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On July 03 2024 10:50 WombaT wrote:
He clearly planned very well for various eventualities, and was a very interesting and hyped run to follow. It did feel to me that I’d rather it remain a one-off as random can feel extremely coin flippy.
Openers in both SC games are pretty optimised around racial matchups so it does make things a bit wonky with that unknown factored in.
Relied HEAVILY on decision based gameplay for sure. Well planned decisions vs the map and matchup and if he was at an advantage of disadvantage. I don't think that would have been a one off experience, unless he had really awful groups early on, his decision making at that time took him past the skill level of the individuals he as facing. Now, could he have faced a bad roll, against a bad group matchup for him, and been out? For damn sure. But I also think with lucky seeding and random rolls in other ASLs he could have made it to the finals and lost, though the RO4 is probably his on average cutoff considering the level of talent that exists in the RO4 usually. Though SOMA is probably one of the worst matchups to get to be honest, he is just so thorough in his play, you don't really get a chance to make him mess up.
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Oh come on now you're just showing a lack of understanding of gameplay. No wonder why you think those BO advantages aren't significant.
-Flash vs Rush if unscouted the BBS is at worst place equal. The difference was the decision to scout. Instead his build was interrupted, not in full effect so it isn't even a BO win.
Early pool vs anything proxy on the map is 90% win for Zerg already. The fact that he scouted the BB in the center just made it 100%. Plus, he did a 7 Pool. Of course he has to cross scout with a Drone and let the Overlord take care of one corner. Are you going to do 7 Pool and run randomly to one corner and pray the opponent's there like a noob?
We're now almost venturing to the territory where Flash builds a Depot and we'd go "Brilliant decision making and build order choice there".
- ZvZ on plasma before any sort of variance in build was made vs SOMA, soma already had supply lead, and the advantage in scouting, there was no difference, except he didn't make his Lair as early as possible.
This is an absurd comment. Just lost for words. Shows you have no clue how ZvZ functions on Plasma. What does "supply lead" in the first two minutes of a ZvZ even mean lol? Yeah let's drone up to 20 and have a "supply lead" while your opponent makes 6 speedlings on 7 drones to kill you. And what advantage in scouting does Soma have lol, the advantage of finding out which direction his death will come from? Flash had the biggest advantage someone could ever have on that map already, knowing his opponent's race. Why didn't Soma make his Lair asap? Is this a real question? Why would he when he didn't even know his opponent's race? Yep there was no difference, except for the only difference that makes you 100% lose lol.
And yes, I certainly do believe that a ZvZ where when everything about the build is equal at the point at which you scout the random player should go to the guy who plays ZvZ all the time
Yeah, and see here the prime evidence you dont understand that game. The ZvZ on Plasma is 50/50 for the first two mins or so when the only thing you do is make drones, but the moment Flash puts down his Pool and Gas first with the aim for a faster Lair, it immediately turns into 99/1 in his favor. But since you can't understand that, you think the build was still equal when Soma or Larva scouted Flash.
But the bottom line is, if you're trying to prove Flash's brilliance as offrace, you better find an example where he outclasses his opponent with skills, or he himself overcomes a disadvantage. You can't take the games in which he had a massive headstart, in some cases almost a sure win, then piled on it to get the victory.
As I said, in some games you can put a BSL player to take it from there (from the BO advantage that Flash had with Random) and he'd win comfortably. Is the BSL player as good as Flash now?
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United States9925 Posts
On July 03 2024 10:32 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 09:38 TMNT wrote:On July 03 2024 07:04 NoobSkills wrote:
I mean your last 3 comments in this thread are largely about it being only luck and BO wins right? Excuse me if I was wrong. I mean you gave credit to him rolling T, but again isn't that also luck?
Okay let's "explain" why don't you go back and look at all the ZvZ's we've had in the ASL from the top notch zergs. Then just watch the BO and look at the results. This one is the best and funniest because there isn't a massive wide variance in ZvZ very little room to grab an edge that isn't given to you. Now count how many times that BO auto win wound up being a loss. This btw isn't specifically about Flash's game you might be accurate in that one that he was indeed ahead for whatever reason, but the general concept of BO wins which simply isn't true or at least not nearly as impactful as you'd like to pretend it is.
