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On October 09 2008 22:43 Schnake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2008 21:24 children_in_need_2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +First of all I'd like to apologize for my argument that donating nothing at all is better than donating to Child's Play. As niteReloaded pointed out, it was partly due to the fact that I wanted to put some "spice" into my post and provoke some thinking on the matter. Partly it was due to the fact I am a person who gets really emotionally worked up on moral issues and after I had spent hours researching the US health care system and checking every single hospital donated to by Child's Play, finding out they are all private, I was heated up. After a good night's rest and some distance to the topic, I think we can all agree on the fact that donating money is always better than not donating any money at all.
I regret having posted this part, because many people took it out of context and solely responded to that (flawed) part of my post. I also don't feel morally superior or am saying that I am a morally perfect person, although I try to live up to my own moral standards as much as I can. I could go into detail on that, but it would further distract from my core argument and I dont want this discussion to be about my person, or any person at all to be specific. If you think its hippocritic than so be it, but imo its no more hippocritic than critizising a politic for his actions when u sit on your comfy chair and aren't politically involved and active member of a political organization or than FakeSteve critizising progamers on powerrank. If criticism like this wouldn't be tolerated our society would be pretty backwards.
My core argument, like people as GrInq obviously have understood, is just that I think that tl.net could have done much better by spending to a more "deserving "(in lack of a better word) charity. I think the argument that this is a gaming website and thus needs to donate to a gaming related charity organization is flawed. Maybe we can relate better to a gruesome hospital stay which was made better for us when we could play on our gameboy (In fact I had such a stay in a hospital as a child). But I would be ashamed of myself If that would mean I couldn't feel more pity for someone not being born in a wealthy country and starving to death, or some immigrant child being refused proper treatment cus of uninsuredness. In fact, again like others said, a ton of people come to mind that need help more than a kid needs a videogame in a hospital. If I would not have had the chance to play a videogame as a kid in hospital because some donators decided to give it to those people, I certainly would have understood and approved of their decision when I had grewn up. In moral issues, I think we should consider ourselves humans first and foremost and not gamers.
Here is a story which probably helps further explaining my standpoint: My aunt and uncle are veterinarians. They are at the receiving end of charity coming from rich widows of their city, which pay for veterenarian bills for animals of homeless people. They told me myself that they sometimes feel bad when a homeless guy comes in and gets his dog treated, but is obviously in such a condition that he would need health treatment as well, but there isn't enough charity being spent to organizations who would finance that treatment. Obviously those old women can relate more to the poor animals than to a "bum" (in the case they dont as well donate to those organizations, which at least some of them don't im sure). In reference to this case, don't you think some doctors probably feel bad when they have to release a sick child earlier than they should, cus the coverage of the insurance or the financial funds from donations isnt enough and on the same day, they bring in a brand new xbox to a kid being lucky enough to have had a donator buy it for them on Child's Play?
In the end I think this is still awesome by tl.net, but imo tl.net also missed a huge chance to really do a glorious deed that would have shone far beyond the gaming community. Maybe some people that don't have to do anything with gaming would have said "wow look at those gamers! they even care about pressing problems in the world!".
It doesnt mean this charity auction is worth nothing at all, but it could have been worth a lot more.
PS: Manis response disappoints me. It also proves me right in my decision to stay anonymous. Cus in the end, it doesn't matter if the majority of mods think its not ban-worthy, as long as I rub one mod the wrong way, I get banned. And I think I can safely assume that no mod would risk their status and start a fight within the mods crew to resurrect a banned user or a deleted thread which they think got banned or deleted unrightfully.
PPS: For all the people flaming me and calling me a retard, maybe you should stay out of a serious discussion like this, as your obviously too immature to contribute something meaningful. You cannot rank charities in an absolute measure with regard to "relief delivered" or something like that although there definitely is a difference between saving a human being from starvation and giving a child a PSP or something comparable but these gaming devices will not only benefit one child but multiple in the future. However, I think it is perfectly justifiable that TL chose Child's Play and will give them the raised money. TL is not raising millions of dollars either, so why have lengthy discussion about this, when you could focus your energy on something else? Why can't I? When I think something crosses the boundaries from charity to luxury, why can't I say its worse than things that clearly qualify as charity? When I take it to the extreme, there could be "charity" for people who freshly got their license but can't afford a car.
Charity, in its core, is about fulfilling peoples basic needs who cant fulfill them themselves. Videogaming is NOT one of them.
In response to your last question: Because I care? Because it probably helps tl.net make the right choice next time like some posters already suggested?
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Melbourne5338 Posts
On October 09 2008 21:24 children_in_need_2 wrote: PS: Manis response disappoints me. It also proves me right in my decision to stay anonymous. Cus in the end, it doesn't matter if the majority of mods think its not ban-worthy, as long as I rub one mod the wrong way, I get banned. And I think I can safely assume that no mod would risk their status and start a fight within the mods crew to resurrect a banned user or a deleted thread which they think got banned or deleted unrightfully.
If I had the choice to ban you, I would do it because this is an inappropiate place to raise and picket on the matter. Anyone that walks into a religious gathering and starts ranting about atheism, or into a women's shelter to express views against feminism, is clearly a douchebag.
