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On December 08 2024 09:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 09:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 08 2024 08:07 Zambrah wrote:but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. The problem is that this seems to be the only way to solve our problems, the government certainly isnt going to, the healthcare industry certainly isnt going to, when people are denied systematic change then they're going to start looking for solutions outside that system. This almost definitely wouldnt have happened if the US just had universal healthcare, we very well could have when Obama had his super majority, but we didn't, and I feel pretty strongly that Id be right to say that thats because the US Healthcare lobbied very hard to prevent it. So uh, I dunno, Im kind of at a "they've brought this on themselves" point with it. We've had opportunities to do things within the system, those opportunities have never manifested real solutions, so what are people left with? I don't get what problems it solves. Unless of course, we shoot every bad person on Earth. We all live in a system that incentivizes greed over everything, you can't shoot your way out of it. Its just a case of 'next guy up' for this insurance company. I find it interesting that, in this particular CEO-meets-cement instance, plenty of people who are generally in support of the "punishment serves as a deterrent" talking point suddenly selectively choose to abandon it. Not saying you're one of those people, but I'm observing a clear trend among the apologists. Very interesting for sure.
On December 08 2024 09:58 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 09:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 08 2024 08:07 Zambrah wrote:but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. The problem is that this seems to be the only way to solve our problems, the government certainly isnt going to, the healthcare industry certainly isnt going to, when people are denied systematic change then they're going to start looking for solutions outside that system. This almost definitely wouldnt have happened if the US just had universal healthcare, we very well could have when Obama had his super majority, but we didn't, and I feel pretty strongly that Id be right to say that thats because the US Healthcare lobbied very hard to prevent it. So uh, I dunno, Im kind of at a "they've brought this on themselves" point with it. We've had opportunities to do things within the system, those opportunities have never manifested real solutions, so what are people left with? I don't get what problems it solves. Unless of course, we shoot every bad person on Earth. We all live in a system that incentivizes greed over everything, you can't shoot your way out of it. Its just a case of 'next guy up' for this insurance company. This one guy's death doesnt solve anything (I mean, I guess it might if this somehow caused healthcare reform, but odds arent good on that) but what DOES solve this? Killing important decision makers looks a lot more effective than praying Congress or Healthcare C-suite ghouls get Scrooge'd and have a moral epiphany. Surely some amount of executive fertilizer scares the callous fucks into doing something? Who knows how much, who knows if this will ever happen again, there are no clean solutions to the perverse incentives capitalism has ingrained into society. We may not want it to be true, but it looks like the whole tree of liberty refreshed with blood thing may be where we're at.
I don't think this will work as a deterrent tbh.
It'll make rich people hire more security for a while probably.
Once 5-6 CEOs get shot, you are looking at a deterrent, but then just you wait and see how the rich respond if that happens. In fact, we might actually see gun reform if that happens lol.
I can see how this is cathartic for people, and I totally get it, but that's all really.
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I mean, if youre saying, "lol we're fucked give up," then yeah I guess thats a valid view on US healthcare or the US rebalancing itself away from being dominated by the uber rich in any meaningful way
If you're saying theres some other systematic solution that would work then I'd have to call you some form of crazy at this point
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On December 08 2024 10:10 Zambrah wrote:
I mean, if youre saying, "lol we're fucked give up," then yeah I guess thats a valid view on US healthcare or the US rebalancing itself away from being dominated by the uber rich in any meaningful way
If you're saying theres some other systematic solution that would work then I'd have to call you some form of crazy at this point
The revolution, friend, the revolution.
A little more seriously, I don't think there's an active solution.
The solution is passive. You wait for this extreme version of capitalism to fall. I can't really see any other way.
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On December 08 2024 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ye first they came for the CEOs and then they came for the shareholders and then I was like oh fuck I'm Norwegian
Anyway I'm rarely a big fan of invoking slippery slope but wanton assassinations feel like a very steep and icy mountain to descend from. I'm not asking people to mourn the guy as I'm sure he was a piece of shit, twice the industry average of denied claims or whatever certainly isn't a good look when the industry average is already pretty questionable, but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. I'm honestly a fairly imaginative guy but I don't feel like I have to be to picture a future Introvert (not meant as an attack on you buddy) whataboutisming about this following some abortion doctor being murdered with some 'you guys complaining about this is rich after celebrating the murder of CEO's you're opposed to'-line (even if abortion doctors have a long history of being targeted long predating this).
I can even be like, somewhat sympathetic to the killer if it turns out he had to watch his wife and mother of his two children wither away to a treatable form of cancer that they refused to cover. As far as revenge murder motifs go, that's a pretty decent one.
But I sure as hell don't want this to become some type of precedent. I get that the rule of law might have a justifiably pretty shitty reputation in the US right now, but vigilanteism or lawless killings as a method for improving society has a shittier reputation everywhere all the time.* And yeah, when I asked that question, I basically do have a list. I mean personally I'm genuinely worried about climate change as somewhat of an existential threat, if not to me then certainly to my son and people in other regions of the world. Off we go with every CEO for a fossil fuel company everyone with private jets everyone opposed to the cause all cattle farmers oh sorry mr Guga you have to go even though I enjoy your videos cause surely you inspire beef consumption. Shit, still not there, well how about we calculate the biological footprint of everyone and set the cutoff at 4.5? That might actually do it and hey honestly a fair chance the world 200 years from now will thank us for it. The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people are making the world a worse place to be. In a way, particularly because of how we affect the environment, it takes considerable effort to live in a western country and not do that.
