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Poland3748 Posts
On July 02 2024 16:46 TornadoSteve wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 07:52 TMNT wrote:On July 02 2024 07:41 NoobSkills wrote:
It also lead to a random ASL run that was insane. And that alone is funny. But then it exposes something else, that if he can do it on random, and makes game ending choices on that. Were the players he was playing against actually grinding enough because he won some matches where he was CLEARLY behind, but not just with terran, but the other races. So maybe they should have hit the books a little harder, so maybe they too could have reached the level flash was playing at. What game in that ASL that he won after being behind? Afaik he won like 1-2 proper games. Rest was won off build order advantage (because he is random) or some cheese/mind game. (obviously the games he rolled Terran don't count) On top of my head, his 2nd match against snOw where it was a PvsP. He was clearly behind but manage to win It was in the RO16 with frEe, snOw and... I want to say hero!?
Wasn't it the game when Snow was eventually ahead and split his army yet Flash instead of being sandwiched and destroyed managed to engage half of the army of Snow before the second half caught up. But I can't say whether it was Flash decisivness, Starsense to attack at that moment, Snow throwing game by splitting army or just sort of randomly luck narrow timing.
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On July 02 2024 17:09 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 12:16 NoobSkills wrote:
There was a PvP game he was for sure behind.
And I believe there was one other zerg game that flash was playing?
But for sure the PvP he was going to lose. Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 16:46 TornadoSteve wrote:
On top of my head, his 2nd match against snOw where it was a PvsP. He was clearly behind but manage to win
It was in the RO16 with frEe, snOw and... I want to say hero!? If you guys are talking about that game. No he wasn't behind at any point. Quite ahead actually. He was playing a PvP in which his opponent opened with 12 Nexus, 1 Gate and no gas (because he didn't know Flash waa Protoss) which is the stupidest PvP build at pro level and can only work for D rank noobs. Flash was ahead in supply the whole game, had Reavers vs Dragoons, while Snow had to build Cannons and pulled Probes out to hold on to his life and could never even tech up to Reaver because of how far his opening set him behind. Maybe Tastosis was misleading the audience with some stupid commentary? Also there was no Zerg games that he was behind. Only a few games that he won off BO advantage (think ZvZ on Plasma but your opponents don't know you're Zerg lol). That random run is so overrated that I hate it when people cite it as evidence of Flash's brilliance.
Its not like it was somehow close... SnOw was ahead and there is no possible debate. He made a bad engagement and this is why he lost.
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On July 02 2024 17:09 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 12:16 NoobSkills wrote:
There was a PvP game he was for sure behind.
And I believe there was one other zerg game that flash was playing?
But for sure the PvP he was going to lose. Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 16:46 TornadoSteve wrote:
On top of my head, his 2nd match against snOw where it was a PvsP. He was clearly behind but manage to win
It was in the RO16 with frEe, snOw and... I want to say hero!? If you guys are talking about that game. No he wasn't behind at any point. Quite ahead actually. He was playing a PvP in which his opponent opened with 12 Nexus, 1 Gate and no gas (because he didn't know Flash waa Protoss) which is the stupidest PvP build at pro level and can only work for D rank noobs. Flash was ahead in supply the whole game, had Reavers vs Dragoons, while Snow had to build Cannons and pulled Probes out to hold on to his life and could never even tech up to Reaver because of how far his opening set him behind. Maybe Tastosis was misleading the audience with some stupid commentary? Also there was no Zerg games that he was behind. Only a few games that he won off BO advantage (think ZvZ on Plasma but your opponents don't know you're Zerg lol). That random run is so overrated that I hate it when people cite it as evidence of Flash's brilliance.
random gives massive build order advantages. You know what your opponent is, but they dont know what you are. you always get the superior build order. his random run was cool though.
Now if Flash picked T then Z then P, or said his race at start, that would be absolutely amazing. His opponents would know what he was playing.
But that aside. Random still requires you to actually be good enough on each race to close games.
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On July 02 2024 19:51 TornadoSteve wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 17:09 TMNT wrote:On July 02 2024 12:16 NoobSkills wrote:
There was a PvP game he was for sure behind.
And I believe there was one other zerg game that flash was playing?
