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I turn 19 tomorrow, but since TL is on the Korean time, I figure I might as well make this post today. In the province I live in, I will have every right I can have with regards to age. Under the eyes of the law, I guess that means it thinks I'm wise enough to handle those rights. So let me share with you some of my wisdom today.
The world is a funny place. The world is the only place. Living in it will be the only experience I ever have. Throughout life, I believe it is everyone's ambition to pursue pleasure, and evade pain. This is done by shaping the world around you. Moving this here and moving that there only to the end of this ambition.
Humans are funny creatures. For all the power we wield -the power to destroy, the power to create, the power to change- we are equally frail. A bump on the head can render us mentally handicapped, two days without food or sleep can leave us incapable of the simplest tasks, and a clever lie can make us hurt ourselves. Where one can kill another human, permanently damage another human, and deceive another human, one is equally capable of being both the assailant, and the victim.
When I was young, I believed whatever I wanted to believe. I believed no one wished ill upon me. I believed everyone's goal was to help me. I believed the world was a kind and gentle place. And I'll bet you did too.
Growing up, I eventually discovered through hard experiences that the world wasn't what I wanted it to be. The world was what it was. Everyone, and I mean everyone, is looking out for their self-interests alone. Our mothers, our friends, our neighbours and our leaders are all looking out for their personal agenda. Sometimes that's bad news for someone else.
All people are hedonistic, but not all people are intelligent. In fact, very few people posses a strong sense of foresight and reasoning when they make their decisions. This realisation came to me after I discovered the ladder. In the space of time before I realised so many people, including close friends, were not as intelligent as I'd been giving them credit for, I made many mistakes, and befell many losses. It came from trying to predict people constantly. I would always assess someone's motives (what I knew they thought would make them happy), and decide what the most obvious and best things were that they would do to achieve their goals. That was how I knew what people were going to do before they did things. But it only works sometimes, and because it worked for so long, I started staking more, and more important things on it. I'd decide what I was going to do based on how I predicted someone's behaviour. When things went awry and someone stopped acting how I knew they should act, I got confused. I looked for things that were wrong, I wondered if the person's goals had changed. What I finally discovered was that they had, but not really. The end goals were all the same, only one new goal was added; Which was to sit on this person's ass and do fuck all while things spiralled to shit. Essentially, this person was an idiot.
You might say that if this person found pleasure in sitting on their ass and doing nothing, then despite it being short term, they were achieving their goals. And you'd be right. But I don't believe anyone can be happy doing nothing while they watch their life go to hell. This person was avoiding the imagined pain of going out and getting things on track, and accepting the real pain of feeling helpless and doing nothing. This person was literally too stupid to pursue happiness, and avoid pain.
But this person was my really close friend. My own pursuit of pleasure involved her being around and happy in the future, so that I could rely on her. Naturally, I saw it as in line with my own interests to try to get her to pursue her own. I tried for months. Every bit of progress was destroyed the next day. Eventually she saw me as trying to bring her into the pain (of pursuing her goals) that she was avoiding. It was backlash. If she was refusing my help, I could only stop offering it. We stopped being friends, and I was distraught over the loss, my own pursuit a failure. A month without talking, and she finally spoke up. She finally seemed to realise. She apologised and agnoized over her foolishness. But I couldn't accept it. I couldn't be friends with her. It hurt, but I thought there was no point in wasting anymore time.. In giving in. Maybe I was an idiot. Maybe I feared pain where pleasure could have came. Maybe I wasn't. It was never clear. I sent her off with the best wishes I could give. I told her that it didn't matter what she'd done, as long as she learned from it she didn't need to regret it. And then we said good bye. A month later, I wanted to check up on her but she wasn't to be found. I don't know what happened to her, but I fear the worst.