'Murder is wrong' is actually an axiom that I think we're well off trying to maintain and also one where I think we're well off keeping as a sort of, binary option, rather than go like 'buut I mean this guy' and try to do some type of calculus to defend it.
Again I'm not saying you have to mourn the guy.
*Maybe there are exceptions
100%
Rule of law is infinitely harder to rebuild because it's the foundation to the entire society.
the fact that we have some here on TL seeing this as a win kinda proves just how extreme the politics is becoming, I would assume we are older and more mature than a bunch of edgy gen z
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On December 08 2024 10:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 10:10 Zambrah wrote:
I mean, if youre saying, "lol we're fucked give up," then yeah I guess thats a valid view on US healthcare or the US rebalancing itself away from being dominated by the uber rich in any meaningful way
If you're saying theres some other systematic solution that would work then I'd have to call you some form of crazy at this point The revolution, friend, the revolution. A little more seriously, I don't think there's an active solution. The solution is passive. You wait for this extreme version of capitalism to fall. I can't really see any other way.
Id say this is a sign that it is failing though, killings like this that receive overwhelming public support seem like a pretty solid indicator that, at least, people are really articulating that the system is failing them
Sure its not like, the engine finally failing in the Capitalism Car, but I think the check engine light is certainly starting to shine bright
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On December 08 2024 10:04 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 09:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 08 2024 09:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 08 2024 08:07 Zambrah wrote:but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. The problem is that this seems to be the only way to solve our problems, the government certainly isnt going to, the healthcare industry certainly isnt going to, when people are denied systematic change then they're going to start looking for solutions outside that system. This almost definitely wouldnt have happened if the US just had universal healthcare, we very well could have when Obama had his super majority, but we didn't, and I feel pretty strongly that Id be right to say that thats because the US Healthcare lobbied very hard to prevent it. So uh, I dunno, Im kind of at a "they've brought this on themselves" point with it. We've had opportunities to do things within the system, those opportunities have never manifested real solutions, so what are people left with? I don't get what problems it solves. Unless of course, we shoot every bad person on Earth. We all live in a system that incentivizes greed over everything, you can't shoot your way out of it. Its just a case of 'next guy up' for this insurance company. I find it interesting that, in this particular CEO-meets-cement instance, plenty of people who are generally in support of the "punishment serves as a deterrent" talking point suddenly selectively choose to abandon it. Not saying you're one of those people, but I'm observing a clear trend among the apologists. Very interesting for sure. Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 09:58 Zambrah wrote:On December 08 2024 09:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 08 2024 08:07 Zambrah wrote:but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. The problem is that this seems to be the only way to solve our problems, the government certainly isnt going to, the healthcare industry certainly isnt going to, when people are denied systematic change then they're going to start looking for solutions outside that system. This almost definitely wouldnt have happened if the US just had universal healthcare, we very well could have when Obama had his super majority, but we didn't, and I feel pretty strongly that Id be right to say that thats because the US Healthcare lobbied very hard to prevent it. So uh, I dunno, Im kind of at a "they've brought this on themselves" point with it. We've had opportunities to do things within the system, those opportunities have never manifested real solutions, so what are people left with? I don't get what problems it solves. Unless of course, we shoot every bad person on Earth. We all live in a system that incentivizes greed over everything, you can't shoot your way out of it. Its just a case of 'next guy up' for this insurance company. This one guy's death doesnt solve anything (I mean, I guess it might if this somehow caused healthcare reform, but odds arent good on that) but what DOES solve this? Killing important decision makers looks a lot more effective than praying Congress or Healthcare C-suite ghouls get Scrooge'd and have a moral epiphany. Surely some amount of executive fertilizer scares the callous fucks into doing something? Who knows how much, who knows if this will ever happen again, there are no clean solutions to the perverse incentives capitalism has ingrained into society. We may not want it to be true, but it looks like the whole tree of liberty refreshed with blood thing may be where we're at. I don't think this will work as a deterrent tbh. It'll make rich people hire more security for a while probably. Once 5-6 CEOs get shot, you are looking at a deterrent, but then just you wait and see how the rich respond if that happens. In fact, we might actually see gun reform if that happens lol. I can see how this is cathartic for people, and I totally get it, but that's all really.
Imagine if gun reform is in fact another consequence. Catching two birds with one stone. I wouldn't argue against that.
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At the end i feel we are always having the same discussion, which is whether or not it’s worth believing in liberal democracy, in the rule of law, in the very imperfect society we live in, or whether all bets are off, and we just go straight into civil war and violent revolution, where you win arguments by gunning down the baddies.
I hear that lots of us here believe that there is nothing to save in the current system. The question i have is whether any of you would be ready to face the consequences of the abandonment of every principles or societies are based upon. Because well. It’s very easy to talk Revolution on a gaming forum.
