On June 29 2024 02:46 kogeT wrote: So far what we see in games is that flash is still rusty and he tries to play up terran meta which fails and mech vs zerg (my own recommendation;-))
It looks like a long way to go for him to be top1.
Hard to argue that he looks anywhere close to the best player from what we've seen so far.
But only Flash would get his ladder games analyzed to this extent. Games that are literally just for practice and learning from his perspective. He is not even incentivized to win from a viewer happiness standpoint, since he isn't streaming.
It's similar to how it used to be that it was always much more of a story when Flash lost than when he won. It was news when Last 3-0'd him in his first season back. It was news when he finally lost to Snow. It was news when Effort took him down (again). And it was news when Zero finally got over the hump.
Does anyone even remember who he beat in all his ASL wins? That's a rhetorical question, but you get the idea.
The best version of the SC scene is the one where Flash is not the alpha, since we get to see how he approaches such a situation.
Historically these time periods haven't lasted long. It'll be fun to see how long it lasts this time.
FlaSh will, without doubt, return to the number one spot. I was never a fan particularly, I don't feel he made for exciting games, but that's precisely because they were so often a foregone conclusion. It would be bordering on delusional to bet against him being the top of the stack again, and I speak from experience as I'm myself a little prone to delusional fanboyism.
On June 30 2024 19:05 ImbaTosS wrote: FlaSh will, without doubt, return to the number one spot. I was never a fan particularly, I don't feel he made for exciting games, but that's precisely because they were so often a foregone conclusion. It would be bordering on delusional to bet against him being the top of the stack again, and I speak from experience as I'm myself a little prone to delusional fanboyism.
Will he, though? Every player is destined to decline. Even Flash. I kind of expected that Jaedong will rise in ASL to the very top again - but he never did. Perhaps this time Flash will "just" be ASL regular.
To me BW is a lot more interesting without a definitive #1 player for years at a time with no one else even close IMO. It was fun in KESPA era because TBLS were all super close in skill most of the time, and flash only transcended beyond JD for like a 10-12 months before he started losing in OSL again (When Jangbi won 2 OSLs at the end) and then BW ended for a while.
Just from a personal perspective I've enjoyed the last 3 years of BW without flash more than when he was around and almost always guaranteed to win ASL and like 75% of his matches. Not that it was boring when he was there. It was nice to have him as the "ultimate test of skill" for others. But it's more fun to me to have it be more competitive otherwise.
I watched a recent practice game of his against Motive. Stormtoss with serious macro gave him trouble, despite the fact that he was able to greed fully and go up to 5 bases. He couldn't get enough tanks in position without leaving his other bases open to counterattack... but it was a practice game where they were drilling a specific scenario. I think Flash is going to come back in a big way.
Flash has incredible practice partners who feel motivated to help him succeed to his utmost potential. Pros like Motive don't get enough credit for training with the very top players.
On June 30 2024 19:05 ImbaTosS wrote: FlaSh will, without doubt, return to the number one spot. I was never a fan particularly, I don't feel he made for exciting games, but that's precisely because they were so often a foregone conclusion. It would be bordering on delusional to bet against him being the top of the stack again, and I speak from experience as I'm myself a little prone to delusional fanboyism.
Will he, though? Every player is destined to decline. Even Flash. I kind of expected that Jaedong will rise in ASL to the very top again - but he never did. Perhaps this time Flash will "just" be ASL regular.
As somewhat of a Jaedong fanboy, imho Jaedong's strength were first and formost his mechanics and multitasking. Those are skills, which are inevitable to decline. Flash's declined as well compared to when he dominated during the Kespa era. Flash's strength is his game knowledge and I whole-heartedly believe that his understanding and grasp of BW is just beyond anyone's ever. I think, if he is actively playing, he is able to create the most accurate picture of a game state in his head out of any pro by a wide margin. This is something that's unlikely to decline but in fact a skill that likely improves the older he gets.
On July 02 2024 01:38 ThunderJunk wrote: I watched a recent practice game of his against Motive. Stormtoss with serious macro gave him trouble, despite the fact that he was able to greed fully and go up to 5 bases. He couldn't get enough tanks in position without leaving his other bases open to counterattack... but it was a practice game where they were drilling a specific scenario. I think Flash is going to come back in a big way.
Flash has incredible practice partners who feel motivated to help him succeed to his utmost potential. Pros like Motive don't get enough credit for training with the very top players.
On June 30 2024 19:05 ImbaTosS wrote: FlaSh will, without doubt, return to the number one spot. I was never a fan particularly, I don't feel he made for exciting games, but that's precisely because they were so often a foregone conclusion. It would be bordering on delusional to bet against him being the top of the stack again, and I speak from experience as I'm myself a little prone to delusional fanboyism.
Will he, though? Every player is destined to decline. Even Flash. I kind of expected that Jaedong will rise in ASL to the very top again - but he never did. Perhaps this time Flash will "just" be ASL regular.