She'd hurt me. She'd hurt me so many times. Not because I wanted to be her lover, no, we were only friends. But because I'd felt so betrayed when she'd whisked away our friendship. Took me for granted. I wouldn't have any of that. I'd leave her. I didn't think she'd care. I thought she'd grown tired of me and was only pursuing her pleasure. But she did. She came back for me twice. The first time I graciously welcomed her back. The second I decided she needed to learn a lesson. Not only for myself, but for her in her future friendships. When she realises that even if Jesus himself couldn't have broken them before, they could become frail and meaningless when left unattended.
It seemed that the lesson I was teaching was the lesson I was learning at the same time. The lesson that things are not as reliable as you want them to be. Things are only what you make them. Humans are only what they are. Your best friends will deceive you if they're too stupid to realise you won't put up with it, and they'll miss you when you're gone. The assumption that everyone knows what they're doing is a false one. But despite this knowledge, your actions cannot change. You cannot save someone from the consequences of their foolishness. They must learn the hard way, or not at all.
That's shit.
  
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Love the style of your writing, hopefully you will see her again in the near future as a changed/better person and your friendship can begin anew. 
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On October 08 2008 03:11 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
All people are hedonistic, but not all people are intelligent. In fact, very few people posses a strong sense of foresight and reasoning when they make their decisions. This realisation came to me after I discovered the ladder. In the space of time before I realised so many people, including close friends, were not as intelligent as I'd been giving them credit for, I made many mistakes, and befell many losses. It came from trying to predict people constantly. I would always assess someone's motives (what I knew they thought would make them happy), and decide what the most obvious and best things were that they would do to achieve their goals. That was how I knew what people were going to do before they did things. But it only works sometimes, and because it worked for so long, I started staking more, and more important things on it. I'd decide what I was going to do based on how I predicted someone's behaviour. When things went awry and someone stopped acting how I knew they should act, I got confused. I looked for things that were wrong, I wondered if the person's goals had changed. What I finally discovered was that they had, but not really. The end goals were all the same, only one new goal was added; Which was to sit on this person's ass and do fuck all while things spiralled to shit. Essentially, this person was an idiot.
You might say that if this person found pleasure in sitting on their ass and doing nothing, then despite it being short term, they were achieving their goals. And you'd be right. But I don't believe anyone can be happy doing nothing while they watch their life go to hell. This person was avoiding the imagined pain of going out and getting things on track, and accepting the real pain of feeling helpless and doing nothing. This person was literally too stupid to pursue happiness, and avoid pain.
I agree for the most part, and your post is full of good, insightful points. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that "This person was literally too stupid to pursue happiness, and avoid pain." simply because she stopped valuing her long term goals over her immediate happiness (or lack of pain). After all, she could perceive that chasing a long term goal that turns out to be unattainable would result in a net gain of pain larger than the pain accumulated by deciding to not chase that goal. In the end, one path will result in more net pain. The choice you make depends on how cynical you are. You might have more of an optimistic attitude toward her reaching her goals, but she might have a more cynical attitude, resulting in her thinking that her efforts will ultimately be futile.
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I think she killed herself, actually... She dug a hole so deep she must have hit China.
EDIT: Oop, I was wrong
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 08 2008 03:41 Mooga wrote:On October 08 2008 03:11 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
All people are hedonistic, but not all people are intelligent. In fact, very few people posses a strong sense of foresight and reasoning when they make their decisions. This realisation came to me after I discovered the ladder. In the space of time before I realised so many people, including close friends, were not as intelligent as I'd been giving them credit for, I made many mistakes, and befell many losses. It came from trying to predict people constantly. I would always assess someone's motives (what I knew they thought would make them happy), and decide what the most obvious and best things were that they would do to achieve their goals. That was how I knew what people were going to do before they did things. But it only works sometimes, and because it worked for so long, I started staking more, and more important things on it. I'd decide what I was going to do based on how I predicted someone's behaviour. When things went awry and someone stopped acting how I knew they should act, I got confused. I looked for things that were wrong, I wondered if the person's goals had changed. What I finally discovered was that they had, but not really. The end goals were all the same, only one new goal was added; Which was to sit on this person's ass and do fuck all while things spiralled to shit. Essentially, this person was an idiot.