But for sure the PvP he was going to lose. On July 02 2024 16:46 TornadoSteve wrote:
On top of my head, his 2nd match against snOw where it was a PvsP. He was clearly behind but manage to win
It was in the RO16 with frEe, snOw and... I want to say hero!? If you guys are talking about that game. No he wasn't behind at any point. Quite ahead actually. He was playing a PvP in which his opponent opened with 12 Nexus, 1 Gate and no gas (because he didn't know Flash waa Protoss) which is the stupidest PvP build at pro level and can only work for D rank noobs. Flash was ahead in supply the whole game, had Reavers vs Dragoons, while Snow had to build Cannons and pulled Probes out to hold on to his life and could never even tech up to Reaver because of how far his opening set him behind. Maybe Tastosis was misleading the audience with some stupid commentary? Also there was no Zerg games that he was behind. Only a few games that he won off BO advantage (think ZvZ on Plasma but your opponents don't know you're Zerg lol). That random run is so overrated that I hate it when people cite it as evidence of Flash's brilliance. Its not like it was somehow close... SnOw was ahead and there is no possible debate. He made a bad engagement and this is why he lost.
That's a terrible read of that game.
How can a guy be ahead in a mirror when he's behind in both supply and tech? Yes he had 2 bases and Flash had 1 but that also mean his army size was either smaller or much smaller than Flash's. And his probe count wasn't even that great since he sacrificed many of them just to stay in the game before.
The only situation that Snow can be ahead is if both guys sit there and do nothing for the next 5 minutes so he can start benefiting from his 2nd Nexus while Flash can't. The correct description of that game is Flash being ahead the whole time due to a BO advantage (since he's random) and he was able to end it before Snow could start gaining advantage from the 2nd Nexus.
That last engagement obviously doesn't help but it's far from the main reason he lost. If you wonder why, just try to watch the numerous Proleague games and see why no Protosses ever does 12 Nexus opening in PvP, let alone 12 Nexus followed up by 1 Gate and 1 Forge (which is an emergency response to just survive).
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On July 02 2024 03:28 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 02:41 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2024 01:38 Miragee wrote:On July 01 2024 20:36 nimdil wrote:On June 30 2024 19:05 ImbaTosS wrote:
FlaSh will, without doubt, return to the number one spot. I was never a fan particularly, I don't feel he made for exciting games, but that's precisely because they were so often a foregone conclusion. It would be bordering on delusional to bet against him being the top of the stack again, and I speak from experience as I'm myself a little prone to delusional fanboyism. Will he, though? Every player is destined to decline. Even Flash. I kind of expected that Jaedong will rise in ASL to the very top again - but he never did. Perhaps this time Flash will "just" be ASL regular. As somewhat of a Jaedong fanboy, imho Jaedong's strength were first and formost his mechanics and multitasking. Those are skills, which are inevitable to decline. Flash's declined as well compared to when he dominated during the Kespa era. Flash's strength is his game knowledge and I whole-heartedly believe that his understanding and grasp of BW is just beyond anyone's ever. I think, if he is actively playing, he is able to create the most accurate picture of a game state in his head out of any pro by a wide margin. This is something that's unlikely to decline but in fact a skill that likely improves the older he gets. I remember watching a few games where he suspected drop play from the opponent and he would find the Dropship with a scan somewhere on the map. Just ridiculous. I feel like there was a compilation of all of FlaSh's starsense/maphacks from Kespa and even ASL period where he would just know, scan, and the casters are just screaming like wtf how does he know.
I love seeing that sort of star-sense in games from pros: just getting a hunch to sniff out a crazy rare proxy or tech switch etc. Chills everytime. I'll always remember Batool OSL finals game 5 when JD caught that vulture fantasy hopped over the temples on medusa JUST in time with a drone and 2 lings. Guys like Flash, Soulkey, etc just understand this game and their opponents SO GOOD its crazy. Especially back before remastered when the in-game clock wasn't in yet jeez.
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United States10176 Posts
Man Game 2 was crazy.
Really want to see FlaSh attempt to play the 5 fact meta build right now. All these upgrade terran games are sort of feeling the same. I'd love to see how he adapts it and makes it his own.
