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CicadaSC
United States2014 Posts
On October 24 2024 05:23 Blitzball04 wrote: Balance council should be Rotti, Harstem, Pig, and zombiegrub Everyone happy I wouldn't be against it 😅 but as someone said before it'd be nice if Microsoft took over and actually made changes based on internal data. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
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Kantuva
Uruguay211 Posts
On October 24 2024 04:25 BisuDagger wrote: I’m curious what the happiness ratio is in retrospect of the last few years of balance changes. So far I think they’ve done better than worse. We are doing just fine tbh Yes, Toss got overly shafted I feel. But they tend to me more mellow when arguing, and this is not a joke, they legit are, I blame it mostly in PTSD from all the collective bullying they have received in these last few decades | ||
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Athenau
590 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
But in seriousness I think the fundamental idea of a balance council is fine, it just needs some process refinement. You need some kind of overall arbiter(s) with sufficient knowledge to make final calls, sift the good ideas from the bad etc etc We’ve got some good ideas, good changes, creative tweaks mixed with some bad ones. Sometimes more good than bad, sometimes more bad than good. Or patches that have stated intentions and a bunch of changes that seemingly contradict the intent. I don’t think it’s a fundamentally flawed idea, it just needs some figures who can do that filtering I don’t think you really need more transparency and openness or whatever, just a better internal process | ||
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
On October 25 2024 07:46 WombaT wrote: WombaT’s PatchTM is great, I won’t hear otherwise! But in seriousness I think the fundamental idea of a balance council is fine, it just needs some process refinement. You need some kind of overall arbiter(s) with sufficient knowledge to make final calls, sift the good ideas from the bad etc etc We’ve got some good ideas, good changes, creative tweaks mixed with some bad ones. Sometimes more good than bad, sometimes more bad than good. Or patches that have stated intentions and a bunch of changes that seemingly contradict the intent. I don’t think it’s a fundamentally flawed idea, it just needs some figures who can do that filtering I don’t think you really need more transparency and openness or whatever, just a better internal process Wombat patch is pure trash, it’s time for you to admit it! Protoss got nerfs across the board with nothing to compensate it. Pvt was already struggling the previous patch, but this wombat patch will make it even worse. I wouldn’t be surprise to see the win rate % in the 30’s | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 25 2024 08:09 Blitzball04 wrote: Wombat patch is pure trash, it’s time for you to admit it! Protoss got nerfs across the board with nothing to compensate it. Pvt was already struggling the previous patch, but this wombat patch will make it even worse. I wouldn’t be surprise to see the win rate % in the 30’s Given this patch is seemingly awful for Protoss, and my other attempt to force my name into a thing was ‘WombaT’s Law’ which said Protoss couldn’t win a tournament if they had to face more than 2 Zergs in playoff rounds, I feel I’ve been consistent in my traitorous ways! Call me a pessimist or a masochist, or perhaps a realist | ||
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Archeon
3274 Posts
On October 23 2024 20:23 Fango wrote: With how many changes the council come out with that seem to solely exist purely because pros get frustrated playing with or against a certain feature, it's obvious the overall progress of the council won't be great. They aren't trying to make the game good, everyone is just fighting to make their own play style easier. The zerg players seem to have the best debate skills as well. But how loud or unwavering you are should not be what decides balance changes. Every patch seems to come out with 'silent buffs' to Zerg that the average player won't notice but will sneakily try to improve their winrates. For example, buffing hatcheries and spore crawlers, Zerg economy never falls behind compared to Toss and Terrain, there's no reason for this other than Zerg players gettng frustrated at worker blocks, drone snipers, bunker rushes etc Honestly economically this is a nerf for Zerg. Z needs to build way more queens than hatches and the main reason "static" Zerg-D is buffed is probably to offset the nerf to mass queen styles, which are standard in both ZvP and ZvT. I honestly think the spore buff is too big, but it pales in comparison to the massive buffs to libs, a unit they were supposed to nerf according to the patch goals. Overall I think T got buffed, Z got a wash/slight buff and P got gutted. Which is absurd if you consider current tournament results. On October 24 2024 04:25 BisuDagger wrote: I’m curious what the happiness ratio is in retrospect of the last few years of balance changes. So far I think they’ve done better than worse. Mixed bag for me. They've done some really nice and sensitive changes, they've screwed up really badly on occasion too. Overall I think some of the top performing units of well performing races should have received (heavier) nerfs years ago and apparently it's really difficult for them to straight buff P units, while they seem to have less qualms about doing so for Z/T. Overall it feels like 3/4 of their attention is on T and rarely in a critical way. Things like the cyclone change have made the game worse, eaten a ton of time and T has usages for pretty much every unit in their roster while half of P's roster is pretty garbage. Like this patch is a good example, we have a ton of T buffs with new functionalities and perhaps positive ways to change your BO. Meanwhile Z gets their main early game defensive tool nerfed (with some compensation in other areas) and P gets their main early game defensive tool removed (without compensation). | ||