You might say that if this person found pleasure in sitting on their ass and doing nothing, then despite it being short term, they were achieving their goals. And you'd be right. But I don't believe anyone can be happy doing nothing while they watch their life go to hell. This person was avoiding the imagined pain of going out and getting things on track, and accepting the real pain of feeling helpless and doing nothing. This person was literally too stupid to pursue happiness, and avoid pain.
I agree for the most part, and your post is full of good, insightful points. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that "This person was literally too stupid to pursue happiness, and avoid pain." simply because she stopped valuing her long term goals over her immediate happiness (or lack of pain). After all, she could perceive that chasing a long term goal that turns out to be unattainable would result in a net gain of pain larger than the pain accumulated by deciding to not chase that goal. In the end, one path will result in more net pain. The choice you make depends on how cynical you are. You might have more of an optimistic attitude toward her reaching her goals, but she might have a more cynical attitude, resulting in her thinking that her efforts will ultimately be futile.
Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I just think that doing things like that hurt more than actually trying and seeing what happens. Like... Have you ever procrastinated doing an assignment until the very last minute, and you're just dreading and dreading doing it... But really you could just do it and forget about it at any time? And the pain of actually trying is actually nothing to when you're thinking "oh god, I really don't wanna do this shit."
My point is that... Even if she thought it would have been more painful to try, I think she was wrong. Which makes her an idiot (and I use this word very loosely... I consider anyone who makes a poor decision to be an idiot at that point in time, and can admit to being an idiot as several points in my life... When you have all the information, and you just don't analyse it properly and end up making the wrong decision).
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On October 08 2008 03:11 PsycHOTemplar wrote:When I was young, I believed whatever I wanted to believe. I believed no one wished ill upon me. I believed everyone's goal was to help me. I believed the world was a kind and gentle place. And I'll bet you did too.
There's a book I read once, it's a coming of age story and called This Boy's Life by Tobias Wolff. Anyways there's one quotation it that I remember clearly and you reminded me of.
"When we are green, still half-created, we believe that our dreams are rights, that the world is disposed to act in our best interests, and that falling and dying are for quitters. We live on the innocent and monstrous assurance that we alone, of all people ever born, have a special arrangement whereby we will be allowed to stay green forever."
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On October 08 2008 05:27 Not_Computer wrote:
happy birthday
On October 08 2008 03:48 Raithed wrote:
h4pp1 burfd41
On October 08 2008 06:22 d(O.o)a wrote:
happy birthday
Thanks
Interesting quote, Straylight :O
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On October 08 2008 03:11 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
When I was young, I believed whatever I wanted to believe. I believed no one wished ill upon me. I believed everyone's goal was to help me. I believed the world was a kind and gentle place. And I'll bet you did too.
Learned in psychology that this is the just-world phenomenon. However, I don't remember ever thinking this way.
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Scooby doo can doo doo.
but jimmy carter, is smarter.
Unrelated: You've given me alot to think about.
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United States17042 Posts
Happy birthday.
Everyone can only try their best. It's towards what that you have to think about and understand. But everyone tries their best. Even better, most people don't try to hurt other people needlessly.
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I was worried this thread would die to "COUNT UP TO POST 1000 LOL." Pleasantly mistaken, on this, the day of my actual birthday 
Learned in psychology that this is the just-world phenomenon. However, I don't remember ever thinking this way.
Well, I know that when I was young, my older brother would hit me and that wasn't any fun, but I never believed he was going to kill me, and I know that if a tough situation, I would turn to him and expect him to help (without doubt). And I mean... Kids have to be taught not to trust strangers. The message is relayed constantly in school to young kids so that we can minimize child abductions... But even then, when I was little, it was just an arbitrary rule to me, that I followed without question. "You know not to get in a car with a stranger right?" "YUP! :D I'M SMART! S-M-A-R-T!" It was much later before I think I ever realised exactly why it's a bad idea.