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Really weird to me that people just buy into the narrative set by some casters, notably Artosis, regarding Flash return this time. Reading the comments on youtube you must think the 5 Fac build was only invented after he went to the military and Flash only knows how to play upgrade Terran, all despite him having some months of practice last year as well.
Like, if Fantasy after 10 years not touching the game, can pull out a note, watch Light's VODs and go on ladder to practice. But somehow Flash is clueless?
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On June 24 2024 01:35 XenOsky wrote:that is beautiful hotkey usage t__________t
For me, those graphs almost resemble a DNA sequence match, almost like the one in Prometheus between the Engineers and Human DNA. And the results are quite conclusive. Its the ANOMALY !!! He is back, indeed 
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Northern Ireland25522 Posts
To those more knowledgeable, how lucky was Flash’s random run and if he tried again how likely would it be that he could somehow replicate it? Assuming he’s in top shape for the sake of this.
I’m a scrub lord in terms of BW knowledge compared to some of you so full disclosure.
I remember one ZvZ where he rolled that on a map he could do a fiendish cheese on, which can’t be done on other maps.
In terms of overall rolling in terms of opponent and matchup was he fortunate, unfortunate or roughly even in that respect?
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On July 02 2024 16:49 tankgirl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2024 09:00 ThunderJunk wrote:
What I'd REALLY like to see is Sharp vs Flash. just wanted to share this here in case you havent seen it yet: Flash vs. Sharp MPL Finals (YT) + Show Spoiler +
That was fantastic.
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United States10176 Posts
On July 03 2024 01:34 TMNT wrote:
Really weird to me that people just buy into the narrative set by some casters, notably Artosis, regarding Flash return this time. Reading the comments on youtube you must think the 5 Fac build was only invented after he went to the military and Flash only knows how to play upgrade Terran, all despite him having some months of practice last year as well.
Like, if Fantasy after 10 years not touching the game, can pull out a note, watch Light's VODs and go on ladder to practice. But somehow Flash is clueless?
I'm sure FlaSh is just testing to see if upgrade terran is better since it's probably closer to his preferred playstyle, but I just mean in the sense that I want to see him actually play it so we have a clue how he looks playing that sort of style.
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On July 03 2024 02:20 WombaT wrote:
To those more knowledgeable, how lucky was Flash’s random run and if he tried again how likely would it be that he could somehow replicate it? Assuming he’s in top shape for the sake of this.
I’m a scrub lord in terms of BW knowledge compared to some of you so full disclosure.
I remember one ZvZ where he rolled that on a map he could do a fiendish cheese on, which can’t be done on other maps.
In terms of overall rolling in terms of opponent and matchup was he fortunate, unfortunate or roughly even in that respect?
Very lucky. For starter, he rolled Terran 6/15 times. And from the 9 games he rolled offraces, he won 6.
Problem is, out of those 6 wins, 4 came off huge BO advantage (3 of which are basically free wins), 1 was a one-off gamble build (hidden Nexus on Eclipse). Only 1 was won based on pure skill (a PvT).
When playing Random as a Terran main, your hardest opponents would be the Zergs, since if you don't roll Terran, you will either play the mirror vs a Zerg main, or play the harder matchup of Protoss in PvZ. Plus, Zerg is least affected by BO choice when facing Random.
Flash was really lucky when he played Larva in the 3rd place match as he rolled Terran twice and rolled Zerg on the only map (Plasma) that gave him the BO free win. He was also lucky against Soma in the semifinals as he rolled Zerg first game on Plasma as well, and rolled Terran twice in game 3 and 4. But  Soma pulled off an upset vs  Flash to prevent Flash got to match point, and in game 5 and 6 when Flash rolled P and Z on normal maps he just couldn't cope with Soma.
On paper when you say Flash got 3rd as Random it sounds really impressive but when you dissect it, it's more about luck than skill.
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On July 03 2024 05:30 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 02:20 WombaT wrote:
To those more knowledgeable, how lucky was Flash’s random run and if he tried again how likely would it be that he could somehow replicate it? Assuming he’s in top shape for the sake of this.
I’m a scrub lord in terms of BW knowledge compared to some of you so full disclosure.