You can't over-generalize like that. While it's true that not every BO advantage translates into a win, that statement has very little to do with Flash's games that ASL. The advantage he got from those games was huge. Like, bigger than cross spawn Nexus first, just to imagine. - For example, vs Rush he went 7 Pool against BBS. First scout. Even I can win the game from there lol. Nothing with overcoming BO disadvantage there for Rush. - The two ZvZ on Plasma are soooooo different than the usual ZvZ we see on standard maps that there's nothing to compare. Since you dont produce a single Ling on that map in ZvZ, it basically becomes who gets Mutas first will win (unless you have 100 apm, micro like a noob and forget to build overlords). And of course the Random player gets them first. You put any BSL Zerg there and they can win from there. - You want another example of not being able to overcome BO disadvantage?  Flash vs Soma on Benzene in the same series, except that this time Flash was the one at the receiving end. 3 Hatch before Pool vs 9 Pool. He typed gg. No overcoming anything here. - Then you have the two games vs Snow which were won off a hidden Nexus and Snow doing a non-build for PvP. The problem is, your original point is something like " Flash's random run is insane, he played the other races so well, even better than the players who main those races". It would have been true had Flash been at the receiving end of the BO disadvantage and overcome it with skills. But it's the opposite. He won a grand total of 1 game based on skills alone. The rest was helped massively by playing as random. He didn't show amazing Reaver or Muta micro, or insane macro as Protoss or Zerg. He played one PvZ, in which he couldn't defend Soma's 9 Pool despite the Lings going to the wrong base in the first place, forgetting to cancel the Nexus before Lings destroyed it because he failed the multitasking battle. He went full on Speedling all in vs Soma in another ZvZ (and lost), because he knew he wouldn't win a proper ZvZ on standard map. To sum up, his 3rd place as random looks impressive on paper. But when you dissect his play as offrace, it's not impressive at all. His advantage in those games from BO's and random alone were that significant? Lol? -Flash vs Rush if unscouted the BBS is at worst place equal. The difference was the decision to scout. Instead his build was interrupted, not in full effect so it isn't even a BO win. - ZvZ on plasma before any sort of variance in build was made vs SOMA, soma already had supply lead, and the advantage in scouting, there was no difference, except he didn't make his Lair as early as possible. -Flash on benzine vs soma - a full on cheese economically, not a BO win that got called out by a normal build, but an insanely greedy build that is only successful if your opponent goes hatch first. -Flash vs snow - again the decision to make the hidden nexus and play accordingly was his call. At the point of the split in builds they're near equal in terms of supply and money. Decision making. Due to that loss, snow overscouts, and then still winds up ahead with a 2base economy. He lost like 5 probes with 2 nexus it wasn't nearly as deep of a loss. The issue is that flash got to full send his army vs one small portion of snows to secure the game. And we could argue circles about the positions in these match ups, but in reality a lot of them took decision making losses outside of the affect of random or BO. Difference is these individuals have played these matchups for years and years and should have shut it down. BTW I'm not claiming Flash mastered zerg or protoss skill sets, because clearly that wasn't the case. Instead he made decision based gameplay moves when he was behind or even ahead to secure a win or attempt to do so. And yes, I certainly do believe that a ZvZ where when everything about the build is equal at the point at which you scout the random player should go to the guy who plays ZvZ all the time. And see nobody is claiming that his run showed complete mastery of P or Z, but that his run, and decision making can carry him through that far alone, despite this being his first venture into random.
These excuses for justifying why FlaSh's random run was impressive is really exposing your inexperience/lack of knowledge in Starcraft. TMNT is 100% correct. You cannot say that Plasma ZvZ is a normal ZvZ map where players don't need to open with any lings. Making even a single pair of lings puts you at a severe disadvantage.
Defending FlaSh's 3h before pool against a 9pool as "not a bo win just a greedy build" doesn't even make sense. Every game has risk when you choose a risky bo. He got caught, end of. If it were the other way around, you'd be praising FlaSh for having such a brilliant choice of build. Not really how it works.
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Im BW all opening build orders are subject to an opponent's race. random is strong because the opponent does not have the required information to select the correct build order. The opponent is always at an information disadvantage. and information is most important in BW because so many things have rock paper scissors power dynamics.
When you are random you get to select rock/paper/scissors after your opponent has already showed you that they already select paper. A late throw in rock paper scissors.
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Yay finally!
Who gives a fuck about the stupid cryptoshit anyway. I'm here for broodwar, and I could not care less about what these n00bs do on their spare time ROFL.
Welcome back FLASH! Let's GOOOOOOOO
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On July 03 2024 23:51 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 10:32 NoobSkills wrote:On July 03 2024 09:38 TMNT wrote:On July 03 2024 07:04 NoobSkills wrote:
I mean your last 3 comments in this thread are largely about it being only luck and BO wins right? Excuse me if I was wrong. I mean you gave credit to him rolling T, but again isn't that also luck?
Okay let's "explain" why don't you go back and look at all the ZvZ's we've had in the ASL from the top notch zergs. Then just watch the BO and look at the results. This one is the best and funniest because there isn't a massive wide variance in ZvZ very little room to grab an edge that isn't given to you. Now count how many times that BO auto win wound up being a loss. This btw isn't specifically about Flash's game you might be accurate in that one that he was indeed ahead for whatever reason, but the general concept of BO wins which simply isn't true or at least not nearly as impactful as you'd like to pretend it is.