I personally still prefer to know that we are not ok with executing people in the street even when we think they are absolutely terrible. Because as Drone mentioned, many of us are probably on the kill list of someone. You took the plane too many times and ate quite a few too many steaks last year, you are destroying the planet, you gotta go. Or your girlfriend had an abortion. Or whatever some lunatic might find that makes you a criminal in their eyes.
America is super broken but honestly the first reason for it, before capitalism, corruption or corporate greed is its cult of violence. Want to make the country a better place, start by stopping to believe that murdering the bad guy is the way forward to build a better world.
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Northern Ireland23314 Posts
On December 08 2024 10:17 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ye first they came for the CEOs and then they came for the shareholders and then I was like oh fuck I'm Norwegian
Anyway I'm rarely a big fan of invoking slippery slope but wanton assassinations feel like a very steep and icy mountain to descend from. I'm not asking people to mourn the guy as I'm sure he was a piece of shit, twice the industry average of denied claims or whatever certainly isn't a good look when the industry average is already pretty questionable, but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. I'm honestly a fairly imaginative guy but I don't feel like I have to be to picture a future Introvert (not meant as an attack on you buddy) whataboutisming about this following some abortion doctor being murdered with some 'you guys complaining about this is rich after celebrating the murder of CEO's you're opposed to'-line (even if abortion doctors have a long history of being targeted long predating this).
I can even be like, somewhat sympathetic to the killer if it turns out he had to watch his wife and mother of his two children wither away to a treatable form of cancer that they refused to cover. As far as revenge murder motifs go, that's a pretty decent one.
But I sure as hell don't want this to become some type of precedent. I get that the rule of law might have a justifiably pretty shitty reputation in the US right now, but vigilanteism or lawless killings as a method for improving society has a shittier reputation everywhere all the time.* And yeah, when I asked that question, I basically do have a list. I mean personally I'm genuinely worried about climate change as somewhat of an existential threat, if not to me then certainly to my son and people in other regions of the world. Off we go with every CEO for a fossil fuel company everyone with private jets everyone opposed to the cause all cattle farmers oh sorry mr Guga you have to go even though I enjoy your videos cause surely you inspire beef consumption. Shit, still not there, well how about we calculate the biological footprint of everyone and set the cutoff at 4.5? That might actually do it and hey honestly a fair chance the world 200 years from now will thank us for it. The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people are making the world a worse place to be. In a way, particularly because of how we affect the environment, it takes considerable effort to live in a western country and not do that.
'Murder is wrong' is actually an axiom that I think we're well off trying to maintain and also one where I think we're well off keeping as a sort of, binary option, rather than go like 'buut I mean this guy' and try to do some type of calculus to defend it.
Again I'm not saying you have to mourn the guy.
*Maybe there are exceptions 100% Rule of law is infinitely harder to rebuild because it's the foundation to the entire society. the fact that we have some here on TL seeing this as a win kinda proves just how extreme the politics is becoming, I would assume we are older and more mature than a bunch of edgy gen z
What is the purpose of laws? They’re meant to map out some kind of moral system, as well as a practical component in keeping things running smoothly, arbitrating disputes, and obviously preventing folks beating or shooting people.
If that fabric starts breaking down it’s not exactly desirable, but equally it’s indicative that people’s perception of legitimate under the law systems is that actually they’re not especially morally legitimate.
This idea that the rule of law is the bedrock of society is arse backwards, laws stem from whatever values said society holds first.
I don’t think people here are immature edgy gen Z folks, they just don’t agree with your outlook here.
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On December 08 2024 10:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
At the end i feel we are always having the same discussion, which is whether or not it’s worth believing in liberal democracy, in the rule of law, in the very imperfect society we live in, or whether all bets are off, and we just go straight into civil war and violent revolution, where you win arguments by gunning down the baddies.
I hear that lots of us here believe that there is nothing to save in the current system. The question i have is whether any of you would be ready to face the consequences of the abandonment of every principles or societies are based upon. Because well. It’s very easy to talk Revolution on a gaming forum.
I personally still prefer to know that we are not ok with executing people in the street even when we think they are absolutely terrible. Because as Drone mentioned, many of us are probably on the kill list of someone. You took the plane too many times and ate quite a few too many steaks last year, you are destroying the planet, you gotta go. Or your girlfriend had an abortion. Or whatever some lunatic might find that makes you a criminal in their eyes.
America is super broken but honestly the first reason for it, before capitalism, corruption or corporate greed is its cult of violence. Want to make the country a better place, start by stopping to believe that murdering the bad guy is the way forward to build a better world.
Nah, its capitalism's fault.
We can keep as much of our systems as we want, but thats really up to the people in charge of the system, we wouldn't have this situation if they werent so absolutely determined to prevent things like universal healthcare.
CEO's dont have dark urges to see the death of hundreds of thousands of people, they have the dark urge to overlook those deaths for money.
Its a capitalism problem.
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Northern Ireland23314 Posts
On December 08 2024 10:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
At the end i feel we are always having the same discussion, which is whether or not it’s worth believing in liberal democracy, in the rule of law, in the very imperfect society we live in, or whether all bets are off, and we just go straight into civil war and violent revolution, where you win arguments by gunning down the baddies.