Everyone can only try their best. It's towards what that you have to think about and understand. But everyone tries their best. Even better, most people don't try to hurt other people needlessly.
I don't know. I think "trying ones best" is almost a subjective phrase in this context. I think people sometimes give up on themselves, and stop even pursuing their dreams because they don't even want to try. They've already decided they're impossible, when they know that's just a lie they've told themselves so they don't have to face an only possible failure (which, even as a failure, tends to open up other windows of opportunity). I don't want to give specific details and events related to the girl I talked about in the OP, but I can tell you right now that you would agree they were absurd. Literally as lazy as not wanting to ask someone a question.
To the latter half of your post.. I think maybe that's right, but it's not a very powerful statement. Needlessly means... You wouldn't even get pleasure from hurting the person.. So really from the perspective of the person who could hurt that person.. It's a waste of time that takes away from other pursuits that would grant them pleasure.
However, that reminds me about an interesting quote regarding human nature. It goes "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." While I don't believe anyone has ever truly had absolute power, I think that the varying degrees of power grant equal degrees of corruption, where corruption can be defined as betrayal of the social contract (that imaginary idea that everyone agrees "If you don't hurt me, I won't hurt you; If you don't steal from me, I won't steal from you.") When suddenly the people around you CAN'T hurt you, even if they wanted to, you have much less reason not to hurt them. In fact, they only obstacle I can think of to hurting them, is that you might desire genuine love from the people around you, if which case you'd still be hurting yourself if you hurt them.
I think you can see this reflected clearly in corporations that exploit cheap labour. The head honchos who decide that they can make more money if they just screw some poor people over in a country far away have a nearly absolute power in this respect. They will never see the faces of the workers they hurt, and the workers will never know them either. No respect can be lost, and only money and more power can be gained. Thus it's an easy hedonistic choice to screw over the poor people. The only thing stopping you will be if the public in your own country discovers and disapproves of what you're doing, and they start throwing tomatoes at your car or something. But otherwise, these powerful men of corporations have been corrupted and become ignorant of the social contract, at least with respect to people they'll never see.
I think it takes a very deviant mind to be uncorrupted by power. Or at least a mind that finds pleasure and happiness in spreading pleasure and happiness. It's this idea that has to make one wonder if they had absolute power, could they resist corruption? Right know, my mind tells me that I think I could. That either means I'm a deviant, or a naive fool.
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On October 08 2008 03:11 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
When I was young, I believed whatever I wanted to believe. I believed no one wished ill upon me. I believed everyone's goal was to help me. I believed the world was a kind and gentle place. And I'll bet you did too.
No, I dont think I ever thought that way. I have never been under the impression the world is a kind and gentle place. There have always been people wishing ill on me or trying to get in the way of my fun/ruining my good time. I definately never thought people's goals were to help me. I dont see how you could get to age 5 and still think this way.
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Happy birthday
I've had the same kind of perspective growing up, that deep down inside we are all capable, altruistic, and equal individuals. The world was a fair ground, and people got what they deserved.
However through the course of time, I have come to the same unfair conclusion, that there are boundaries drawn from the day we we're born, and the randomized generators calculate at absurd integers.
Funny, how in Kindergarten we're taught to dream, talk about being president, professional athletes, and being the richest person in the word. Some of us with the righteous inhibitions of becoming the fireman,policeman, the doctor, the lawyer, and the overall defender of all that is good and just in the world. Through this, we perceive this simplistic golden embodiment of truth, always work hard and be a good person, end of the line.
But as we progress through middle and high school, we're giving the inclination, hints from each passing year, that for the most of us, the fantasized world is all but total and complete fabrication. We start to develop "realistic goals" and things that are in grasp, numbers and letters to place our worth in society. This destroys many peoples' original inhibitions, their unwarranted egos, they sidestep out of the competition, disillusioned of their aspects and turn elsewhere, whether a lesser, closer goal or none at all, however at the same time, helping many undeserved as well, as they develop something only maligned, corrupted.