I remember one ZvZ where he rolled that on a map he could do a fiendish cheese on, which can’t be done on other maps.
In terms of overall rolling in terms of opponent and matchup was he fortunate, unfortunate or roughly even in that respect? Very lucky. For starter, he rolled Terran 6/15 times. And from the 9 games he rolled offraces, he won 6. Problem is, out of those 6 wins, 4 came off huge BO advantage (3 of which are basically free wins), 1 was a one-off gamble build (hidden Nexus on Eclipse). Only 1 was won based on pure skill (a PvT). When playing Random as a Terran main, your hardest opponents would be the Zergs, since if you don't roll Terran, you will either play the mirror vs a Zerg main, or play the harder matchup of Protoss in PvZ. Plus, Zerg is least affected by BO choice when facing Random. Flash was really lucky when he played Larva in the 3rd place match as he rolled Terran twice and rolled Zerg on the only map (Plasma) that gave him the BO free win. He was also lucky against Soma in the semifinals as he rolled Zerg first game on Plasma as well, and rolled Terran twice in game 3 and 4. But Soma pulled off an upset vs Flash to prevent Flash got to match point, and in game 5 and 6 when Flash rolled P and Z on normal maps he just couldn't cope with Soma. On paper when you say Flash got 3rd as Random it sounds really impressive but when you dissect it, it's more about luck than skill.
It is funny that everything about him boils down to only luck and BO wins. Luck just seems to only find flash and not the other players. And no BO disadvantage has ever been overcome, especially by someone who actually knows how to play the matchup to it's fullest extent.
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On July 03 2024 06:01 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 05:30 TMNT wrote:On July 03 2024 02:20 WombaT wrote:
To those more knowledgeable, how lucky was Flash’s random run and if he tried again how likely would it be that he could somehow replicate it? Assuming he’s in top shape for the sake of this.
I’m a scrub lord in terms of BW knowledge compared to some of you so full disclosure.
I remember one ZvZ where he rolled that on a map he could do a fiendish cheese on, which can’t be done on other maps.
In terms of overall rolling in terms of opponent and matchup was he fortunate, unfortunate or roughly even in that respect? Very lucky. For starter, he rolled Terran 6/15 times. And from the 9 games he rolled offraces, he won 6. Problem is, out of those 6 wins, 4 came off huge BO advantage (3 of which are basically free wins), 1 was a one-off gamble build (hidden Nexus on Eclipse). Only 1 was won based on pure skill (a PvT). When playing Random as a Terran main, your hardest opponents would be the Zergs, since if you don't roll Terran, you will either play the mirror vs a Zerg main, or play the harder matchup of Protoss in PvZ. Plus, Zerg is least affected by BO choice when facing Random. Flash was really lucky when he played Larva in the 3rd place match as he rolled Terran twice and rolled Zerg on the only map (Plasma) that gave him the BO free win. He was also lucky against Soma in the semifinals as he rolled Zerg first game on Plasma as well, and rolled Terran twice in game 3 and 4. But Soma pulled off an upset vs Flash to prevent Flash got to match point, and in game 5 and 6 when Flash rolled P and Z on normal maps he just couldn't cope with Soma. On paper when you say Flash got 3rd as Random it sounds really impressive but when you dissect it, it's more about luck than skill. It is funny that everything about him boils down to only luck and BO wins. Luck just seems to only find flash and not the other players. And no BO disadvantage has ever been overcome, especially by someone who actually knows how to play the matchup to it's fullest extent.
Who said "everything about him"? Who said "only luck"? You. Not me.
But seriously, instead of making generic comment like "overcome BO disadvantage", why don't you explain to Soma on how to play ZvZ on Plasma if you don't know your opponent is Zerg? Like, the only thing Flash needs to do is tech up to Muta on 1 Hatch and 0 Zerling and no matter what Soma does he will always be in deep shit once he finds out Flash's race. But sure, overcome BO disadvantage. Quite easy to say so when you're on the side of the BO advantage. Let Flash do a BBS and see how he can overcome a 5 Pool lol, which is exactly what happened to Rush in the 3rd game vs Flash.