You can't over-generalize like that. While it's true that not every BO advantage translates into a win, that statement has very little to do with Flash's games that ASL. The advantage he got from those games was huge. Like, bigger than cross spawn Nexus first, just to imagine. - For example, vs Rush he went 7 Pool against BBS. First scout. Even I can win the game from there lol. Nothing with overcoming BO disadvantage there for Rush. - The two ZvZ on Plasma are soooooo different than the usual ZvZ we see on standard maps that there's nothing to compare. Since you dont produce a single Ling on that map in ZvZ, it basically becomes who gets Mutas first will win (unless you have 100 apm, micro like a noob and forget to build overlords). And of course the Random player gets them first. You put any BSL Zerg there and they can win from there. - You want another example of not being able to overcome BO disadvantage? Flash vs Soma on Benzene in the same series, except that this time Flash was the one at the receiving end. 3 Hatch before Pool vs 9 Pool. He typed gg. No overcoming anything here. - Then you have the two games vs Snow which were won off a hidden Nexus and Snow doing a non-build for PvP. The problem is, your original point is something like " Flash's random run is insane, he played the other races so well, even better than the players who main those races". It would have been true had Flash been at the receiving end of the BO disadvantage and overcome it with skills. But it's the opposite. He won a grand total of 1 game based on skills alone. The rest was helped massively by playing as random. He didn't show amazing Reaver or Muta micro, or insane macro as Protoss or Zerg. He played one PvZ, in which he couldn't defend Soma's 9 Pool despite the Lings going to the wrong base in the first place, forgetting to cancel the Nexus before Lings destroyed it because he failed the multitasking battle. He went full on Speedling all in vs Soma in another ZvZ (and lost), because he knew he wouldn't win a proper ZvZ on standard map. To sum up, his 3rd place as random looks impressive on paper. But when you dissect his play as offrace, it's not impressive at all. His advantage in those games from BO's and random alone were that significant? Lol? -Flash vs Rush if unscouted the BBS is at worst place equal. The difference was the decision to scout. Instead his build was interrupted, not in full effect so it isn't even a BO win. - ZvZ on plasma before any sort of variance in build was made vs SOMA, soma already had supply lead, and the advantage in scouting, there was no difference, except he didn't make his Lair as early as possible. -Flash on benzine vs soma - a full on cheese economically, not a BO win that got called out by a normal build, but an insanely greedy build that is only successful if your opponent goes hatch first. -Flash vs snow - again the decision to make the hidden nexus and play accordingly was his call. At the point of the split in builds they're near equal in terms of supply and money. Decision making. Due to that loss, snow overscouts, and then still winds up ahead with a 2base economy. He lost like 5 probes with 2 nexus it wasn't nearly as deep of a loss. The issue is that flash got to full send his army vs one small portion of snows to secure the game. And we could argue circles about the positions in these match ups, but in reality a lot of them took decision making losses outside of the affect of random or BO. Difference is these individuals have played these matchups for years and years and should have shut it down. BTW I'm not claiming Flash mastered zerg or protoss skill sets, because clearly that wasn't the case. Instead he made decision based gameplay moves when he was behind or even ahead to secure a win or attempt to do so. And yes, I certainly do believe that a ZvZ where when everything about the build is equal at the point at which you scout the random player should go to the guy who plays ZvZ all the time. And see nobody is claiming that his run showed complete mastery of P or Z, but that his run, and decision making can carry him through that far alone, despite this being his first venture into random. These excuses for justifying why FlaSh's random run was impressive is really exposing your inexperience/lack of knowledge in Starcraft. TMNT is 100% correct. You cannot say that Plasma ZvZ is a normal ZvZ map where players don't need to open with any lings. Making even a single pair of lings puts you at a severe disadvantage. Defending FlaSh's 3h before pool against a 9pool as "not a bo win just a greedy build" doesn't even make sense. Every game has risk when you choose a risky bo. He got caught, end of. If it were the other way around, you'd be praising FlaSh for having such a brilliant choice of build. Not really how it works.
Are we watching the same ZvZ? Soma didn't make lings? Wtf are you even talking about? He overdroned, while already having a drone lead and made his 2nd hatch before lair which delayed his lair timing. You can go watch the VOD if you're struggling to remember the game. Then, after that delay, he got his initial units slaughted when the popped out, which couldn't be avoided at that point. His decision to make extra drones cost him the game. Not some BO loss.