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eXiledSC
Canada2 Posts
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Nagumo
Germany14 Posts
I understand that there is the need of doing Balancing not only for the Top Level Players and i know that in the lower Ranks Protoss is much more successfull but frankly, i'm really tired of watching Zergs and Terrans winning nearly every Tournament (this said as a huge Reynor Fan ^^). Just to see more Protoss in the round of 8 now and then, would be a nice and imo from an entertaining Point of view much needed "thing" to do. And that (Pro) players have any influence on these Balancing Process is imo an absolute No Go. Imo any Pro should say no to such an invitation. | ||
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Drahkn
201 Posts
On October 24 2024 05:23 Blitzball04 wrote: Balance council should be Rotti, Harstem, Pig, and zombiegrub Everyone happy That would be a big mistake | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On October 23 2024 12:20 luxon wrote: - Enormous conflicts of interest - pros are vouching for things that not only benefit their race, but their own playstyle - Politics and negotiations - if your race has more passive person championing the changes, then you will lose out to others who are more aggressive. The people unwilling to compromise are rewarded. - There is an unnamed top-level Terran who is given extreme credence to his opinions (HM has publicly said he refuses to join because of such conflict of interest, so not sure who. Clem makes sense but doesnt strike me as the type, possibly Maru or Spirit). - Lower level pro's opinions are disregarded in favor of higher level ones, even when they bring "facts and replay evidence" - The person who is in charge of the actual balance patch changes ("the referee" in the video) has a noticeable bias against protoss, which was noticed by both Dns and Showtime. Are we done with the "balance council" yet? Here is a little secret, a group of random people who don't understand game design won't make a good game. We tried it. We had Dustin "Warhound" Browder, and David "Mothership Core" Kim clowning around in WOL and HOTS and it didn't work. League was writing articles game design and exploding in popularity while they were actively doing the opposite and we watch SC2 tank. We lived through Broodlord Infestor in WOL only to get mass Swarmhosts in HOTS. I wish we could get a serious individual or team that actually follows tenets of modern game design... What is that I hear? Instant burst damage that has no counterplay and is poor design? But Widow Mines are so cool! Imagine getting people who actually understand it to create a game. | ||
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TT1
Canada10095 Posts
the game will either get fucked by mass public opinion whining or professional gamer bias (but the root of the issue is having a weak game/devs), if you can't have unbiased high lvl people controlling these things then there's nothing to be done, save some hair and just play BW | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1969 Posts
On October 25 2024 08:17 WombaT wrote: Given this patch is seemingly awful for Protoss, and my other attempt to force my name into a thing was ‘WombaT’s Law’ which said Protoss couldn’t win a tournament if they had to face more than 2 Zergs in playoff rounds, I feel I’ve been consistent in my traitorous ways! Call me a pessimist or a masochist, or perhaps a realist If I had the job I'd set us back to lair tech and 3 base blink timings. Lotv players would complain, but balance was much better in 2015. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On October 27 2024 15:14 TT1 wrote: some things never change, guys stop investing time into something that's out of your control, simple as that the game will either get fucked by mass public opinion whining or professional gamer bias (but the root of the issue is having a weak game/devs), if you can't have unbiased high lvl people controlling these things then there's nothing to be done, save some hair and just play BW As it may surprise you, not everyone like BW. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1969 Posts
On October 27 2024 23:45 Nakajin wrote: As it may surprise you, not everyone like BW. TT1 was actually half of my favorite pvp from wol. He played against VINES in a qualifier for something. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On October 27 2024 23:47 Mizenhauer wrote: TT1 was actually half of my favorite pvp from wol. He played against VINES in a qualifier for something. As most french Canadian sc2 success, it's saddly just before my time. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1969 Posts
On October 27 2024 23:50 Nakajin wrote: As most french Canadian sc2 success, it's saddly just before my time. I managed to go back and track down the game, but there's no vid of it. | ||
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