I hear that lots of us here believe that there is nothing to save in the current system. The question i have is whether any of you would be ready to face the consequences of the abandonment of every principles or societies are based upon. Because well. It’s very easy to talk Revolution on a gaming forum.
I personally still prefer to know that we are not ok with executing people in the street even when we think they are absolutely terrible. Because as Drone mentioned, many of us are probably on the kill list of someone. You took the plane too many times and ate quite a few too many steaks last year, you are destroying the planet, you gotta go. Or your girlfriend had an abortion. Or whatever some lunatic might find that makes you a criminal in their eyes.
America is super broken but honestly the first reason for it, before capitalism, corruption or corporate greed is its cult of violence. Want to make the country a better place, start by stopping to believe that murdering the bad guy is the way forward to build a better world.
The problem with America’s cult of violence is it’s rarely directed against root causes. It’s all too-often channelled into spree shootings of completely unrelated people. It often doesn’t remotely intersect into actual politically impactful violence, although of course on occasion that happens.
This isn’t remotely advocacy of such activity, just an observation. It’s pretty remarkable that in such a heavily armed country, with frequent senseless school shootings or other spree shootings, or general violence and a large dissatisfaction with healthcare that this is only happening now.
I disagree on this one, capitalism, corruption and corporate greed if unchecked beget violence if there aren’t alternative redresses possible.
We don’t know yet, we can certainly guess. I’d imagine our shooter in this instance would really have preferred whatever loved one get medical treatment than shoot someone in cold blood. Assuming that was his motivation which seems likely but unconfirmed.
As JFK memorably said, ‘Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.’
Of course ironically he was himself shot, but it’s a pretty reasonable, indeed obvious sentiment.
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On December 08 2024 10:48 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 10:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
At the end i feel we are always having the same discussion, which is whether or not it’s worth believing in liberal democracy, in the rule of law, in the very imperfect society we live in, or whether all bets are off, and we just go straight into civil war and violent revolution, where you win arguments by gunning down the baddies.
I hear that lots of us here believe that there is nothing to save in the current system. The question i have is whether any of you would be ready to face the consequences of the abandonment of every principles or societies are based upon. Because well. It’s very easy to talk Revolution on a gaming forum.
I personally still prefer to know that we are not ok with executing people in the street even when we think they are absolutely terrible. Because as Drone mentioned, many of us are probably on the kill list of someone. You took the plane too many times and ate quite a few too many steaks last year, you are destroying the planet, you gotta go. Or your girlfriend had an abortion. Or whatever some lunatic might find that makes you a criminal in their eyes.
America is super broken but honestly the first reason for it, before capitalism, corruption or corporate greed is its cult of violence. Want to make the country a better place, start by stopping to believe that murdering the bad guy is the way forward to build a better world. Nah, its capitalism's fault. We can keep as much of our systems as we want, but thats really up to the people in charge of the system, we wouldn't have this situation if they werent so absolutely determined to prevent things like universal healthcare. CEO's dont have dark urges to see the death of hundreds of thousands of people, they have the dark urge to overlook those deaths for money. Its a capitalism problem.
Its a simple reward system.
You make the most money, you get the most success.
If the most efficient way to make more money is to screw everyone over, then the person who is most willing to screw everyone over will find themselves in a position to do so.
Usually, this refers to economics only, but when you add things like healthcare into the mix the problems are obvious.
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Northern Ireland23314 Posts
On December 08 2024 10:48 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 10:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
At the end i feel we are always having the same discussion, which is whether or not it’s worth believing in liberal democracy, in the rule of law, in the very imperfect society we live in, or whether all bets are off, and we just go straight into civil war and violent revolution, where you win arguments by gunning down the baddies.
I hear that lots of us here believe that there is nothing to save in the current system. The question i have is whether any of you would be ready to face the consequences of the abandonment of every principles or societies are based upon. Because well. It’s very easy to talk Revolution on a gaming forum.
I personally still prefer to know that we are not ok with executing people in the street even when we think they are absolutely terrible. Because as Drone mentioned, many of us are probably on the kill list of someone. You took the plane too many times and ate quite a few too many steaks last year, you are destroying the planet, you gotta go. Or your girlfriend had an abortion. Or whatever some lunatic might find that makes you a criminal in their eyes.
America is super broken but honestly the first reason for it, before capitalism, corruption or corporate greed is its cult of violence. Want to make the country a better place, start by stopping to believe that murdering the bad guy is the way forward to build a better world. Nah, its capitalism's fault. We can keep as much of our systems as we want, but thats really up to the people in charge of the system, we wouldn't have this situation if they werent so absolutely determined to prevent things like universal healthcare. CEO's dont have dark urges to see the death of hundreds of thousands of people, they have the dark urge to overlook those deaths for money. Its a capitalism problem.
I call it the Circle of Childish WisdomTM.
Ask a kid if it’s good to become really rich while instituting policies that will see people die. See what they say. Easier if you have a kid on hand like me but hey
Then if you’re me you spend some of your adolescent years in the ‘actually it’s complicated yadda yadda’ on various topics.
