. What homosexuals want is SPECIAL rights. I am not saying that homosexuals shouldn't have the right to marriage, but don't think that these are the same kind of rights. That's such a lame loophole because the only reason that marriage is between man and woman strictly is because homosexuality was viewed as a sin in the past. And now the anti-gay lobby clings to this belief like it's law. Laws can be changed, rights can be given. You're denying people privileges that you willingly accept yourself but don't want to give to others because they're different. It's not that different from racism in the early days. Your argument is basically that gays can't get married because they're gay, and marriage is about heterosexual marriage. If you apply that to racism you could say that black people could sit anywhere in the bus in the old days, as long as they weren't black... When they wanted to sit anywhere they were asking for special rights because they weren't white. That basically means that any right you're asking for is a special right. You're just narrowing it down to homosexuality, you can discriminate people on basically anything. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
There were some arguments about the semantics of gay marriages in which marriages very specifically means between a man and a woman. This seems to assume that words have meanings outside of their use, that marriages somehow essentially means the pairing of a man and a woman. Words have always changed their meanings, the word "decimate" used to mean to destroy exactly one tenth (deci meaning a tenth obviously). "Meld" used to mean to display something, but has since become a combination if weld and melt. So words change their meanings, so it can't be said that the word marriage refers specifically to male and female. Secondly, as someone already pointed out, the comparison with polygamy doesn't really hold. Polygamy is a vastly different situation, while gay marriage simply has one person of a different gender (than expected) in the marriage. For you to argue that gay marriage is fundamentally different, you'd have to prove that people from different genders are fundamentally different, and that men can never be like women (barring the obvious physical differences) or women like men. Psychological research up to date has found very little evidence to suggest that men and women are fundamentally, or even practically, very different. Furthermore, the whole child thing doesn't make sense to me. How does marriage change gay couples' ability to have children? If unmarried people aren't allowed to adopt a child, and it's somehow proven that gay couples permanently scar children's mental health, then surely that law could be extended to include gay marriages? However, I'm not sure if this law does exist, as I can't believe that a law would be passed stating that women need to be married in order to be artificially inseminated. So basically, I can't see how getting married changes a couples ability to have a child. And if it does, it's not like they could conceive naturally, so then other laws could be implemented should it be necessary. From my studies in psychology it does not seem like gay couples would have a particularly greater chance to raise gay children, except that perhaps children from gay couples would be more open to being gay, which might change the prevalence of gay couples with gay children (which is not necessarily a bad thing). Added to that, even if there was a larger chance for gay couples to have gay children, would this necessarily be a bad thing? The government cannot outlaw homosexual marraige for that reason, as that would imply that homosexuality is somehow a bad life-style, or a life-style that the government is against. And finally, if homosexuals not having children is seen as an inherent problem with homosexuals (not that it cant be remedied with sperm donation or whatever the female version of sperm donation is), then surely that "problem" should also include women who don't have children. Seriously, if you can't force women to have children, then you can't use that as a reason against homosexuality. | ||
CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
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Chromyne
Canada561 Posts
On November 05 2008 02:00 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2008 01:51 Chromyne wrote: On November 04 2008 18:47 Rayzorblade wrote: I will also note that I am fucking beyond drunk, but I really wanted to respond to this because I am so infuriated at people who actually think it's okay to deny the rights of others on the basis of sexual preference. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN DENYING RIGHTS OF WOMEN, AFRICAN-AMERICANS, ETC. I wasn't going to reply to this thread, but when I read this, it made no sense to me and now I know that you were truly beyond drunk. Historically speaking (I am not up to date on this issue) no one is being denied any rights. Everyone has the right to a heterosexual marriage between a man and a woman, and no one is being denied that right. This IS different from denying rights of women and or African Americans. What homosexuals want is SPECIAL rights. I am not saying that homosexuals shouldn't have the right to marriage, but don't think that these are the same kind of rights. That's such a lame loophole because the only reason that marriage is between man and woman strictly is because homosexuality was viewed as a sin in the past. It may be a loophole, but it's a fact regardless. Whether it is lame or was a result of religious belief is also irrelevant because that's just the state our society is in. And now the anti-gay lobby clings to this belief like it's law. Okay. Laws can be changed, rights can be given. You're denying people privileges that you willingly accept yourself but don't want to give to others because they're different. It's not that different from racism in the early days. Then give them the right. It is different from racism. You can be a former homosexual [or heterosexual], but you can't be a former Chinese person (not in a true sense anyway). Your argument is basically that gays can't get married because they're gay, and marriage is about heterosexual marriage. If you apply that to racism you could say that black people could sit anywhere in the bus in the old days, as long as they weren't black... When they wanted to sit anywhere they were asking for special rights because they weren't white. That basically means that any right you're asking for is a special right. You're just narrowing it down to homosexuality, you can discriminate people on basically anything. Sure. Wow, initially, I thought you were disagreeing with me. | ||
benjammin
United States2728 Posts
This solution makes much more sense; it allows moralistic opposition to gay marriage to be defined by religious doctrine, but prevents mass discrimination by a public institution. Using arguments like "unfit household" and "against nature" are total hogwash and irrelevant to the issue. You can have whatever moral disagreement with gay marriage that you like, but it's antithetical to living in a civilized society to deny any group of people consistent human rights. Also, if you want to argue constitutionality, amendments to constitutions typically exist to PROTECT individual rights rather than to DENY them. | ||
HooHa!