And nobody said anything about what flash did was brilliant, he made a decision that his only choice was to win the muta race, and soma butchered that losing his initial 6 larva worth of air units for mostly free and a couple drones. But if soma had simply went lair as fast, they would have been in equal production with no rush for scourge, no free drone kills, and would have won with superior micro.
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On July 03 2024 17:38 TMNT wrote:Oh come on now you're just showing a lack of understanding of gameplay. No wonder why you think those BO advantages aren't significant. Show nested quote +-Flash vs Rush if unscouted the BBS is at worst place equal. The difference was the decision to scout. Instead his build was interrupted, not in full effect so it isn't even a BO win. Early pool vs anything proxy on the map is 90% win for Zerg already. The fact that he scouted the BB in the center just made it 100%. Plus, he did a 7 Pool. Of course he has to cross scout with a Drone and let the Overlord take care of one corner. Are you going to do 7 Pool and run randomly to one corner and pray the opponent's there like a noob? We're now almost venturing to the territory where Flash builds a Depot and we'd go "Brilliant decision making and build order choice there". Show nested quote +- ZvZ on plasma before any sort of variance in build was made vs SOMA, soma already had supply lead, and the advantage in scouting, there was no difference, except he didn't make his Lair as early as possible. This is an absurd comment. Just lost for words. Shows you have no clue how ZvZ functions on Plasma. What does "supply lead" in the first two minutes of a ZvZ even mean lol? Yeah let's drone up to 20 and have a "supply lead" while your opponent makes 6 speedlings on 7 drones to kill you. And what advantage in scouting does Soma have lol, the advantage of finding out which direction his death will come from? Flash had the biggest advantage someone could ever have on that map already, knowing his opponent's race. Why didn't Soma make his Lair asap? Is this a real question? Why would he when he didn't even know his opponent's race? Yep there was no difference, except for the only difference that makes you 100% lose lol. Show nested quote +And yes, I certainly do believe that a ZvZ where when everything about the build is equal at the point at which you scout the random player should go to the guy who plays ZvZ all the time Yeah, and see here the prime evidence you dont understand that game. The ZvZ on Plasma is 50/50 for the first two mins or so when the only thing you do is make drones, but the moment Flash puts down his Pool and Gas first with the aim for a faster Lair, it immediately turns into 99/1 in his favor. But since you can't understand that, you think the build was still equal when Soma or Larva scouted Flash. But the bottom line is, if you're trying to prove Flash's brilliance as offrace, you better find an example where he outclasses his opponent with skills, or he himself overcomes a disadvantage. You can't take the games in which he had a massive headstart, in some cases almost a sure win, then piled on it to get the victory. As I said, in some games you can put a BSL player to take it from there (from the BO advantage that Flash had with Random) and he'd win comfortably. Is the BSL player as good as Flash now?
An unscouted BBS IMO has more of a chance then you pretend, but sure for argument I'm not sure we have a whole host of games to go off of where flash's decision making in that situation can be looked at.
But the ZvZ you're so lost. Dude made his 2nd hatch, which delayed his minerals for the lair. When he could have made the lair maybe 7 seconds late which is muta flying time. Game easily at that point goes to soma if he isn't forced to butcher his first 6 larva worth of units and a few drones because of the delay. If you're struggling to remember the match the VOD is online. You can actually see the delay. If you don't believe me again the VOD is right there.
And btw if flash somehow magically always secures a BO advantage isn't that a skill in itself? Or does he not always do that and instead it is like any other match and he makes it work in his favor? Did he really have an insane headstart for an entire ASL experience of random?
Flash out here flipping coins and always getting heads which is what he picked according to you. In reality he created conditions to secure advantages that went unchecked by his opponents in most games.
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I've heard that in 2v2 picking random with ally who chose his race, will give you only 11% chance of getting his race. Wonder if that's also true for 1v1. Wonder if that's why protoss went for 12 nex and zerg the non-fast muta build.
Or maybe they simply took the 67% odds, which is of course valid, just unlucky.
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On July 04 2024 07:02 Bonyth wrote:
I've heard that in 2v2 picking random with ally who chose his race, will give you only 11% chance of getting his race. Wonder if that's also true for 1v1. Wonder if that's why protoss went for 12 nex and zerg the non-fast muta build.
Or maybe they simply took the 67% odds, which is of course valid, just unlucky.
Pretty sure that isn't true and it's a 33.33% chance you get P, Z, or T.
From a programming perspective, you'd literally have to intentionally code that in to have it be the case. I haven't looked at the code but I'm sure it's just a random function within a 0-2 range with the return of 0=P 1=Z 2=T which would truly make it random. It would be extremely odd if they made the decision to program in something like you mentioned for the "Random" selection.
Just seems not true but I don't know for sure.