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On July 03 2024 06:19 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 06:01 NoobSkills wrote:On July 03 2024 05:30 TMNT wrote:On July 03 2024 02:20 WombaT wrote:
To those more knowledgeable, how lucky was Flash’s random run and if he tried again how likely would it be that he could somehow replicate it? Assuming he’s in top shape for the sake of this.
I’m a scrub lord in terms of BW knowledge compared to some of you so full disclosure.
I remember one ZvZ where he rolled that on a map he could do a fiendish cheese on, which can’t be done on other maps.
In terms of overall rolling in terms of opponent and matchup was he fortunate, unfortunate or roughly even in that respect? Very lucky. For starter, he rolled Terran 6/15 times. And from the 9 games he rolled offraces, he won 6. Problem is, out of those 6 wins, 4 came off huge BO advantage (3 of which are basically free wins), 1 was a one-off gamble build (hidden Nexus on Eclipse). Only 1 was won based on pure skill (a PvT). When playing Random as a Terran main, your hardest opponents would be the Zergs, since if you don't roll Terran, you will either play the mirror vs a Zerg main, or play the harder matchup of Protoss in PvZ. Plus, Zerg is least affected by BO choice when facing Random. Flash was really lucky when he played Larva in the 3rd place match as he rolled Terran twice and rolled Zerg on the only map (Plasma) that gave him the BO free win. He was also lucky against Soma in the semifinals as he rolled Zerg first game on Plasma as well, and rolled Terran twice in game 3 and 4. But Soma pulled off an upset vs Flash to prevent Flash got to match point, and in game 5 and 6 when Flash rolled P and Z on normal maps he just couldn't cope with Soma. On paper when you say Flash got 3rd as Random it sounds really impressive but when you dissect it, it's more about luck than skill. It is funny that everything about him boils down to only luck and BO wins. Luck just seems to only find flash and not the other players. And no BO disadvantage has ever been overcome, especially by someone who actually knows how to play the matchup to it's fullest extent. Who said "everything about him"? Who said "only luck"? You. Not me. But seriously, instead of making generic comment like "overcome BO disadvantage", why don't you explain to Soma on how to play ZvZ on Plasma if you don't know your opponent is Zerg? Like, the only thing Flash needs to do is tech up to Muta on 1 Hatch and 0 Zerling and no matter what Soma does he will always be in deep shit once he finds out Flash's race. But sure, overcome BO disadvantage. Quite easy to say so when you're on the side of the BO advantage. Let Flash do a BBS and see how he can overcome a 5 Pool lol, which is exactly what happened to Rush in the 3rd game vs Flash.
I mean your last 3 comments in this thread are largely about it being only luck and BO wins right? Excuse me if I was wrong. I mean you gave credit to him rolling T, but again isn't that also luck?
Okay let's "explain" why don't you go back and look at all the ZvZ's we've had in the ASL from the top notch zergs. Then just watch the BO and look at the results. This one is the best and funniest because there isn't a massive wide variance in ZvZ very little room to grab an edge that isn't given to you. Now count how many times that BO auto win wound up being a loss. This btw isn't specifically about Flash's game you might be accurate in that one that he was indeed ahead for whatever reason, but the general concept of BO wins which simply isn't true or at least not nearly as impactful as you'd like to pretend it is.
On July 03 2024 02:20 WombaT wrote:
To those more knowledgeable, how lucky was Flash’s random run and if he tried again how likely would it be that he could somehow replicate it? Assuming he’s in top shape for the sake of this.
I’m a scrub lord in terms of BW knowledge compared to some of you so full disclosure.
I remember one ZvZ where he rolled that on a map he could do a fiendish cheese on, which can’t be done on other maps.
In terms of overall rolling in terms of opponent and matchup was he fortunate, unfortunate or roughly even in that respect?
Some will call it luck or BO wins or some insane insurmountable advantage due to being random or whatever mixture of those they can find.
Was there luck? Sure, some things went his way. But eventually everything he does can't be lucky, especially in matchups where he is playing people who have spent their career playing that matchup, meanwhile he has limited practice. He got caught out just as much as he caught people out. I think some of it had to do with pro's no realizing that he probably wasn't a late game threat, and to just play a bit on the side of pushing the game towards late game without falling massively behind. Instead they leaned in a bit too much and met with someone who is tactically smarter in those times, or he snuck an expansion which trapped them mentally into thinking they were winning.