There are channels for your complaints if you honestly wanted to question the action taken by Team Liquid. A private message to Kennigit with questions and your arguments would've worked much better if you had a constructive intent unlike your chosen path of shitting on the good intentions of a community.
No-one is lying for the money, all the information about the cause is clearly availiable. People are choosing to bid on the auctions, theres no need to be a jerk about it.
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Braavos36362 Posts
i'm not even going to respond to much of your argument despite thinking a lot of it is flawed, because: if you really cared he'd know that dampening enthusiasm and discouraging people from donating to child's play and creating a shitty debate in the auction thread is the worst thing you could do.
child, you act like you are some informed person but really you're just a hypocrite. it's pretty horrible to attention whore and shit all over the spirit and intent of this thread by derailing it. that makes you worse, because you are making affirmative actions against charitable donations, rather than simply not donating.
your criticism could have been delivered more appropriately in other forms and you didn't do it, whats wrong with PM, a blog, or a thread in website feedback? that accomplishes the same goal without hurting the child's play charity. why must you continuously debate in the thread that will be linked to, that everyone will read? let's not forget you posted the same exact big reply, bumping the other thread. do we really need that? you think you're actually helping by doing this? what a joke.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I wouldn't worry too much about the effect of this topic upon the bidding or charity.
A) Who's going to read through 10 pages of forum posts? B) Who is going to read through that, someone who would have bid, and then decided not to bid? Unless they buy into the "donating to Child's Play is worse than not donating at all", something repudiated and which no one believes, the only rationale would be to donate instead to a "more deserving" charity. In which case the purpose of this auction (to bring charity to others) is fulfilled regardless.
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South Africa4316 Posts
I think there's been enough fighting about this already. It comes down to TL wanting to help a charity which they feel affiliated to, and so far almost $1400 has been raised! Hopefully we can raise that more before the end of the auction!
Iris has passed Much again with $5 :D I think if Much could keep on playing like a pimp AND winning, his would have been much higher :p
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Braavos36362 Posts
On October 09 2008 23:08 children_in_need_2 wrote: PPS: For all the people flaming me and calling me a retard, maybe you should stay out of a serious discussion like this, as your obviously too immature to contribute something meaningful. after re-reading what you said, how you said it, and your choice of venue for your criticisms, i have to agree with mani that you are a retard.
Charity, in its core, is about fulfilling peoples basic needs who cant fulfill them themselves. Videogaming is NOT one of them. so any donations for non basic needs are not charity? doctors going to africa and fixing cleft lips isn't charity? my friend works for an organization that goes into disaster areas and builds playgrounds for kids, that's not charity? teaching math for no pay in a war torn country isn't charity work? and you call others ignorant and disgusting for not being "informed."
edit: and i agree with Daigomi, we are now enforcing this, no more sidetracking
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Braavos36362 Posts
i think the blizzard front page and the korean sites are great, they are going to bring a lot of traffic here that wouldn't otherwise come =)
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next time a kid comes to sell me a lottery ticket so his football club can exist i will tell him to fuck off because there are children dying in africa.
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in fact I tried to make a thread about this first to not derail these threads but start a fresh discussion about it. Unfortunately new members aren't allowed to post threads, so I had the choice to use my real acc and get banned (like mani said) or to reply here.
If all you can think of is calling me a retard and telling me my own intents (wow, u guys must be great psychoanalysts to fully comprehend peoples motives from a forum post in the internet) despite many people found some merit in my core argument and compare building playgrounds in disastrous areas to giving videogames to kids in hospitals in the USA than yeah, Im done posting here.
Ignorance rules supreme, but I am at peace now that I have voiced what I think and have at least reached some sensible persons and made them think about the whole concept of charity.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Children_in_need, will this lecture be available on audio cassette?
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may I suggest if its possible to stagger the ending of the auctions a bit more, that way anyone who loses out on one shirt has a chance to push his cash into another shirt, thus making more money for charity.
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eBay seems to be pretty strict about auction lengths, I don't think I can do that. As it is, they'll end over the course of an hour, Xellos -> Savior -> Iris -> Much.
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On October 10 2008 05:01 Salv wrote: Children_in_need, will this lecture be available on audio cassette?
LOLLLLLLLL
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It's a really nice initiative good job.
just pm a mod next time. no need to write it here.
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Disputing the value of a donation is so tasteless... actually what i'm trying to say is STFU children_in_need and GIVE me all your SAVIOR shirts
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Nothing is black and white.
Yeah he made a mistake, but the insults aren't really neccessary. He's not a cartoon villain so you attach all the bad stuff to his name. I truly believe he was sure he was doing the right thing when he posted that and now seeing the effects of it, if he could go back in time, he wouldn't have made the post. But human pride is a delicate thing, he must try to defend himself rather than eat his own words.
It's fun to bash people but it's not that hard to understand people if you are willing to.
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On October 07 2008 07:07 Nightmarjoo wrote: STOP BIDDING ON MUCH SHIRT PLEASE, I'M POOR
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South Africa4316 Posts
Iris is now a full $50 ahead of Much. Not bad.
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