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Noobskills, your username really checks out when it comes to understanding that ZvZ on Plasma. Soma made the 2nd Hatch before Lair because at that point he had like 10 gas AND his Pool hadn't finished! To put it into perspective, Flash started his Lair 15s before Soma's Pool even finished. Go figure.
Plus, why you kept talking as if Soma knew Flash's race? Overdrone? Okay so what if he didn't make drones and went 9 Pool 8 gas, only to find out later that Flash just put down a 12 Nexus (lmao). You see how fucked up it could be for the Zerg vs Random on that map now?
To sum it up for you: the only way for Soma/Larva to not suffer a BO loss vs Random Zerg on Plasma is to blindly go Lair asap. But if they do so and Flash is not Zerg, they'd suffer a BO loss vs Random Terran/Protoss. And that's why in the above comment, Bonyth mentioned the 67%.
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And this part:
And btw if flash somehow magically always secures a BO advantage isn't that a skill in itself? Or does he not always do that and instead it is like any other match and he makes it work in his favor? Did he really have an insane headstart for an entire ASL experience of random?
Flash out here flipping coins and always getting heads which is what he picked according to you. In reality he created conditions to secure advantages that went unchecked by his opponents in most games.
No it isn't a skill lol. You're just sugarcoating it, the same way you see Flash "did nothing wrong" in the coin scandal. As I said, you're in the territory where Flash builds a Depot and you'd go "Great decision".
But seriously, the real reason he gets BO advantage more often than not is because he's Random. There are more than one person in this thread already explaining it to you, but you seem to not pay attention: it screws up the opening of his opponents. Plus, in a series, he can prepare his builds but his opponents can't.
He doesn't create the advantage. His race creates it for him. If Snow knew Flash was Protoss, he wouldn't go 12 Nexus. If Larva and Soma knew Flash was Zerg, they would go Pool first. If Rush knew Flash was Zerg, he wouldn't do BBS, etc. That's 4 out of the 6 games he won.
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On July 04 2024 09:12 TMNT wrote:
Noobskills, your username really checks out when it comes to understanding that ZvZ on Plasma. Soma made the 2nd Hatch before Lair because at that point he had like 10 gas AND his Pool hadn't finished! To put it into perspective, Flash started his Lair 15s before Soma's Pool even finished. Go figure.
Plus, why you kept talking as if Soma knew Flash's race? Overdrone? Okay so what if he didn't make drones and went 9 Pool 8 gas, only to find out later that Flash just put down a 12 Nexus (lmao). You see how fucked up it could be for the Zerg vs Random on that map now?
To sum it up for you: the only way for Soma/Larva to not suffer a BO loss vs Random Zerg on Plasma is to blindly go Lair asap. But if they do so and Flash is not Zerg, they'd suffer a BO loss vs Random Terran/Protoss. And that's why in the above comment, Bonyth mentioned the 67%.
He was behind 8ISH seconds (flying time) due to the pool. He was behind another 12 seconds due to the fact that he didn't have minerals to go up to Lair, because he made the hatch before that. If you need me to grab you a stopwatch I can. And while that extra 8ish seconds does mean something because they were close spawn, the additional 12 meant more. But hey sure, soma couldn't beat an amateur zerg player by simply out muta microing him with even numbers right?
It does not matter how other scenarios MIGHT have worked out, they were at the same pacing.
You keep talking about a ton of other what if's that didn't happen in this match. He wasn't met by a terran or protoss, he was met by an amateur zerg player who beat him to lair by a massive time frame because he didn't make a hatch before spire in close positions. Decision making, not BO.
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On July 04 2024 09:36 TMNT wrote:And this part: Show nested quote +
And btw if flash somehow magically always secures a BO advantage isn't that a skill in itself? Or does he not always do that and instead it is like any other match and he makes it work in his favor? Did he really have an insane headstart for an entire ASL experience of random?
Flash out here flipping coins and always getting heads which is what he picked according to you. In reality he created conditions to secure advantages that went unchecked by his opponents in most games.
No it isn't a skill lol. You're just sugarcoating it, the same way you see Flash "did nothing wrong" in the coin scandal. As I said, you're in the territory where Flash builds a Depot and you'd go "Great decision". But seriously, the real reason he gets BO advantage more often than not is because he's Random. There are more than one person in this thread already explaining it to you, but you seem to not pay attention: it screws up the opening of his opponents. Plus, in a series, he can prepare his builds but his opponents can't. He doesn't create the advantage. His race creates it for him. If Snow knew Flash was Protoss, he wouldn't go 12 Nexus. If Larva and Soma knew Flash was Zerg, they would go Pool first. If Rush knew Flash was Zerg, he wouldn't do BBS, etc. That's 4 out of the 6 games he won.