Then, if you’re me anyhow on a whole fucking arseload of issues I just realised the ‘complexity’ was frequently nonsense, and the child’s moral instincts were right on the money.
Sometimes yes, there are mechanics at play that do make issues complicated, or that childish instinct doesn’t cut the mustard. But often not.
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I don’t know. My mum fled Argentina in the late 1970s because left wing guerillas were assassinating CEOs left, right and centre, and in response the military government was taking whoever they suspected of being remotely left wing, torturing them, stealing their babies and throwing them from airplanes in the Rio de la Plata. They killed 30000 people like that. Most of them in their 20s.
Again, it’s easy and fun to make big declarations about civil war and revolution on a starcraft forum. But this is what it looks like when, really, there is no rule of law and when murdering each other has become the norm.
Maybe you guys think it’s worth it. I don’t know.
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I mean, its not like capitalism isnt a death machine, healthcare is an obvious example, the deaths arent necessarily as gratuitous mentally, but how can anyone justify a system that incentivizes people to, effectively, torture, and kill people, including children?
Go back and find the article I linked about the poor dude who had to fight UHC for proper treatment for his ulcerative colitis, he was absolutely debilitated, what he went through would have been absolutely torturous, and thats happening at a massive scale, its not just clean painless whoopsy-daisy deaths, its companies actively choosing to deny people care, cause them to actively suffer mentally and physically, and in many cases leads to their death.
Just because these deaths fall mentally into the statistics form of indirect killing does not mean we should accept them any more than throwing people from airplanes.
And given we have tried to fix these things electorally, we have had a Democrat supermajority with a supposed intent on implementing universal healthcare, we have tried, it has been made very clear to us that universal healthcare is unacceptable despite its popularity, and its unacceptable because extremely rich people have absurd amounts of power in the US and have nigh-unchallengable power given the current state of the US.
There have been innumerable opportunities to do better, to make the changes that prevent things like this from happening, but they wont do it.
So, what is your solution?
Vote?
What happens when the elected officials meet with the lobbyist and decide to tell their constituents to fuck off?
Recall?
What happens when, once recalled, the new elected official meets those same lobbyists and whoops, decides maybe they dont feel like doing what their constituents want?
We don't have real systemic solutions to this shit, the system has been thoroughly influenced and massaged and now simply does not serve the people of the US, what the fuck are we supposed to do?
"A riot is the language of the unheard," -MLK
They could stop this if they'd put aside their overwhelming greed and listen.
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Northern Ireland23314 Posts
On December 08 2024 10:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I don’t know. My mum fled Argentina in the late 1970s because left wing guerillas were assassinating CEOs left, right and centre, and in response the military government was taking whoever they suspected of being remotely left wing, torturing them, stealing their babies and throwing them from airplanes in the Rio de la Plata. They killed 30000 people like that. Most of them in their 20s.
Again, it’s easy and fun to make big declarations about civil war and revolution on a starcraft forum. But this is what it looks like when, really, there is no rule of law and when murdering each other has become the norm.
Maybe you guys think it’s worth it. I don’t know.
So the legitimate, legal junta enacted far more violence? How many perpetrators saw the inside of a prison cell?
I don’t think many folks here want to see that kind of political violence, not even remotely.
But if the connection between general sentiment and political action can be fundamentally broken on some issues, what do you do?
There are issues that are rare in even being relatively bipartisan and consistently polling in the 60-70 range for decades.
In the crudest sense I’d rather not shoot a CEO, I’d rather them not be a cunt. Either if they’re legally compelled that way, or hey voluntarily.
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On December 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 10:17 ETisME wrote:On December 08 2024 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ye first they came for the CEOs and then they came for the shareholders and then I was like oh fuck I'm Norwegian
Anyway I'm rarely a big fan of invoking slippery slope but wanton assassinations feel like a very steep and icy mountain to descend from. I'm not asking people to mourn the guy as I'm sure he was a piece of shit, twice the industry average of denied claims or whatever certainly isn't a good look when the industry average is already pretty questionable, but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. I'm honestly a fairly imaginative guy but I don't feel like I have to be to picture a future Introvert (not meant as an attack on you buddy) whataboutisming about this following some abortion doctor being murdered with some 'you guys complaining about this is rich after celebrating the murder of CEO's you're opposed to'-line (even if abortion doctors have a long history of being targeted long predating this).
I can even be like, somewhat sympathetic to the killer if it turns out he had to watch his wife and mother of his two children wither away to a treatable form of cancer that they refused to cover. As far as revenge murder motifs go, that's a pretty decent one.
But I sure as hell don't want this to become some type of precedent. I get that the rule of law might have a justifiably pretty shitty reputation in the US right now, but vigilanteism or lawless killings as a method for improving society has a shittier reputation everywhere all the time.* And yeah, when I asked that question, I basically do have a list. I mean personally I'm genuinely worried about climate change as somewhat of an existential threat, if not to me then certainly to my son and people in other regions of the world. Off we go with every CEO for a fossil fuel company everyone with private jets everyone opposed to the cause all cattle farmers oh sorry mr Guga you have to go even though I enjoy your videos cause surely you inspire beef consumption. Shit, still not there, well how about we calculate the biological footprint of everyone and set the cutoff at 4.5? That might actually do it and hey honestly a fair chance the world 200 years from now will thank us for it. The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people are making the world a worse place to be. In a way, particularly because of how we affect the environment, it takes considerable effort to live in a western country and not do that.