I'd say that the luck based gameplay evened out for the most part, and his decision making and overall big picture understanding did the rest.
As to your question about replication? Now? Hell no, he isn't even Flash yet, he can't upgrade to random flash. I'm not sure when the next ASL is, but I'm not even sure he'll be ready by then. As for if he ever could have repeated it, like if his military service were delayed and he stayed for another ASL, I think he could. I'm not sure he ever wins an ASL with it, but I think given a ton of extra time on it he might make the finals eventually.
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The whole point of random in BW is that the opponent doesn't know what race you are. If picking random in BW worked the same but revealed your race to opponent during loading screen before match, do you think Flash would have had as much success in his random run?
It was impressive how good his off-races were but picking random should be banned by ASL because it adds a whole extra layer of RNG bullshit that sucks and isn't fun for viewers (at least not to me and I think a big percentage of people on TL. not sure about korean audience). I would be a lot more impressed with flash if he just picked zerg or protoss and got 3rd place instead of random.
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On July 03 2024 07:04 NoobSkills wrote:
I mean your last 3 comments in this thread are largely about it being only luck and BO wins right? Excuse me if I was wrong. I mean you gave credit to him rolling T, but again isn't that also luck?
Okay let's "explain" why don't you go back and look at all the ZvZ's we've had in the ASL from the top notch zergs. Then just watch the BO and look at the results. This one is the best and funniest because there isn't a massive wide variance in ZvZ very little room to grab an edge that isn't given to you. Now count how many times that BO auto win wound up being a loss. This btw isn't specifically about Flash's game you might be accurate in that one that he was indeed ahead for whatever reason, but the general concept of BO wins which simply isn't true or at least not nearly as impactful as you'd like to pretend it is.
You can't over-generalize like that. While it's true that not every BO advantage translates into a win, that statement has very little to do with Flash's games that ASL. The advantage he got from those games was huge. Like, bigger than cross spawn Nexus first, just to imagine.
- For example, vs Rush he went 7 Pool against BBS. First scout. Even I can win the game from there lol. Nothing with overcoming BO disadvantage there for Rush.
- The two ZvZ on Plasma are soooooo different than the usual ZvZ we see on standard maps that there's nothing to compare. Since you dont produce a single Ling on that map in ZvZ, it basically becomes who gets Mutas first will win (unless you have 100 apm, micro like a noob and forget to build overlords). And of course the Random player gets them first. You put any BSL Zerg there and they can win from there.
- You want another example of not being able to overcome BO disadvantage? Flash vs Soma on Benzene in the same series, except that this time Flash was the one at the receiving end. 3 Hatch before Pool vs 9 Pool. He typed gg. No overcoming anything here.
- Then you have the two games vs Snow which were won off a hidden Nexus and Snow doing a non-build for PvP.
The problem is, your original point is something like "Flash's random run is insane, he played the other races so well, even better than the players who main those races". It would have been true had Flash been at the receiving end of the BO disadvantage and overcome it with skills. But it's the opposite. He won a grand total of 1 game based on skills alone. The rest was helped massively by playing as random. He didn't show amazing Reaver or Muta micro, or insane macro as Protoss or Zerg. He played one PvZ, in which he couldn't defend Soma's 9 Pool despite the Lings going to the wrong base in the first place, forgetting to cancel the Nexus before Lings destroyed it because he failed the multitasking battle. He went full on Speedling all in vs Soma in another ZvZ (and lost), because he knew he wouldn't win a proper ZvZ on standard map.
To sum up, his 3rd place as random looks impressive on paper. But when you dissect his play as offrace, it's not impressive at all.
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On July 03 2024 09:38 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 07:04 NoobSkills wrote:
I mean your last 3 comments in this thread are largely about it being only luck and BO wins right? Excuse me if I was wrong. I mean you gave credit to him rolling T, but again isn't that also luck?
