|
btw even ~90-95% of GM lvl play is nowhere close to highest lvl play (up until you reach top 5 or top 10 GM where the top players are at), balance decisions should always be based around highest lvl play because that's where the game is played with the least amount of error so it's the most accurate reflection of what the game really looks like
you can even make this argument for the top 1~3 of each race vs the rest of the pro field but at a certain range i think it's fine to factor in midd/lower pro lvl games (to evaluate stuff like ease of execution vs strength of builds/units), that said their weighting for actual balance should also be less than games from top 1/2/3 of each race (deciding whether to mainly factor in play from top 1 or top 3 or top 5 for balance really depends on the strength/dominance of those players)
pretty simple concept but then incentives/human nature comes into play so u end up losing sight of what really matters
|
On October 30 2024 03:06 TT1 wrote:
btw even ~90-95% of GM lvl play is nowhere close to highest lvl play (up until you reach top 5 or top 10 GM where the top players are at), balance decisions should always be based around highest lvl play because that's where the game is played with the least amount of error so it's the most accurate reflection of what the game really looks like
you can even make this argument for the top 1~3 of each race vs the rest of the pro field but at a certain range i think it's fine to factor in midd/lower pro lvl games (to evaluate stuff like ease of execution vs strength of builds/units), that said the weighting on balance should also be less than games from top 1/2/3 of each race (factoring in play from top 1 or top 3 or top 5 really depends on the strength/dominance of the top players)
pretty simple concept but then bad incentives/human nature comes into play so u end up losing sight of what really matters
I guess this boils down to whether you balance for the best possible viewing experience or the best possible playing experience. If the latter, those 3 players per race can get fucked. If the former, those 3 possible players are the only ones that matter. And not in the sense that their playing experience has to be ez breezy, but that they have to be balanced.
I'd much prefer they balance the play of the 99.9%, and the 0.1% will sort themselves out. The casters and viewers will make up their own narrative anyway.
|
On October 30 2024 04:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2024 03:06 TT1 wrote:
btw even ~90-95% of GM lvl play is nowhere close to highest lvl play (up until you reach top 5 or top 10 GM where the top players are at), balance decisions should always be based around highest lvl play because that's where the game is played with the least amount of error so it's the most accurate reflection of what the game really looks like
you can even make this argument for the top 1~3 of each race vs the rest of the pro field but at a certain range i think it's fine to factor in midd/lower pro lvl games (to evaluate stuff like ease of execution vs strength of builds/units), that said the weighting on balance should also be less than games from top 1/2/3 of each race (factoring in play from top 1 or top 3 or top 5 really depends on the strength/dominance of the top players)
pretty simple concept but then bad incentives/human nature comes into play so u end up losing sight of what really matters I guess this boils down to whether you balance for the best possible viewing experience or the best possible playing experience. If the latter, those 3 players per race can get fucked. If the former, those 3 possible players are the only ones that matter. And not in the sense that their playing experience has to be ez breezy, but that they have to be balanced. I'd much prefer they balance the play of the 99.9%, and the 0.1% will sort themselves out. The casters and viewers will make up their own narrative anyway.
viewers and players have a symbiotic relationship but if the game isn't balanced in a way (playability-wise) that attracts and retains top lvl players then the game will eventually fizzle and die out, so basically you'd be updating the game for 99.9% of a endlessly decreasing viewer base
ppl tune in to watch the highest skill players play the game, star power/elite lvl talent is a big draw, look at any real sport
if you balance for entertainment/viewability and top end players leave the game (top players play for competition so if the game isn't fair/balanced then they'll feel like things are out of their control and won't stick around) and if the game doesn't attract talented new players (unlikely to happen unless there's a sugar rush of new money but that's not a sustainable long term strategy anyways) then it'll just turn into lower lvl competition between the ppl who decided to stick around.. it just doesn't have the same appeal
for anyone who understands what real competition is that certainly isn't it, it would turn into placeholder competition more than real competition
|
On October 30 2024 04:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2024 03:06 TT1 wrote:
btw even ~90-95% of GM lvl play is nowhere close to highest lvl play (up until you reach top 5 or top 10 GM where the top players are at), balance decisions should always be based around highest lvl play because that's where the game is played with the least amount of error so it's the most accurate reflection of what the game really looks like
you can even make this argument for the top 1~3 of each race vs the rest of the pro field but at a certain range i think it's fine to factor in midd/lower pro lvl games (to evaluate stuff like ease of execution vs strength of builds/units), that said the weighting on balance should also be less than games from top 1/2/3 of each race (factoring in play from top 1 or top 3 or top 5 really depends on the strength/dominance of the top players)
pretty simple concept but then bad incentives/human nature comes into play so u end up losing sight of what really matters I guess this boils down to whether you balance for the best possible viewing experience or the best possible playing experience. If the latter, those 3 players per race can get fucked. If the former, those 3 possible players are the only ones that matter. And not in the sense that their playing experience has to be ez breezy, but that they have to be balanced. I'd much prefer they balance the play of the 99.9%, and the 0.1% will sort themselves out. The casters and viewers will make up their own narrative anyway.