'Murder is wrong' is actually an axiom that I think we're well off trying to maintain and also one where I think we're well off keeping as a sort of, binary option, rather than go like 'buut I mean this guy' and try to do some type of calculus to defend it.
Again I'm not saying you have to mourn the guy.
*Maybe there are exceptions 100% Rule of law is infinitely harder to rebuild because it's the foundation to the entire society. the fact that we have some here on TL seeing this as a win kinda proves just how extreme the politics is becoming, I would assume we are older and more mature than a bunch of edgy gen z What is the purpose of laws? They’re meant to map out some kind of moral system, as well as a practical component in keeping things running smoothly, arbitrating disputes, and obviously preventing folks beating or shooting people. If that fabric starts breaking down it’s not exactly desirable, but equally it’s indicative that people’s perception of legitimate under the law systems is that actually they’re not especially morally legitimate. This idea that the rule of law is the bedrock of society is arse backwards, laws stem from whatever values said society holds first. I don’t think people here are immature edgy gen Z folks, they just don’t agree with your outlook here.
except executing people on the street is bypassing the entire legal system and hardly the moral system anyone should support except extremists.
Not to mention he isn't even under any type of investigation (when the law actually exists))
It doesn't matter whether they agree or not, this is a simple fact. If you can't see it, chances are you better be reporting yourself to the legal system just to avoid yourself buying assassins or doing the murder yourself.
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On December 08 2024 11:25 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On December 08 2024 10:17 ETisME wrote:On December 08 2024 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ye first they came for the CEOs and then they came for the shareholders and then I was like oh fuck I'm Norwegian
Anyway I'm rarely a big fan of invoking slippery slope but wanton assassinations feel like a very steep and icy mountain to descend from. I'm not asking people to mourn the guy as I'm sure he was a piece of shit, twice the industry average of denied claims or whatever certainly isn't a good look when the industry average is already pretty questionable, but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. I'm honestly a fairly imaginative guy but I don't feel like I have to be to picture a future Introvert (not meant as an attack on you buddy) whataboutisming about this following some abortion doctor being murdered with some 'you guys complaining about this is rich after celebrating the murder of CEO's you're opposed to'-line (even if abortion doctors have a long history of being targeted long predating this).
I can even be like, somewhat sympathetic to the killer if it turns out he had to watch his wife and mother of his two children wither away to a treatable form of cancer that they refused to cover. As far as revenge murder motifs go, that's a pretty decent one.
But I sure as hell don't want this to become some type of precedent. I get that the rule of law might have a justifiably pretty shitty reputation in the US right now, but vigilanteism or lawless killings as a method for improving society has a shittier reputation everywhere all the time.* And yeah, when I asked that question, I basically do have a list. I mean personally I'm genuinely worried about climate change as somewhat of an existential threat, if not to me then certainly to my son and people in other regions of the world. Off we go with every CEO for a fossil fuel company everyone with private jets everyone opposed to the cause all cattle farmers oh sorry mr Guga you have to go even though I enjoy your videos cause surely you inspire beef consumption. Shit, still not there, well how about we calculate the biological footprint of everyone and set the cutoff at 4.5? That might actually do it and hey honestly a fair chance the world 200 years from now will thank us for it. The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people are making the world a worse place to be. In a way, particularly because of how we affect the environment, it takes considerable effort to live in a western country and not do that.
'Murder is wrong' is actually an axiom that I think we're well off trying to maintain and also one where I think we're well off keeping as a sort of, binary option, rather than go like 'buut I mean this guy' and try to do some type of calculus to defend it.
Again I'm not saying you have to mourn the guy.
*Maybe there are exceptions 100% Rule of law is infinitely harder to rebuild because it's the foundation to the entire society. the fact that we have some here on TL seeing this as a win kinda proves just how extreme the politics is becoming, I would assume we are older and more mature than a bunch of edgy gen z What is the purpose of laws? They’re meant to map out some kind of moral system, as well as a practical component in keeping things running smoothly, arbitrating disputes, and obviously preventing folks beating or shooting people. If that fabric starts breaking down it’s not exactly desirable, but equally it’s indicative that people’s perception of legitimate under the law systems is that actually they’re not especially morally legitimate. This idea that the rule of law is the bedrock of society is arse backwards, laws stem from whatever values said society holds first. I don’t think people here are immature edgy gen Z folks, they just don’t agree with your outlook here. except executing people on the street is bypassing the entire legal system and hardly the moral system anyone should support except extremists. Not to mention he isn't even under any type of investigation (when the law actually exists))It doesn't matter whether they agree or not, this is a simple fact. If you can't see it, chances are you better be reporting yourself to the legal system just to avoid yourself buying assassins or doing the murder yourself.
Wrong,
https://www.yahoo.com/news/slain-unitedhealthcare-ceo-accused-insider-164213460.html
UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was facing a lawsuit accusing him and other executives of insider trading related to an ongoing Justice Department investigation before he was fatally shot outside a New York City hotel on Wednesday.