Decent deflection towards an assumption about me. No his play isn't super exciting right now, and no I haven't celebrated his depot, hopefully one day someone makes a play where a depot is celebratory worthy, but until then it hasn't happened.
And no it wasn't about flash in general that is why I gave plenty of other alternative things that could have gone wrong with a sponsorship deal. And none of you can even argue that properly. Anyone else could have been a part of some sort of advertising associated and losing customers money that they had no clue of. Or even far worse. But more deflections because somehow it is so much different. The best part is, that even beyond that, getting suckered into buying a virtual currency despite the numerous scams that have already happened in that realm by known bad actors, but yet somehow you think this is your lottery ticket, but when the numbers don't hit is the paid actor's fault who had no clue of what was going on? I already said if he knew or profited purposefully off their downfall he certainly is to blame.
"it screws up the opening of his opponents. Plus, in a series, he can prepare his builds but his opponents can't."
They can't make plans vs facing random? I was unaware they weren't allowed to practice taking all factors into consideration. Is a 7pool 2gate and a BBS so different? How about nexus CC or 3hatch b4 pool? All the excuses, none of the prep work though. I guess it is simply impossible to have a somewhat middle of the road build that leaves you ahead in 66.667 percent of matches because he is an amateur at those matches lol.
Snow was ahead in that game. Sorry that you feel otherwise, he just got beat by a decision. Even losing probes he had better mining, more probes, and more supply. And would have had a greater lead if he didn't make that choice.
Are you saying that rush has never BBS'd a zerg before? Crazy.
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On July 04 2024 09:55 NoobSkills wrote:
They can't make plans vs facing random? I was unaware they weren't allowed to practice taking all factors into consideration. Is a 7pool 2gate and a BBS so different? How about nexus CC or 3hatch b4 pool? All the excuses, none of the prep work though. I guess it is simply impossible to have a somewhat middle of the road build that leaves you ahead in 66.667 percent of matches because he is an amateur at those matches lol.
You're now pivoting to "Flash's opponents didn't properly prepare for him playing random". Which may or may not be true, certainly harder to disprove than your earlier argument that "those weren't BO wins". His opponents were certainly gambling in some cases and maybe shouldn't have been, but do you realise something about this argument?
It speaks nothing to Flash's skill, and all to his opponents failing to prepare for his tournament gimmick. It in fact provides support to the key point of the people arguing against you, that Flash got a lot of those wins simply because he was playing Random, and not because he's Flash and some mega-God at all three races.
Fuck, I thought Flash being mega-God at one race was enough. And anyone who's not an anti-fan should acknowledge that PvT game with those reavers <3
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Northern Ireland23069 Posts
On July 04 2024 09:44 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2024 09:12 TMNT wrote:
Noobskills, your username really checks out when it comes to understanding that ZvZ on Plasma. Soma made the 2nd Hatch before Lair because at that point he had like 10 gas AND his Pool hadn't finished! To put it into perspective, Flash started his Lair 15s before Soma's Pool even finished. Go figure.
Plus, why you kept talking as if Soma knew Flash's race? Overdrone? Okay so what if he didn't make drones and went 9 Pool 8 gas, only to find out later that Flash just put down a 12 Nexus (lmao). You see how fucked up it could be for the Zerg vs Random on that map now?
To sum it up for you: the only way for Soma/Larva to not suffer a BO loss vs Random Zerg on Plasma is to blindly go Lair asap. But if they do so and Flash is not Zerg, they'd suffer a BO loss vs Random Terran/Protoss. And that's why in the above comment, Bonyth mentioned the 67%. He was behind 8ISH seconds (flying time) due to the pool. He was behind another 12 seconds due to the fact that he didn't have minerals to go up to Lair, because he made the hatch before that. If you need me to grab you a stopwatch I can. And while that extra 8ish seconds does mean something because they were close spawn, the additional 12 meant more. But hey sure, soma couldn't beat an amateur zerg player by simply out muta microing him with even numbers right? It does not matter how other scenarios MIGHT have worked out, they were at the same pacing. You keep talking about a ton of other what if's that didn't happen in this match. He wasn't met by a terran or protoss, he was met by an amateur zerg player who beat him to lair by a massive time frame because he didn't make a hatch before spire in close positions. Decision making, not BO.
It’s kinda underselling Flash to call him an amateur if he’s off-racing, although yes technically accurate but the term has a certain implication.
The one advantage Flash has is way more pronounced in the phase of the game where his disadvantage is least exposed, it’s just the nature of the beast here. Flash’s not maining x race is way less relevant in the openers phase when the opponent is more blind than he is, and ofc in some 25 minute long macro slugfest you expect the main racer to pull out their advantage there.