I don't think those things are mutually exclusive at all, in fact I don't think balancing around the 99,9% of people is even a sensible thing.
First of all, matchmaking exists so the game below GM level will always be balanced because you will always have a 50% chance of winning. Second, the changes that are implemented to balance the top 0,1% won't even have any impact below pro level because as PiG said, at that level it makes no difference if Immortals for example are 25 minerals cheaper because they float 700 minerals anyway. Low-level players don't lose because of balance but because of skill.
At that level, to quote PiG again, it's just about a perception if the game is balanced or not, and not on actual balance because balance makes no difference there anyway. And the perception whether the game is balanced or not is based on pro play where the players make the least amount of mistakes.
|
On October 30 2024 05:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2024 04:35 Acrofales wrote:On October 30 2024 03:06 TT1 wrote:
btw even ~90-95% of GM lvl play is nowhere close to highest lvl play (up until you reach top 5 or top 10 GM where the top players are at), balance decisions should always be based around highest lvl play because that's where the game is played with the least amount of error so it's the most accurate reflection of what the game really looks like
you can even make this argument for the top 1~3 of each race vs the rest of the pro field but at a certain range i think it's fine to factor in midd/lower pro lvl games (to evaluate stuff like ease of execution vs strength of builds/units), that said the weighting on balance should also be less than games from top 1/2/3 of each race (factoring in play from top 1 or top 3 or top 5 really depends on the strength/dominance of the top players)
pretty simple concept but then bad incentives/human nature comes into play so u end up losing sight of what really matters I guess this boils down to whether you balance for the best possible viewing experience or the best possible playing experience. If the latter, those 3 players per race can get fucked. If the former, those 3 possible players are the only ones that matter. And not in the sense that their playing experience has to be ez breezy, but that they have to be balanced. I'd much prefer they balance the play of the 99.9%, and the 0.1% will sort themselves out. The casters and viewers will make up their own narrative anyway. I don't think those things are mutually exclusive at all, in fact I don't think balancing around the 99,9% of people is even a sensible thing. First of all, matchmaking exists so the game below GM level will always be balanced because you will always have a 50% chance of winning. Second, the changes that are implemented to balance the top 0,1% won't even have any impact below pro level because as PiG said, at that level it makes no difference if Immortals for example are 25 minerals cheaper because they float 700 minerals anyway. Low-level players don't lose because of balance but because of skill. At that level, to quote PiG again, it's just about a perception if the game is balanced or not, and not on actual balance because balance makes no difference there anyway. And the perception whether the game is balanced or not is based on pro play where the players make the least amount of mistakes.
That isn't really true. Sure, everything is worse at low levels, as I already pointed out, but some things do affect balance at low levels. Disruptor radius is kinda important. Or Broodling duration. Or whatever the hell they want to do with cyclones on any day of the week. Or spore crawlers doing a bajillion damage.
Obviously pros are going to take advantage of that much more than a random diamond league player. But that doesn't mean the diamond league player won't hate it if they cannot possibly beat blink stalkers from their fellow diamond league players (or swarmhosts or whatever). Balance isn't irrelevant at lower levels just because play is not as refined.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