Thompson, 50, was one of three UnitedHealth Group executives named in a class action lawsuit filed in May that accused them of dumping millions of dollars worth of stock while the company was the subject of a federal antitrust investigation, which investors say wasn’t immediately disclosed to shareholders.
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On December 08 2024 11:45 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 11:25 ETisME wrote:On December 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On December 08 2024 10:17 ETisME wrote:On December 08 2024 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ye first they came for the CEOs and then they came for the shareholders and then I was like oh fuck I'm Norwegian
Anyway I'm rarely a big fan of invoking slippery slope but wanton assassinations feel like a very steep and icy mountain to descend from. I'm not asking people to mourn the guy as I'm sure he was a piece of shit, twice the industry average of denied claims or whatever certainly isn't a good look when the industry average is already pretty questionable, but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. I'm honestly a fairly imaginative guy but I don't feel like I have to be to picture a future Introvert (not meant as an attack on you buddy) whataboutisming about this following some abortion doctor being murdered with some 'you guys complaining about this is rich after celebrating the murder of CEO's you're opposed to'-line (even if abortion doctors have a long history of being targeted long predating this).
I can even be like, somewhat sympathetic to the killer if it turns out he had to watch his wife and mother of his two children wither away to a treatable form of cancer that they refused to cover. As far as revenge murder motifs go, that's a pretty decent one.
But I sure as hell don't want this to become some type of precedent. I get that the rule of law might have a justifiably pretty shitty reputation in the US right now, but vigilanteism or lawless killings as a method for improving society has a shittier reputation everywhere all the time.* And yeah, when I asked that question, I basically do have a list. I mean personally I'm genuinely worried about climate change as somewhat of an existential threat, if not to me then certainly to my son and people in other regions of the world. Off we go with every CEO for a fossil fuel company everyone with private jets everyone opposed to the cause all cattle farmers oh sorry mr Guga you have to go even though I enjoy your videos cause surely you inspire beef consumption. Shit, still not there, well how about we calculate the biological footprint of everyone and set the cutoff at 4.5? That might actually do it and hey honestly a fair chance the world 200 years from now will thank us for it. The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people are making the world a worse place to be. In a way, particularly because of how we affect the environment, it takes considerable effort to live in a western country and not do that.
'Murder is wrong' is actually an axiom that I think we're well off trying to maintain and also one where I think we're well off keeping as a sort of, binary option, rather than go like 'buut I mean this guy' and try to do some type of calculus to defend it.
Again I'm not saying you have to mourn the guy.
*Maybe there are exceptions 100% Rule of law is infinitely harder to rebuild because it's the foundation to the entire society. the fact that we have some here on TL seeing this as a win kinda proves just how extreme the politics is becoming, I would assume we are older and more mature than a bunch of edgy gen z What is the purpose of laws? They’re meant to map out some kind of moral system, as well as a practical component in keeping things running smoothly, arbitrating disputes, and obviously preventing folks beating or shooting people. If that fabric starts breaking down it’s not exactly desirable, but equally it’s indicative that people’s perception of legitimate under the law systems is that actually they’re not especially morally legitimate. This idea that the rule of law is the bedrock of society is arse backwards, laws stem from whatever values said society holds first. I don’t think people here are immature edgy gen Z folks, they just don’t agree with your outlook here. except executing people on the street is bypassing the entire legal system and hardly the moral system anyone should support except extremists. Not to mention he isn't even under any type of investigation (when the law actually exists))It doesn't matter whether they agree or not, this is a simple fact. If you can't see it, chances are you better be reporting yourself to the legal system just to avoid yourself buying assassins or doing the murder yourself. Wrong, https://www.yahoo.com/news/slain-unitedhealthcare-ceo-accused-insider-164213460.htmlShow nested quote +UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was facing a lawsuit accusing him and other executives of insider trading related to an ongoing Justice Department investigation before he was fatally shot outside a New York City hotel on Wednesday.
Thompson, 50, was one of three UnitedHealth Group executives named in a class action lawsuit filed in May that accused them of dumping millions of dollars worth of stock while the company was the subject of a federal antitrust investigation, which investors say wasn’t immediately disclosed to shareholders.
Good to know, so he was executed before the legal system actually completed its due.
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On December 07 2024 23:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2024 20:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For the people supporting this, feel like compiling a list of jobs/positions in companies that are bad enough to justify being shot for doing?
*note that i recognize that being indifferent (this was just one guy being murdered and 170k people die every day and many of those deaths are certainly more tragic than this one) is an entirely different beast from being supportive.
I’ll play. HR people/company lawyers/religious elders that target the victims of sexual abuse for coming forwards rather than the perpetrators can get on the list. Corrupt cops. Police union chiefs who protect corrupt cops which, as I understand it, is all of them. Essentially the problem is the perverse incentives of capitalism. What we want is the profit motive to encourage a company to minimize their sexual harassment by applying penalties to companies doing sexual harassment. The big brain play is to not hire sexual predators and to have a strong culture against them. The galaxy brain play is to not get caught. What we want is a profit motive to drive insurance companies to provide medicine at the lowest cost. The big brain play is bulk buying, cost effectiveness studies etc. The galaxy brain play is to switch the medicine out with low cost sugar pills.