As somewhat of a Jaedong fanboy, imho Jaedong's strength were first and formost his mechanics and multitasking. Those are skills, which are inevitable to decline. Flash's declined as well compared to when he dominated during the Kespa era. Flash's strength is his game knowledge and I whole-heartedly believe that his understanding and grasp of BW is just beyond anyone's ever. I think, if he is actively playing, he is able to create the most accurate picture of a game state in his head out of any pro by a wide margin. This is something that's unlikely to decline but in fact a skill that likely improves the older he gets.
I remember watching a few games where he suspected drop play from the opponent and he would find the Dropship with a scan somewhere on the map. Just ridiculous.
On June 30 2024 19:05 ImbaTosS wrote: FlaSh will, without doubt, return to the number one spot. I was never a fan particularly, I don't feel he made for exciting games, but that's precisely because they were so often a foregone conclusion. It would be bordering on delusional to bet against him being the top of the stack again, and I speak from experience as I'm myself a little prone to delusional fanboyism.
Will he, though? Every player is destined to decline. Even Flash. I kind of expected that Jaedong will rise in ASL to the very top again - but he never did. Perhaps this time Flash will "just" be ASL regular.
As somewhat of a Jaedong fanboy, imho Jaedong's strength were first and formost his mechanics and multitasking. Those are skills, which are inevitable to decline. Flash's declined as well compared to when he dominated during the Kespa era. Flash's strength is his game knowledge and I whole-heartedly believe that his understanding and grasp of BW is just beyond anyone's ever. I think, if he is actively playing, he is able to create the most accurate picture of a game state in his head out of any pro by a wide margin. This is something that's unlikely to decline but in fact a skill that likely improves the older he gets.
I remember watching a few games where he suspected drop play from the opponent and he would find the Dropship with a scan somewhere on the map. Just ridiculous.
I feel like there was a compilation of all of FlaSh's starsense/maphacks from Kespa and even ASL period where he would just know, scan, and the casters are just screaming like wtf how does he know.
Flash was (once again) so high above everyone else when he left for his service. There's a reason why he attempted that random run at ASL.
What should have happended in the time that he was gone that would lead to him losing any of his former skill? Major injuries maybe, but he even had those and overcame it. And I doubt that the coin-scandal would affect his play when he switches into Ultimate Weapon mode.
All that matters is how determined he is to reach the top. If he's really determined like he was before his service, he'll be back on top.
A lot of you are right, it is indeed boring when flash was on top and looking unstoppable. Same old shit every game, just knew he was better, was going to keep it going, and eventually you were going to be put in a position where you're exposed to exactly how he wants to attack and have absolutely zero recourse.
But that is what makes times where he was beaten more insane and impressive. Like when your buddy effort said fuck this I can macro all day against you, but I can also throw in some wild shit that you don't expect because I can macro against you all day.
It also lead to a random ASL run that was insane. And that alone is funny. But then it exposes something else, that if he can do it on random, and makes game ending choices on that. Were the players he was playing against actually grinding enough because he won some matches where he was CLEARLY behind, but not just with terran, but the other races. So maybe they should have hit the books a little harder, so maybe they too could have reached the level flash was playing at.
On July 02 2024 07:41 NoobSkills wrote: It also lead to a random ASL run that was insane. And that alone is funny. But then it exposes something else, that if he can do it on random, and makes game ending choices on that. Were the players he was playing against actually grinding enough because he won some matches where he was CLEARLY behind, but not just with terran, but the other races. So maybe they should have hit the books a little harder, so maybe they too could have reached the level flash was playing at.
What game in that ASL that he won after being behind? Afaik he won like 1-2 proper games. Rest was won off build order advantage (because he is random) or some cheese/mind game.
(obviously the games he rolled Terran don't count)
On July 02 2024 01:38 ThunderJunk wrote: I watched a recent practice game of his against Motive. Stormtoss with serious macro gave him trouble, despite the fact that he was able to greed fully and go up to 5 bases. He couldn't get enough tanks in position without leaving his other bases open to counterattack... but it was a practice game where they were drilling a specific scenario. I think Flash is going to come back in a big way.
Flash has incredible practice partners who feel motivated to help him succeed to his utmost potential. Pros like Motive don't get enough credit for training with the very top players.
On July 02 2024 07:41 NoobSkills wrote: But that is what makes times where he was beaten more insane and impressive. Like when your buddy effort said fuck this I can macro all day against you, but I can also throw in some wild shit that you don't expect because I can macro against you all day.
Effort goes out of his way to practice non-standard styles that require different adaptations. Like when he was going fast lurker ZvT when everyone else was just grinding Muta micro games. He was able to babysit his lurkers so incredibly well throughout that he didn't lose a single one and suddenly the Terran had no scans and NO IDEA what was in the fog of war - but afraid to scan to find out because he needed some for the lurkers, which could be anywhere! It took such a long time to finally get that vessel out that when he was moving out Effort not only had the tech he needed, he also had an economic advantage.
Mini was able to crush Effort 3-0 though. It was painful seeing such a brilliant ZvT tactician get duped by a nexus first on Invader of all maps. If Flash draws mini in the later rounds and avoids him in the group stages, he'll get a decisive victory against Mini - Mini can't actually macro past 40 probes in PvT. But, Flash will need to abandon his anti-Bisu upgrade terran build. If he leans on that build as a catch-all against a player that never macros past 40 probes, I'd be flabbergasted.