I don’t understand what ‘decision making, no BO’ can mean in a context where there’s that disparity.
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On July 04 2024 10:49 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2024 09:55 NoobSkills wrote:
They can't make plans vs facing random? I was unaware they weren't allowed to practice taking all factors into consideration. Is a 7pool 2gate and a BBS so different? How about nexus CC or 3hatch b4 pool? All the excuses, none of the prep work though. I guess it is simply impossible to have a somewhat middle of the road build that leaves you ahead in 66.667 percent of matches because he is an amateur at those matches lol. You're now pivoting to "Flash's opponents didn't properly prepare for him playing random". Which may or may not be true, certainly harder to disprove than your earlier argument that "those weren't BO wins". His opponents were certainly gambling in some cases and maybe shouldn't have been, but do you realise something about this argument? It speaks nothing to Flash's skill, and all to his opponents failing to prepare for his tournament gimmick. It in fact provides support to the key point of the people arguing against you, that Flash got a lot of those wins simply because he was playing Random, and not because he's Flash and some mega-God at all three races. Fuck, I thought Flash being mega-God at one race was enough. And anyone who's not an anti-fan should acknowledge that PvT game with those reavers <3
A BO win, while I think in general is overstated even in normal matches, is DIRECTLY that thing leading to a win largely due to an insurmountable lead based off it. Why do I think it is overstated? Because people have come back from the same BO situations described, and not inherently always through their opponents mistakes, but by using the advantages they did have access to OR deflecting whatever made them weak.
I do get what you're saying, but they weren't directly coin flips based solely off BO. What happens if you win the original BO in a PvP, then your opponent says fuck it I'm behind, so I'm going to make DT's and you didn't build detection so you lose. Was that your BO win? Or did we extend it to a point in which your opponent's BO was DT and that was now their BO win? Or was that a decision to make DT's in response to the BO disadvantage?
As for Flash's skill, everyone is entirely accurate about his ability to even use the most normal of units from the opposing races. Reaver, storm, muta, and even the basic units were used pretty poorly, but in an attempt to reinforce the decision made. I never claimed he mastered those races. But he also didn't have a full event that was 100% luck. I mean it could happen, but that isn't what I saw.
I can see your point somewhat in the next paragraph, their lack of understanding of random, but does that really fully counter his poor gameplay with Z and P? Not in terms of decision making and strategy execution, but in terms of just normal gameplay with those races. Was he winning at points in which the random was still having an affect that couldn't be overcome simply by the mastery of his opponents in that matchup? Or was flash actually good enough to defeat people in a matchup he doesn't fully understand? I'm not saying that no BO difference or tactic or decision made 100% of the affect, but his entire event run certainly wasn't based off BO wins.
As for his current play outside of thinking about the random run. There is a good TvP vs snow, where he showed some signs. Clear losses, but I was surprised that he put up that much of a fight vs snow. The first game IIRC was a beatdown though.
On July 04 2024 11:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2024 09:44 NoobSkills wrote:On July 04 2024 09:12 TMNT wrote:
Noobskills, your username really checks out when it comes to understanding that ZvZ on Plasma. Soma made the 2nd Hatch before Lair because at that point he had like 10 gas AND his Pool hadn't finished! To put it into perspective, Flash started his Lair 15s before Soma's Pool even finished. Go figure.
Plus, why you kept talking as if Soma knew Flash's race? Overdrone? Okay so what if he didn't make drones and went 9 Pool 8 gas, only to find out later that Flash just put down a 12 Nexus (lmao). You see how fucked up it could be for the Zerg vs Random on that map now?
To sum it up for you: the only way for Soma/Larva to not suffer a BO loss vs Random Zerg on Plasma is to blindly go Lair asap. But if they do so and Flash is not Zerg, they'd suffer a BO loss vs Random Terran/Protoss. And that's why in the above comment, Bonyth mentioned the 67%. He was behind 8ISH seconds (flying time) due to the pool. He was behind another 12 seconds due to the fact that he didn't have minerals to go up to Lair, because he made the hatch before that. If you need me to grab you a stopwatch I can. And while that extra 8ish seconds does mean something because they were close spawn, the additional 12 meant more. But hey sure, soma couldn't beat an amateur zerg player by simply out muta microing him with even numbers right? It does not matter how other scenarios MIGHT have worked out, they were at the same pacing. You keep talking about a ton of other what if's that didn't happen in this match. He wasn't met by a terran or protoss, he was met by an amateur zerg player who beat him to lair by a massive time frame because he didn't make a hatch before spire in close positions. Decision making, not BO. It’s kinda underselling Flash to call him an amateur if he’s off-racing, although yes technically accurate but the term has a certain implication. The one advantage Flash has is way more pronounced in the phase of the game where his disadvantage is least exposed, it’s just the nature of the beast here. Flash’s not maining x race is way less relevant in the openers phase when the opponent is more blind than he is, and ofc in some 25 minute long macro slugfest you expect the main racer to pull out their advantage there. I don’t understand what ‘decision making, no BO’ can mean in a context where there’s that disparity.