Well, from my perspective anyways, as I've seen otherwise talented individuals come crashing down and inevitably becoming a useless sloth. Short-term pleasures are everywhere, the simple joy of idling and modern entertainment all too tempting for the belittled I suppose. I think its become a stereotypical lifestyle in modern America, but maybe perhaps modernization as a whole. No longer the hunter and gatherer or the warriors protecting villages, when you can all do it from a walk to your refrigerator or enjoy pleasures just from the flick of a button, we just seemed to satisfied.
But there are times, when I compare myself to others, and I treat people most on the plane as I am. For example, I have a 4.0 gpa at my community college, but I do not consider myself intelligently superior than the peers around me. In fact, I am an average moron just like any soccer mom or pot-head jock that walks through this place. I just so happen to work harder than they did, and for that, although I find them capable as I am, I feel superior in the sense that I worked harder than they are, and that the lot are just lazier, making imaginary limitations for themselves. It is harsh criticism, possibly egotistical, but that cycle of nothingness is something I've loathed since I was a child, having been living with an incredibly lazy father for the early part of my life. Or sometimes I just tell myself, I'm at a fucking cc for christ's sake, the cesspool of academic frontiers. (Hell at least I'm saving money though.)
I also have a close friend who is a near replica of the person mentioned. I found him utterly intolerable and nearly threw him from my life. In fact, I lent money to this individual, knowing he wouldn't pay me back and letting him lie straight in front of me, as he sullied his existence meandering his dirty apartment fucking random girls and doing nothing all day in his pizza box and plastic cavern. But he is a childhood friend, had suffered a death similar to my experiences, and I simply perceived it as a temporary phase of his life. That if I were in his conditions, his emotional state, it would be very possible I would be just as weak, and reluctant to face the pain. It was then I set up an intervention with him, and forcefully put him out of his environment, and made him work out his life over again. He was angry and egocentric, toiling at my attempts to put him in a greater setting for life. But just 2 days later, he had called me crying in his unusual tone.
I agreed to his conditions of paying back to me, and in 2 months, he was working for UPS day in and out, paying me in short, small amounts. However I do not talk often with him, nor feel the same connection, as I still feel a bit of anger towards him, but he came out of his loop, his corruption, and that is worth looking a 2nd shot. I suppose a bit of faith in our capacity came back, but its not a guarantee if he'll go back again, or if he's slipping now.
But when it comes to pain and pleasure, I have a slightly different way of apprehending it. In fact, I've purposely put myself through greater amounts of stress and suffering not out of masochism, but to find greater appreciation to all the smaller, near insignificant things in life. Sort of this measurement for me, to get those incentives to get out there, motivation to try harder the next and further. Superficial and short-term pleasures is something I avoid, because once we're in the loop, seems so hard to get out of, and in a rather despicable manner at it too. There are exceptions, people with enough control, but seeing individuals collapse into that fear and indulgences is too much.
Its a bit off topic from your relationship and the social contract mentioned, but I felt like posting some rambles here, hopefully I didn't make any contradictions.
Note: I think I should revise some of my statements mentioned, some are quite misleading, it is true that people who are successful academically have attained a worthwhile expenditure, traded off the work for greater aspects, but that does not account for the many of us. A majority of competitive students want the best schools, few get in, then the filter just draws shorter from there from jobs and opportunities, leaving many with more unfulfilled resentment, some with satisfaction, but with the unfulfilled in mind, it creates that weakness, that glass wall of impossibility.
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On October 09 2008 03:26 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2008 03:11 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
When I was young, I believed whatever I wanted to believe. I believed no one wished ill upon me. I believed everyone's goal was to help me. I believed the world was a kind and gentle place. And I'll bet you did too.
No, I dont think I ever thought that way. I have never been under the impression the world is a kind and gentle place. There have always been people wishing ill on me or trying to get in the way of my fun/ruining my good time. I definately never thought people's goals were to help me. I dont see how you could get to age 5 and still think this way.