What I'd REALLY like to see is Sharp vs Flash. I think Sharp would be able to beat him in TvT this ASL if his desire to win is ignited. But, I wonder if it will be. The matchup I'm not worried about for Flash is TvZ. He's always been so dominant in that matchup.
On July 02 2024 07:41 NoobSkills wrote: It also lead to a random ASL run that was insane. And that alone is funny. But then it exposes something else, that if he can do it on random, and makes game ending choices on that. Were the players he was playing against actually grinding enough because he won some matches where he was CLEARLY behind, but not just with terran, but the other races. So maybe they should have hit the books a little harder, so maybe they too could have reached the level flash was playing at.
What game in that ASL that he won after being behind? Afaik he won like 1-2 proper games. Rest was won off build order advantage (because he is random) or some cheese/mind game.
(obviously the games he rolled Terran don't count)
There was a PvP game he was for sure behind.
And I believe there was one other zerg game that flash was playing?
On July 02 2024 07:41 NoobSkills wrote: But that is what makes times where he was beaten more insane and impressive. Like when your buddy effort said fuck this I can macro all day against you, but I can also throw in some wild shit that you don't expect because I can macro against you all day.
Effort goes out of his way to practice non-standard styles that require different adaptations. Like when he was going fast lurker ZvT when everyone else was just grinding Muta micro games. He was able to babysit his lurkers so incredibly well throughout that he didn't lose a single one and suddenly the Terran had no scans and NO IDEA what was in the fog of war - but afraid to scan to find out because he needed some for the lurkers, which could be anywhere! It took such a long time to finally get that vessel out that when he was moving out Effort not only had the tech he needed, he also had an economic advantage.
Mini was able to crush Effort 3-0 though. It was painful seeing such a brilliant ZvT tactician get duped by a nexus first on Invader of all maps. If Flash draws mini in the later rounds and avoids him in the group stages, he'll get a decisive victory against Mini - Mini can't actually macro past 40 probes in PvT. But, Flash will need to abandon his anti-Bisu upgrade terran build. If he leans on that build as a catch-all against a player that never macros past 40 probes, I'd be flabbergasted.
What I'd REALLY like to see is Sharp vs Flash. I think Sharp would be able to beat him in TvT this ASL if his desire to win is ignited. But, I wonder if it will be. The matchup I'm not worried about for Flash is TvZ. He's always been so dominant in that matchup.
I mean effort did have that build for some time. But a lot of his wins were also light muta standard, into just fucking insane macro having so much bullshit on the field that he couldn't be surprised or forced to over rotate like some other zergs. It becomes very difficult if everywhere you want to make a move there is already 4 scourge, 2 lurkers 12 lings a defiler and an ultra with 3 mutas attacking before you even get a single unit out.
As for sharp vs flash and this upcoming ASL, I think you're right he does look sharp if you will..... Jeuss that was bad. But there is a pretty good chunk of time before that ASL happens right?
On July 02 2024 07:41 NoobSkills wrote: It also lead to a random ASL run that was insane. And that alone is funny. But then it exposes something else, that if he can do it on random, and makes game ending choices on that. Were the players he was playing against actually grinding enough because he won some matches where he was CLEARLY behind, but not just with terran, but the other races. So maybe they should have hit the books a little harder, so maybe they too could have reached the level flash was playing at.
What game in that ASL that he won after being behind? Afaik he won like 1-2 proper games. Rest was won off build order advantage (because he is random) or some cheese/mind game.
(obviously the games he rolled Terran don't count)
On top of my head, his 2nd match against snOw where it was a PvsP. He was clearly behind but manage to win
It was in the RO16 with frEe, snOw and... I want to say hero!?
On July 02 2024 12:16 NoobSkills wrote: There was a PvP game he was for sure behind.
And I believe there was one other zerg game that flash was playing?
But for sure the PvP he was going to lose.
On July 02 2024 16:46 TornadoSteve wrote: On top of my head, his 2nd match against snOw where it was a PvsP. He was clearly behind but manage to win
It was in the RO16 with frEe, snOw and... I want to say hero!?
If you guys are talking about that game. No he wasn't behind at any point. Quite ahead actually.
He was playing a PvP in which his opponent opened with 12 Nexus, 1 Gate and no gas (because he didn't know Flash waa Protoss) which is the stupidest PvP build at pro level and can only work for D rank noobs. Flash was ahead in supply the whole game, had Reavers vs Dragoons, while Snow had to build Cannons and pulled Probes out to hold on to his life and could never even tech up to Reaver because of how far his opening set him behind.
Maybe Tastosis was misleading the audience with some stupid commentary?
Also there was no Zerg games that he was behind. Only a few games that he won off BO advantage (think ZvZ on Plasma but your opponents don't know you're Zerg lol).
That random run is so overrated that I hate it when people cite it as evidence of Flash's brilliance.
EPT
