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Gay Marriage

Blogs > nForever
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
nForever
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States9 Posts
November 04 2008 07:35 GMT
#1
can someone give me arguments against gay marriage that doesn't have to do with religion or because "its been that way for a long time"?

Discuss!

elections =)!

***
PanoRaMa
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States5070 Posts
November 04 2008 07:38 GMT
#2
seriously i really dont get from a legal standpoint the people who are voting to ban gay marriage (prop 8 in california)

dont wanna outline everything but really, like the facebook group says, against gay marriage? then dont get one and shut the fuck up.

and why on earth would you ever want to take rights away from tax paying american citizens

bigots.
ShadowDrgn
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2497 Posts
November 04 2008 07:53 GMT
#3
It's in society's interest for heterosexual couples to get married and raise kids in a stable environment. If gay marriage doesn't provide those same benefits, why should they be encouraged or get tax/estate benefits from the government? There's a lot more to the argument than that, but it's not terribly strong and I'm not going to seriously advocate it.

I think the government should get out of marriage entirely, and along those lines, they shouldn't prevent anyone from being married. I voted no on prop 8 in California and voted no on a similar state constitutional amendment in Georgia in 2004 (it passed there anyway).
Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that’s the end of you.
Not_Computer
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada2277 Posts
November 04 2008 08:15 GMT
#4
Ah, this is such a touchy topic I don't know how to go about it without being offending to someone out there. But here's my opinion:

Garriage.

It's not "marriage" but it's just as special. In fact, its so special that it's not the same word as marriage! The couple are still entitled to all the nuts and bolts of marriage but adjusted appropriately so that its for the same sex.

There's still that special union, still that special pact, still the same expectations of domestic abuse and divorce (though actually Garriage would probably have statistically lower of these). Now you won't have to worry about uncivilized and uneducated co-workers asking you who your "wife" is if you're married to your husband and vice versa. You won't have to hear all the religious cries about how it's crossing over into the holy matrimony of the pencil being put into the pencil sharpener and how putting the pencil tip on the eraser end is a sin.

Sure it isn't what most homosexuals are after, but why do we have to change the definition for something that's existed for so many centuries and millenia.

(note: not to be confused with "garage".)
"Jaedong hyung better be ready. I'm going to order the most expensive dinner in Korea."
PanoRaMa
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States5070 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-04 08:30:56
November 04 2008 08:29 GMT
#5
i almost dont want to bring this up because it might be too off topic and may derail the main purpose of the thread, but i think a lot of it has to do with the definition and significance of marriage in itself. a lot of people talk about the holy matrimony, the significance of it that has sustained throughout many civilizations, etc. but my take on it is that it doesn't really carry that weight anymore. look at the divorce rates in the US, especially among low to mid class white couples who are most likely to be proponents of protecting marriage (sorry if this is wrong, I just deduced this from the top of my head and it seems accurate)

but i mean realistically speaking, nothing changes with your "marriage" imo. It's like turning 18, frankly nothing happens to you biologically, but now the law decides you're old enough to do such and such and take responsibility for your actions, etc.

I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred.

By banning gay marriage, people are just taking some of the legal aspects and the happiness value of "marriage" away from people, but I feel as if a lot of the people against gay marriage are simply against homosexuality itself - banning gay marriage isn't going to stop two homosexuals from loving each other, so what's the deal? I find the defense of "protecting marriage" to be a farce and just a way to justify one's own bigotry and intolerance.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 04 2008 08:40 GMT
#6
<3 Pano
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Railz
Profile Joined July 2008
United States1449 Posts
November 04 2008 08:40 GMT
#7
I like how Christians believe they have a morale ownership over religion when it really has roots in Paganism (and Judaism really founded what the Christians view as Marriage)

Oh well. good ol Mormon values. MAN AND GIRL(S)
Did the whole world just get a lot smaller and go whooosh?_-` Number 0ne By.Fantasy Fanatic!
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
November 04 2008 08:41 GMT
#8
i dont care, any1 can do anything
im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too.
check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with:
sisters, grandmas...
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
PanoRaMa
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States5070 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-04 08:47:05
November 04 2008 08:46 GMT
#9
On November 04 2008 17:40 NeoIllusions wrote:
<3 Pano


lets marry keke
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
November 04 2008 08:54 GMT
#10
CLICHE JOKE:
LET THEM GET MARRIED. LET THEM SUFFER LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
/END CLICHE JOKE.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
kemoryan
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Spain1506 Posts
November 04 2008 08:56 GMT
#11
On November 04 2008 17:29 PanoRaMa wrote:
I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred.