I would say you're either a deviant, or lying to yourself. I'm inclined to believe the latter. I am indeed talking about very young children, but I would say that as far as Grade 2, most children still hold this naive view of the world. The innocence of a child, so to speak. Until you've had an experience that can change this view, I don't think you can learn otherwise. For a child born in the City of God, maybe he would learn this lesson much sooner. For many minority groups in Canada and the USA, they first learn this lesson coming home crying from their first taste of racism. I learned it too from a traumatic experience being young, but I won't go into details.
Think of the lack of self-consciousness a child has. He can have the most crooked smile in the world, and still wear it brightly. An adult with a crooked smile rarely shows it. The reason being, in my mind, that he or she is afraid. Afraid of the pain that could come from it.
I'm not specifying an age at which you learn this. I'm saying that in the beginning, this is how we start, and that one day we learn otherwise. If you learned it before you were 5, that's possible. But you didn't just come up with it all on your own. Something had to happen for you to grow.
@QuietIdiot
I think I agree with some of what you said, and disagree with others. You seem to say that everyone is equal, and that environment is the real obstacle that is created. That despite one person choosing to be a pothead, if only they'd studied hard they could be as academically successful as you. I think for a long time, I wanted to believe this too. It seemed fair, just, and politically correct. But that's essentially the point of my entire OP. The things we want to believe, and will fervently defend are argue for can be crushed by an experience that proves to us it isn't true. By new found knowledge we'd never considered or even heard of before. The fact is, genetics play a significant role in the type of person someone becomes. Environment does too, of course, but one doesn't not disclude the other. And that's a scary thought. It forces one to think about eugenics and supposed genetic purity. It makes one reflect on their own genetics and wonder if they could exist in a world of genetic purity. We're taught for so long that these ideas are horrible, and automatically wrong. We learn about WWII, and the holocaust, and see the horrors such thought once lead to. We're afraid to think about it. But one day you'll have an experience, you'll have something happen right in front of your face that makes these difficult to swallow ideas painfully obvious.
I'd like to note right now, that I do not support genocide, I'm not racist, I'm not homophobic, I'm not any of those things. What I believe, is that our genetics are so complicated and diverse, that certain genetics may guarantee weakness in one area, but still offer strength in another, that we cannot yet justify deeming anyone (almost) as genetically impure. Even those with severe genetic defects have occasionally proven themselves to be savants capable of tasks exceeding any 'normal' human being's abilities.
But back to the point... I believe that if I were to switch places with any human being on this planet, that although I'd be a different person today, I would not be the person I switched places with, and they would not be me, at least not without being a virtual genetic copy of me.
You also said that it seems to be a growing part of our culture that people are simply satisfied with walking over the to the fridge, and sitting in front of the TV. I'm not sure if you meant what I think you meant by it, but I would say that the vast majority of people who live their lives in waste like this are not satisfied, they are scared. I think that they feel helpless and depressed about their situation, and wish they could be doing more, but are afraid of change. I mean... The person in the OP that I'm talking about was not just sitting there living in waste, she was letting her life slip from under her. Over the course of time I'd known her, she hit new lows many times because she just didn't want to do anything about her situation. She didn't even maintain what she had (which is more or less at least partially satisfying), she let things get worse, even when the impending falls could be clearly seen from miles away, when the solutions were so simple.
I think that human beings are creatures who always want more and more. Losing or simply maintaining our lives is not enough. I don't measure success only in monetary or educated terms, but simply in life with friends and loved ones. There are many paths to go to find pleasure, but we have to at least take one, or we won't be happy with what 'pleasure' we've already found. I think it was the author of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," who said something like "Heaven is a never ending story, where each chapter is better than the last." Progress needs to be made, or we start feeling in a rut, and life loses meaning. It's why people have to make a conscious effort to appreciate the things they already have that they take for granted. It's just not a natural or particularly healthy mindset to have.
Gotta stay hungry, like the eye of the tiger.
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EPT
