On October 21 2008 22:38 Ideas wrote:
I don't like double-elim tournaments... It seems to give the player from winner's bracket too much momentum.

How can you have too much momentum considering the alternative?

raga4ka

Bulgaria5676 Posts

October 21 2008 16:55 GMT

#22

Hmm maybe Lecaf players are too good and they kill each others in the finals ? With the maps favioring terran and not Jaedong

- out of luck with the maps ...

I voted Savior in a slump . Well except him and Jaedong i don't see enyone worthy to win MSL tittles repeatedly no more .

Nick_54

United States2230 Posts

October 21 2008 18:50 GMT

#23

Idk, its not like they haven't come close. Bisu went back to back and made it to the finals the next season.

Mind after his upset of Bisu made it to ro4 before losing to eventual champion Jaedong.

Jaedong made it to the finals before ForGG beat him.

ForGG has run into Stork who he still could possibly beat, but Stork is probably the hottest player right now. It kind of reminds me of champion Bisu facing the hottest player Hwasin in Gom3, but ForGG doesn't have that magic that Bisu does.

So, idk there is also the theory that there will be no more bonjwa's and that there will be a lot of parity in starcraft for the rest of its time.

Dont worry though cuz Bisu is gonna repeat the repeat this season and next!

mikeymoo

Canada7170 Posts

October 21 2008 18:52 GMT

#24

quarterfinals change.

WorldCommunist8

United States226 Posts

October 21 2008 19:26 GMT

#25

On October 21 2008 21:09 Plexa wrote:
Timeline;
- Removed true double elim in pringles-1
- Double-elim completely removed in gomtv season 2
- Round of 32 introduced in gomtv season 2
- Quarter finals were played over two days since gomtv season 2
- Savior has slumped since the start of gomtv season 2

If this is all correct (I'm sure it is) then you can't really pick one reason as to why it happened, because this is also the last season we had a repeat winner. However someone also pointed out, the competition is getting much better by the day. No longer can one player completely dominate and be untouchable, as almost every team has a viable threat that can snag an ace match from the other team, which is where people usually look at a clutch player's true skill (as well as a Bo5 in one night but some of the best don't get to them because of the spread out Bo3's and such).

I said the removal of double elimination, because double elimination allowed for two things:
1) Greater margin of error. A player could slip up and still have a shot at coming back by working his way through more games. It may have been harder to do, but the ability to do so was still there and it probably did help some people if they had a bad set at one point mentally, they could recover then tear apart the losers bracket.
2) Innovation. It somewhat ties into the whole "Greater Margin of Error" reasoning, but players could experiment with builds much better. In the current format, if you get behind even one game, we've seen it to be an uphill battle, but in the old format, if the build didn't work and you were bounced to the elimination bracket, you could take a week, analyze your build, your opponents counter and come up with a perfection for it. In the current system, players in most cases have to stick to tried and true builds if they want to succeed because they don't have the ability to make a losers bracket run and perfect different builds while at it.

Augury

United States758 Posts

October 21 2008 19:33 GMT

#26

I personally hate double elim tourneys, so I was really glad they changed it. As far as being fair and a sense of who the best player is, double elim is better, but single elim is just infinitely more exciting for me. I want games to feel like they matter. If Flash loses I want to be upset and his next match will be boring if he wins or loses, because he already lost.

R3condite

Korea (South)1541 Posts

October 21 2008 19:44 GMT

#27

removal of double elim for sure...'

sigh it's not that Savior's in a slump he's losing on purpose so that when he busts it out like a madman every1 will be like WHOA

remember blizzcon? that's only a small sampling of wat Savior will do to his enemies

Dknight

United States5223 Posts

October 21 2008 19:58 GMT

#28

I hate having these best of series not in one day. Players need to adapt from game to game, not study their opponents and memorize a counter over the course of a few days.

Piy

Scotland3152 Posts

October 21 2008 20:53 GMT

#29

Lack of a bonjwa, i.e Savior slumping

capek

United States585 Posts

October 21 2008 21:33 GMT

#30

On October 22 2008 05:53 Piy wrote:
Lack of a bonjwa, i.e Savior slumping

Currently, 52% of TL agrees with you.

Ver

United States2186 Posts

October 21 2008 21:47 GMT

#31

Removing double elim is probably the biggest factor.

iloveoov's reign started in the Trigem MSL, where was knocked in the FIRST ROUND by Nada, only to claw his way through the loser's bracket and win 3-1 against Nada and take the tournament with a 3-0 against Yellow. Unfortunately there are no records if Nada/Boxer came from the losers bracket or not.

Anyone who votes maps is clearly forgetting Savior. Reverse Temple and Longinus 2 were far worse for zerg than Colosseum and Tiamat (Savior just singlehandedly inflated their stats and certain post-Savior have no brains aside from inconsistent Luxury). Maps were not why Jaedong lost, he just isn't comparable mentally. Bisu was the same. Losing 1 MSL in his worst matchup didn't spell his collapse, but his lack of mental domination afterwards did.

d(O.o)a

Canada5066 Posts

October 21 2008 23:03 GMT

#32

Introduction of the ODT style Ro32
Devaluing the role of the Seed
Quarterfinals being played over 2 days
Removal of the double-elim format
Savior's been in a slump

These 5

IzzyCraft

United States4487 Posts

October 22 2008 00:09 GMT

#33

So apparently savior is the only one allowed to win msls one after the other?

SuperJongMan

Jamaica11586 Posts

October 22 2008 00:16 GMT

#34

Definately removal of double-elim format.
The double elim format let so many players try to re-grab a seed.
Then I guess the seed's power loss.

And yo, Ver guy - Jaedong has one of the greatest mentalities I've seen in a progamer. His era is simply more difficult than previous eras. Savior had the fortune of still playing old schoolers like Nada, Kingdom, Ra far into the brackets compared to today's top players who have surpassed the greats.

RoieTRS

United States2569 Posts

October 22 2008 00:19 GMT

#35

I blame the young 'ins being too good.

That's right.
TOO good.

DanceCommander

United States1808 Posts

October 22 2008 00:32 GMT

#36

its all saviors fault.

United States2839 Posts

October 22 2008 00:48 GMT

#37

Removal of the double-elim format

EGMachine

United States1643 Posts

October 22 2008 01:21 GMT

#38

maps r baaad

hubfub

Australia351 Posts

October 22 2008 02:32 GMT

#39

On October 21 2008 22:03 Felagund wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's the whole affair with the loser's brackets, is it not?

That is, if you lose in your first match, you're in some kind of loser's limbo, where you challenge the other losers. The top loser challenge the top winner (winner gets a free win) for the whole thing.

EDIT: Sample bracket here (from 2003 Stout MSL.)

awesome..
wow that looks complex and LONG

thunk

United States6233 Posts

October 22 2008 02:41 GMT

#40

I think that the difference in players have gotten smaller. It gets harder and harder to dominate every year and we're just in the stagnation period before new styles begin to show their worth.