Exactly. I can't see how marriage is so important. As you said, it's a simple title with lots of legal stuff tied to it. That's why I really don't understand 2 things:

1. Why do people like marrying, as it if was something necessary.

2. Why are people against gay marriage. I mean christ, it's just a freaking title, why so much bullshit about it?
Freedom is a stranger
kemoryan
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Spain1506 Posts
November 04 2008 09:01 GMT
#12
On November 04 2008 17:41 Ki_Do wrote:
i dont care, any1 can do anything
im only against gays adopting childs, its certainly a dangerous thing since childs would grow thinking that homo is a normal thing and would try that too.
check real stories, a lot of homos and trannies have lost their parents while only a lil boy and had to live with:
sisters, grandmas...


I fail to see your argument. So what if the child grows thinking that homosexuality is normal?
Is that harmful at all?
Normality has never been and will never be the standard for sanity.

Nazism was normal in german society, but does that mean it was sane?
Freedom is a stranger
PanoRaMa
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States5070 Posts
November 04 2008 09:03 GMT
#13
stenole
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Norway869 Posts
November 04 2008 09:04 GMT
#14
I think Ki_Do hit the nail on the head without meaning to. Gay people who are married are more likely to want to adopt. And I think a lot of people think that is damaging to the child. Some claim that they will not be sufficiently exposed to one of the sexes, some claim that it will make the child gay, some argue that other kids will beat up the kid for having gay parents. I disagree that this is bad though. The first arguement could be said about children growing up with a single parent or at an orphanage. The second implies that being gay is evil, which I don't believe. The third implies that the gay parents fault that other kids would beat up their kid which is wrong. Some people still think these arguments are relevant.

Does that help you do your homework?
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
November 04 2008 09:05 GMT
#15
this would increase homo population
but not by choosing but by being influenced
any1 knows that even anatomically men were made for women, ppl choices aside
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
CDRdude
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States5625 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-04 09:39:33
November 04 2008 09:06 GMT
#16
In opposition to gay marriage


The argument against gay marriage is, admittedly one often based on religious grounds. The logical reasoning against gay marriage (aka proposition 8) is mostly misunderstood, ignored, and those who espouse prop. 8 are called bigots and haters. To understand the issue, we have to take a deeper look at what marriage really is. Why has every single human culture come up with some idea of marriage? Sure, there are some differences here and there, but in the end there's a single reason for it.

People get married to have kids. For a society to function, there have to be children to ensure a new generation. Part of our obligation as human beings, is to ensure the health and safety of all children in any way possible. In addition to making children (sexual intercourse is the traditional method), parents have a special obligation to care for their child by providing them with their basic needs.

Perhaps the most important part of caring for a child's basic needs is protecting their mental health. A marriage between a man and a woman is the tried and true method for producing the maximum number of healthy children. With heterosexual marriage as the standard, the mental health of a child from this union can be measured against the mental health of children from nonstandard marriages. However we can't just experiment on children. That would be testing non-consenting humans in experiments where their mental health could be irreparably damaged. So we have to make do with the data we already have.

One of the few abnormal marriage types most people are aware of is polygamy. If we open the door to gay marriage, are we also opening the door to polygamy? Isn't it discrimination to tell someone how many people they can love? How is it any different from discrimination against gay marriage? The answer is that polygamy has been shown to harm childrens mental health. If you google 'effects of polygamy on children', you'll come up with some behavioral studies that paint polygamy in quite a poor light. For better results you can search Google Scholar, here. If you don't go look it up yourself, what these articles say is that polygamy is bad for kids.

There are clear, experimentally verified downsides for at least one kind of abnormal marriage. While the results of polygamy on children is researched, there has been hardly any research on the children of gay couples. And if we open the door to gay marriage, do we also allow polygamy? Can we allow gay marriage, and risk damaging thousands of developing minds?

+ Show Spoiler [Text of Proposition 8] +
This initiative measure is submitted to the people in accordance with the
provisions of Article II, Section 8, of the California Constitution.
This initiative measure expressly amends the California Constitution by
adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are
printed in italic type to indicate that they are new.
SECTION 1. Title
This measure shall be known and may be cited as the “California Marriage
Protection Act.”
SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution,
to read:
SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized
in California.

Text taken from this source (PDF): Text of California ballot propositions

Proposition 8 was made in response to the following California Supreme Court Decision (PDF).

excerpts from the court ruling:
+ Show Spoiler [Majority opinion] +

First, we must determine the nature and scope of the “right to marry” — a
right that past cases establish as one of the fundamental constitutional rights
embodied in the California Constitution. Although, as an historical matter, civil
marriage and the rights associated with it traditionally have been afforded only to
opposite-sex couples, this court’s landmark decision 60 years ago in Perez v.
Sharp (1948) 32 Cal.2d 7114 — which found that California’s statutory provisions
prohibiting interracial marriages were inconsistent with the fundamental
constitutional right to marry, notwithstanding the circumstance that statutory
prohibitions on interracial marriage had existed since the founding of the state...