You forgot accountants, who help people avoid paying taxes, which results in lack of money for various progressive initiatives, also teachers who accept jobs at private schools, rather than teaching people pro bono, and a greedy baker who expects to be paid for the bread he makes.
On December 08 2024 10:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 10:10 Zambrah wrote:
I mean, if youre saying, "lol we're fucked give up," then yeah I guess thats a valid view on US healthcare or the US rebalancing itself away from being dominated by the uber rich in any meaningful way
If you're saying theres some other systematic solution that would work then I'd have to call you some form of crazy at this point The revolution, friend, the revolution. A little more seriously, I don't think there's an active solution. The solution is passive. You wait for this extreme version of capitalism to fall. I can't really see any other way.
Actually you got it right first time. Your passive solution is simply impossible.
Edit: some typos/comas
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On December 08 2024 11:56 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2024 11:45 Zambrah wrote:On December 08 2024 11:25 ETisME wrote:On December 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On December 08 2024 10:17 ETisME wrote:On December 08 2024 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ye first they came for the CEOs and then they came for the shareholders and then I was like oh fuck I'm Norwegian
Anyway I'm rarely a big fan of invoking slippery slope but wanton assassinations feel like a very steep and icy mountain to descend from. I'm not asking people to mourn the guy as I'm sure he was a piece of shit, twice the industry average of denied claims or whatever certainly isn't a good look when the industry average is already pretty questionable, but we really can't be like 'yeah this seems like a good way to solve our problems'. I'm honestly a fairly imaginative guy but I don't feel like I have to be to picture a future Introvert (not meant as an attack on you buddy) whataboutisming about this following some abortion doctor being murdered with some 'you guys complaining about this is rich after celebrating the murder of CEO's you're opposed to'-line (even if abortion doctors have a long history of being targeted long predating this).
I can even be like, somewhat sympathetic to the killer if it turns out he had to watch his wife and mother of his two children wither away to a treatable form of cancer that they refused to cover. As far as revenge murder motifs go, that's a pretty decent one.
But I sure as hell don't want this to become some type of precedent. I get that the rule of law might have a justifiably pretty shitty reputation in the US right now, but vigilanteism or lawless killings as a method for improving society has a shittier reputation everywhere all the time.* And yeah, when I asked that question, I basically do have a list. I mean personally I'm genuinely worried about climate change as somewhat of an existential threat, if not to me then certainly to my son and people in other regions of the world. Off we go with every CEO for a fossil fuel company everyone with private jets everyone opposed to the cause all cattle farmers oh sorry mr Guga you have to go even though I enjoy your videos cause surely you inspire beef consumption. Shit, still not there, well how about we calculate the biological footprint of everyone and set the cutoff at 4.5? That might actually do it and hey honestly a fair chance the world 200 years from now will thank us for it. The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people are making the world a worse place to be. In a way, particularly because of how we affect the environment, it takes considerable effort to live in a western country and not do that.
'Murder is wrong' is actually an axiom that I think we're well off trying to maintain and also one where I think we're well off keeping as a sort of, binary option, rather than go like 'buut I mean this guy' and try to do some type of calculus to defend it.
Again I'm not saying you have to mourn the guy.
*Maybe there are exceptions 100% Rule of law is infinitely harder to rebuild because it's the foundation to the entire society. the fact that we have some here on TL seeing this as a win kinda proves just how extreme the politics is becoming, I would assume we are older and more mature than a bunch of edgy gen z What is the purpose of laws? They’re meant to map out some kind of moral system, as well as a practical component in keeping things running smoothly, arbitrating disputes, and obviously preventing folks beating or shooting people. If that fabric starts breaking down it’s not exactly desirable, but equally it’s indicative that people’s perception of legitimate under the law systems is that actually they’re not especially morally legitimate. This idea that the rule of law is the bedrock of society is arse backwards, laws stem from whatever values said society holds first. I don’t think people here are immature edgy gen Z folks, they just don’t agree with your outlook here. except executing people on the street is bypassing the entire legal system and hardly the moral system anyone should support except extremists. Not to mention he isn't even under any type of investigation (when the law actually exists))It doesn't matter whether they agree or not, this is a simple fact. If you can't see it, chances are you better be reporting yourself to the legal system just to avoid yourself buying assassins or doing the murder yourself. Wrong, https://www.yahoo.com/news/slain-unitedhealthcare-ceo-accused-insider-164213460.htmlUnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was facing a lawsuit accusing him and other executives of insider trading related to an ongoing Justice Department investigation before he was fatally shot outside a New York City hotel on Wednesday.
Thompson, 50, was one of three UnitedHealth Group executives named in a class action lawsuit filed in May that accused them of dumping millions of dollars worth of stock while the company was the subject of a federal antitrust investigation, which investors say wasn’t immediately disclosed to shareholders. Good to know, so he was executed before the legal system actually completed its due.
He was a rich man he was never going to get what was coming to him by way of the legal system lmao
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EPT