Did he show mastery with any set of units from protoss or zerg? His best micro was probably goon micro? Maybe reaver? And none of them were great right? He macro'd fine with each race IIRC, but spending money vs knowing where to spend it is different. Though I get your point not full on amateur, but then again, if you can't handle the staples of those races in their matchups are you not an amateur?
And how long into the game are we giving credit for the random vs the BO choice? Even in the snow series, why did he lose game 1? Didn't scout a hidden nexus. Is a hidden nexus a build order or a decision outside of the early game position? Snow skipped a zealot, had goons on the board first, at the point in time in which flash made that nexus, snow was ahead.
How about in game two where despite a crazy opening, which could have been punished, he chooses to take that eco lead and efficiency even further by slamming out probes. Was random still the issue or was choosing economic cheese that got caught out at that point? Maybe he didn't know how to play nexus first from that position, but I'm fairly certain he could figure out that more probes weren't going to beat 2x the production of units. Still wound up in a winning positions and poorly split his army with no info on the map again. Was this due to the BO or random?
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Don't let them keep you down, NoobSkills! These are the same people that obnoxiously think Corsairs are never viable in PvT, or that Artosis should have moved out instead of turtling on 3 bases.
But also, you're definitely a noob NoobSkills. I bet you play Protoss. I also play Protoss. There's definitely no way you play Zerg though.
Anyways - Flash is great. His random skills fell apart mostly in the Zerg and Protoss mirror matchups. No one knew what to expect from Flash as far as random timings go in PvZ or ZvP. But as Zerg against Zerg he simply had no idea how to play the matchup as well as his opponents. He lost to a lower-tier Protoss in PvP as well, looking quite helpless. All he could really do was go for risky cheese in those matchups - that's not playing from a position of power. That's playing from desperation. Power is when you could risky cheese but really don't have to.
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On July 04 2024 11:19 ThunderJunk wrote:
Don't let them keep you down, NoobSkills! These are the same people that obnoxiously think Corsairs are never viable in PvT, or that Artosis should have moved out instead of turtling on 3 bases.
But also, you're definitely a noob NoobSkills. I bet you play Protoss. I also play Protoss. There's definitely no way you play Zerg though.
Anyways - Flash is great. His random skills fell apart mostly in the Zerg and Protoss mirror matchups. No one knew what to expect from Flash as far as random timings go in PvZ or ZvP. But as Zerg against Zerg he simply had no idea how to play the matchup as well as his opponents. He lost to a lower-tier Protoss in PvP as well, looking quite helpless. All he could really do was go for risky cheese in those matchups - that's not playing from a position of power. That's playing from desperation. Power is when you could risky cheese but really don't have to.
Wdym "lost to a lower-tier protoss in PvP as well" ? Which match?
Out of curiosity which cheese was used to win the ZvZ vs soma? Or those PvP's vs snow that were reliant specifically on being random? Would a hidden base not normally lead to a loss in most situations? But sure we can cancel that one out. But is 3 base reaver a cheese now? Is snow cheesey? Sure, the 7 pool was cheesey, but it's impact was made greater due to the scouting and the fact that his opponent was already cheesing. But sure that was a cheese. But isn't that also game series choices that flash has made in the past when he wasn't random? In fact I think his true early cheeses were less than a normal big series from the past right?
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Did Flash get lucky during his random run? Of course he did. Flash would be lucky to win his first seven games in ASL even as Terran.
But are we really coming all the way around to discrediting the run, just because NoobSkills doesn't know anything and keeps making terrible arguments? That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Some noob can keep making bad and wrong arguments for something, and still accidentally be right about some of it (obviously some of what's being said by NoobSkills is just borderline objectively wrong).
Flash's random tournament was a great run, and great entertainment for most. If you don't like seeing something that's never been tried before, in a 20+ year old game, well you probably shouldn't be watching ASL. It's already composed of a lot of "RNG bullshit". Everything from bracket luck to crazy maps that are arguably no better than RNG in effect. That's half the *fun* of ASL.
Fortunately there's plenty of nightly proleague style stuff going on so it's not like we're forced to choose.
Overall, it just seems silly the degree to which the pendulum is swinging here just because of one clueless poster. Just goes to show that the best way to discredit a player is to make a bunch of terrible arguments *for* them (kind of like what TMNT does all the time for Snow  ).
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I love to read you guys  
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EPT