Okay let's "explain" why don't you go back and look at all the ZvZ's we've had in the ASL from the top notch zergs. Then just watch the BO and look at the results. This one is the best and funniest because there isn't a massive wide variance in ZvZ very little room to grab an edge that isn't given to you. Now count how many times that BO auto win wound up being a loss. This btw isn't specifically about Flash's game you might be accurate in that one that he was indeed ahead for whatever reason, but the general concept of BO wins which simply isn't true or at least not nearly as impactful as you'd like to pretend it is.
You can't over-generalize like that. While it's true that not every BO advantage translates into a win, that statement has very little to do with Flash's games that ASL. The advantage he got from those games was huge. Like, bigger than cross spawn Nexus first, just to imagine. - For example, vs Rush he went 7 Pool against BBS. First scout. Even I can win the game from there lol. Nothing with overcoming BO disadvantage there for Rush. - The two ZvZ on Plasma are soooooo different than the usual ZvZ we see on standard maps that there's nothing to compare. Since you dont produce a single Ling on that map in ZvZ, it basically becomes who gets Mutas first will win (unless you have 100 apm, micro like a noob and forget to build overlords). And of course the Random player gets them first. You put any BSL Zerg there and they can win from there. - You want another example of not being able to overcome BO disadvantage? Flash vs Soma on Benzene in the same series, except that this time Flash was the one at the receiving end. 3 Hatch before Pool vs 9 Pool. He typed gg. No overcoming anything here. - Then you have the two games vs Snow which were won off a hidden Nexus and Snow doing a non-build for PvP. The problem is, your original point is something like " Flash's random run is insane, he played the other races so well, even better than the players who main those races". It would have been true had Flash been at the receiving end of the BO disadvantage and overcome it with skills. But it's the opposite. He won a grand total of 1 game based on skills alone. The rest was helped massively by playing as random. He didn't show amazing Reaver or Muta micro, or insane macro as Protoss or Zerg. He played one PvZ, in which he couldn't defend Soma's 9 Pool despite the Lings going to the wrong base in the first place, forgetting to cancel the Nexus before Lings destroyed it because he failed the multitasking battle. He went full on Speedling all in vs Soma in another ZvZ (and lost), because he knew he wouldn't win a proper ZvZ on standard map. To sum up, his 3rd place as random looks impressive on paper. But when you dissect his play as offrace, it's not impressive at all.
His advantage in those games from BO's and random alone were that significant? Lol?
-Flash vs Rush if unscouted the BBS is at worst place equal. The difference was the decision to scout. Instead his build was interrupted, not in full effect so it isn't even a BO win.
- ZvZ on plasma before any sort of variance in build was made vs SOMA, soma already had supply lead, and the advantage in scouting, there was no difference, except he didn't make his Lair as early as possible.
-Flash on benzine vs soma - a full on cheese economically, not a BO win that got called out by a normal build, but an insanely greedy build that is only successful if your opponent goes hatch first.
-Flash vs snow - again the decision to make the hidden nexus and play accordingly was his call. At the point of the split in builds they're near equal in terms of supply and money. Decision making. Due to that loss, snow overscouts, and then still winds up ahead with a 2base economy. He lost like 5 probes with 2 nexus it wasn't nearly as deep of a loss. The issue is that flash got to full send his army vs one small portion of snows to secure the game.
And we could argue circles about the positions in these match ups, but in reality a lot of them took decision making losses outside of the affect of random or BO. Difference is these individuals have played these matchups for years and years and should have shut it down.
BTW I'm not claiming Flash mastered zerg or protoss skill sets, because clearly that wasn't the case. Instead he made decision based gameplay moves when he was behind or even ahead to secure a win or attempt to do so. And yes, I certainly do believe that a ZvZ where when everything about the build is equal at the point at which you scout the random player should go to the guy who plays ZvZ all the time. And see nobody is claiming that his run showed complete mastery of P or Z, but that his run, and decision making can carry him through that far alone, despite this being his first venture into random.
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Northern Ireland25522 Posts
He clearly planned very well for various eventualities, and was a very interesting and hyped run to follow. It did feel to me that I’d rather it remain a one-off as random can feel extremely coin flippy.
Openers in both SC games are pretty optimised around racial matchups so it does make things a bit wonky with that unknown factored in.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5hwxynL.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/611qVNp.png)