These core substantive rights include, most fundamentally, the
opportunity of an individual to establish — with the person with whom the
individual has chosen to share his or her life — an officially recognized and
protected family possessing mutual rights and responsibilities and entitled to the same respect and dignity accorded a union traditionally designated as marriage.
As past cases establish, the substantive right of two adults who share a loving
relationship to join together to establish an officially recognized family of their
own — and, if the couple chooses, to raise children within that family —
constitutes a vitally important attribute of the fundamental interest in liberty and
personal autonomy that the California Constitution secures to all persons for the
benefit of both the individual and society.

Although our state Constitution does not contain any explicit reference to a
“right to marry,” past California cases establish beyond question that the right to
marry is a fundamental right whose protection is guaranteed to all persons by the
California Constitution.

I encourage you to at least skim through parts of the decision. it's interesting stuff.

+ Show Spoiler [Minority opinion] +

I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature’s own
weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat
the People’s will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative
interference. Though the majority insists otherwise, its pronouncement seriously
oversteps the judicial power.

The majority has violated these principles. It simply does not have the right
to erase, then recast, the age-old definition of marriage, as virtually all societies
have understood it, in order to satisfy its own contemporary notions of equality
and justice.

I would avoid these difficulties by confirming clearly that there is no
constitutional right to same-sex marriage. That is because marriage is, as it always
has been, the right of a woman and an unrelated man to marry each other.

First, it is certainly reasonable for the Legislature, having granted same-sex
couples all substantive marital rights within its power, to assign those rights a
name other than marriage. After all, an initiative statute adopted by a 61.4 percent
popular vote, and constitutionally immune from repeal by the Legislature, defines
marriage as a union of partners of the opposite sex.


edit: added a title, and some excerpts from the the official majority decision of Lockyer v. City and County of San Francisco (2004). Also some excerpts from the dissenting opinion.

+ Show Spoiler +
In fact, I voted no on proposition 8. You wanted the logical argument, so I gave it to you.


Force staff is the best item in the game.
Ludrik
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia523 Posts
November 04 2008 09:14 GMT
#17
A type of partner registrar where you could list someone as being your partner and which would give them all the legal rights equivalent to being married would imo be better. Marriage is a religious thing so if the religion doesn't support gay marriage then it's just stupid. I've got nothing against two people having a ceremony to say they love each other and for this to be legally awknowledged. It just doesn't make sense to call it marriage though.

Also I'm not religious in anyway. It's just that this is primarily a religious issue whether the OP wants to accept that or not.
Only a fool would die laughing. I was a fool.
stenole
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Norway869 Posts
November 04 2008 09:16 GMT
#18
On November 04 2008 17:56 kemoryan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2008 17:29 PanoRaMa wrote:
I feel marriage is simply a title, with a lot of other complicated legal stuff tied to it. Two people who are not married will genuinely love each other the same the week before marriage and the week after. Marriage is to make things "official", a certain regard that some people would like to have, but in no way is marriage some biological happening that needs to be held dear and sacred.


Exactly. I can't see how marriage is so important. As you said, it's a simple title with lots of legal stuff tied to it. That's why I really don't understand 2 things:

1. Why do people like marrying, as it if was something necessary.

2. Why are people against gay marriage. I mean christ, it's just a freaking title, why so much bullshit about it?

1. I think it is partly about personal security. A person who has married you will if you've been married long enough have to go through all kinds of crap to unmarry you, not to mention she has to break a promise she made in front of the extended family and all your friends. So she is less likely to unmarry. It is also a safer situation for a child for the same reason. Also, it protects you legally if you've made sacrifices in the marriage. Say, you quit your job to fully support the spouse's career. If the marriage ends, you are still entitled to a certain portion of the family gold. Without any legal obligations, the spouse can just leave with all the money she's made. You'll remain behind with no possesions and lots of loans stupidly signed in your name.

Then you have all the love, personal commitment, international diplomacy reasons.
PanoRaMa
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States5070 Posts
November 04 2008 09:20 GMT
#19
Good post, CDR.

One thing to think about though is the side-effects of overpopulation. Mao Ze Dong in the 50s encouraged the Chinese to have more babies because it seemed that a larger population was a good thing. China had to formulate a one child policy in the 70s to curb the exponential growth rate of their population or else they'd reach carrying capacity way too quickly. They've somewhat succeeded (delayed), but now there are also a bunch of side-effects of the one child policy as well.

Either way overcrowding/overpopulation is a growing ecological and civil problem as well, so at the very least it's noteworthy how modern conflicts can/should impact ancient rites/traditions.
benjammin
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2728 Posts
November 04 2008 09:21 GMT
#20
On November 04 2008 18:05 Ki_Do wrote:
this would increase homo population
but not by choosing but by being influenced
any1 knows that even anatomically men were made for women, ppl choices aside


lol wat
wash uffitizi, drive me to firenze
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