United States688 Posts
On November 05 2008 00:14 Chef wrote: Well, it was replying in general to the discussion. I quoted him specifically because he seemed representative of that squalid train of thought. Apologies if you were sarcastic, HooHa. Well it's true I was in a car with a horrible lesbian driver before, but I was kidding about the statistic. | ||
BooBoogers
United States229 Posts
Your argument is basically that gays can't get married because they're gay, and marriage is about heterosexual marriage. If you apply that to racism you could say that black people could sit anywhere in the bus in the old days, as long as they weren't black... When they wanted to sit anywhere they were asking for special rights because they weren't white. That basically means that any right you're asking for is a special right. You're just narrowing it down to homosexuality, you can discriminate people on basically anything. Comparing it to racism is ridiculous. Being black, white, or whatever you are, is not a choice. Whether you want to like girls or guys is. Your not born "Gay". I know that's an entirely different argument but a few of you using it as your main point of emphasis is laughable. | ||
Suggestion Box
China115 Posts
You guys chose to not be gay? Isn't that kind of admitting you're gay but you tried not to be? | ||
Try
United States1293 Posts
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
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Augury
United States758 Posts
![]() If it's a problem for you, don't get one and don't go to a church that supports gay marriage. As far as changing the word to something else, that's BS. Might as well go back to restaurants having a black section and a white section, they're the same thing, just called different. Discrimination just seems so pointless, why put effort into something as silly as that when there's so much else going on. Discrimination is deciding to be upset for no reason, I know I personally don't like being upset, so no idea why someone would choose to do so. | ||
GrayArea
United States872 Posts
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Augury
United States758 Posts
Adoption: Gay couples are just as capable of raising children than anyone else. As far as them making their kids gay, that's just ignorant. The only reason their kids would be more likely to be 'gay' is that they would be less scared to 'come out of the closet' because their parents were gay. Also keep in mind that people used to look down on interracial marriages. A black man and white woman can't raise a kid, the child would be so confused and different. It's all BS, we already went through this discrimination crap and clearly decided it was wrong, yet here we are again. Some people just can't learn from their mistakes. As far as it affecting religion. It's up to a church to decide who they marry. There are countless branches of Christianity that all differ from one another, this is just another subject they can differ on. | ||
Augury
United States758 Posts
On November 05 2008 12:10 GrayArea wrote: Do gay people consciously make the choice to be gay, or are they just born that way? Like once they reach puberty do they automatically feel attracted to the same sex by instinct, or do they consciously make the choice to be gay? Born that way, but it's not like they know from child hood. It takes time for them to realize it. Just like it takes time for straight people to decide that girls are not yucky anymore. Also I BELIEVE, not sure, that everyone is actually bi, their chemistry just leans them to one sex. I'm straight and a lot more attracted to women, but I can also find some men attractive. I think just about everyone else can say the same. Edit: As far as CDR's post says, we have to keep in mind that children from 'abnormal' marriages are possibly having problems because of society's view on their life style. It might not necessarily mean the parents or the family system is a problem, it might be that society is the problem. I'm assuming the polygamy tests used were not in a closed testing environment as there were children involved, so society would have had some influence. | ||
conCentrate9
United States438 Posts
On November 05 2008 12:10 GrayArea wrote: Do gay people consciously make the choice to be gay, or are they just born that way? Like once they reach puberty do they automatically feel attracted to the same sex by instinct, or do they consciously make the choice to be gay? This, much like your username, is a gray area. It all depends on your belief and there have been countless experiments acting as evidence to either claim. | ||
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Would. Anyone. Vote. Yes. On. 8. I just don't get it. + Show Spoiler + Sorry for the non-constructive post, but what else is there to say? | ||
BooBoogers
United States229 Posts
Born that way, but it's not like they know from child hood. It takes time for them to realize it. Just like it takes time for straight people to decide that girls are not yucky anymore. That is not true. It may be what you believe but there are many that disagree. | ||
Fr33t
United States1128 Posts
Amends the Florida constitution to protect marriage as the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife and provides that no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent shall be valid or recognized. Yes 4,632,316 62% No 2,832,236 38% Woot! | ||
LiAlH4
New Zealand111 Posts
If it is accepted that marriage (or at least some form of civil union if the term marriage is considered reserved for only a man and a woman for whatever reason - religious or historical) should be allowed between any two consenting adults.... Should marriage be allowed between two consenting siblings. There are obviously strong arguments against this for heterosexual siblings (much stronger than against gay marriage), because if any children were to be born to two siblings they would obviously be much more likely to have genetic defects. However, for a homosexual incestual relationship, since there is no chance of offspring, ought there be legal recognition (or even permission) of the union of two brothers or two sisters (or cousins etc.) if they love each other and are consenting adults... As far as I can tell, all the arguments in favour of gay marriage could also be used in favour of incestual marriage. Yet the idea of incest seems morally wrong. Of course, that could just be the conditioning of a society afraid of the genetic consequences of children born from an incestual relationship, which doesn't' really apply in this case. So... anyone have any thoughts on this? | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
is it your life? are you a gay guy trying to get married? no? then this doesn't fucking affect you. you wanna get philosophical about it? you're a fucking teenager, you don't know anything | ||
Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
He is the crotchmaster yes he is | ||
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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