EPTPlease remember that most Palestinians are not Hamas. It's a fairly simple nuance, not very hard to understand.
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 293
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Magic Powers
Austria3326 Posts
Please remember that most Palestinians are not Hamas. It's a fairly simple nuance, not very hard to understand. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9099 Posts
I read the interview with the released hostage that came out today and it made some things clear for me. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2eem7e7v30o They are mostly starving poor people who are given money by Hamas to hide a hostage in their hovel for a couple of days. So yeah, MP, most Palestinians are not Hamas, in fact, I would suggest that a sizeable number of the people Israel call Hamas are not Hamas either. | ||
KwarK
United States41516 Posts
On June 19 2024 15:52 Uldridge wrote: I don't really see these as contradictory because you simply can't have inherent Palestinian antisemitism. Claiming an inherent property to an entire demography is kind of self defeating. However, just like there was no German antisemitism, the German antisemitism arose through well constructed propaganda, and this is also how Hamas is able to (next to the Israelites not being the most friendly neighbors), make antisemitism arise in Palestinians. Lay bare where it hurts and point to a common enemy. It's a contemporary framework, not baked into their genetic blueprint. Germany was antisemitic long before the Nazis. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4416 Posts
But how do you look at the antisemitism pervading into the culture before fascism took over? Although I'm interested in the answer, I'm not entirely sure how this will be constructive for this thread. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3326 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22335 Posts
On June 19 2024 20:42 Magic Powers wrote: The US is also antisemitic, that is if you ignore the Americans who aren't. The reason Israel is where it is, is because the rest of the world was also anti-semitic. It's also literally used by people like Biden + Show Spoiler + there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe — were there no Israel. | ||
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KwarK
United States41516 Posts
On June 19 2024 20:14 Uldridge wrote: Okay, significant uptick, following their destruction then. But how do you look at the antisemitism pervading into the culture before fascism took over? Although I'm interested in the answer, I'm not entirely sure how this will be constructive for this thread. https://www.amazon.com/Pity-All-History-Germany-1743-1933/dp/0805059644 | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3326 Posts
On June 19 2024 22:04 GreenHorizons wrote: The reason Israel is where it is, is because the rest of the world was also anti-semitic. It's also literally used by people like Biden + Show Spoiler + there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe — were there no Israel. In that same speech back in December Biden also implied that both Israel's and US's administration need to not overstep boundaries in this war. What made him say that? Several crimes had already been committed at the time, and we know Biden was aware of these crimes because we knew about them. So was he warning of potential for crime or of the continuation of crimes? I think it's the latter, but he made sure not to use accusatory language. As we know, his more direct accusations in later months were received with hostile remarks by Netanyahu, so I think Biden didn't want to wake the sleeping dog (until he had no other choice). "Speaking at the reception, the president says the US will “continue to provide military assistance to Israel until they get rid of Hamas, but we have to be careful — they have to be careful. The whole world’s public opinion can shift overnight, we can’t let that happen.” " The quote you posted is a continuation, I think it's important to include the first part: " “As I said after the [Oct.7] attack, my commitment to the safety of the Jewish people, and the security of Israel, its right to exist as an independent Jewish state, is unshakeable. “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who is safe,” says the president, to loud applause." By stating that Israel represents a literal safe haven for Jewish people, Biden is clarifying that this is why the US must stay committed to the delivery of offensive military equipment. This is obviously meant to quell protests that are pointing to Israel's crimes and the massive pile of Palestinian bodies. There would be little need to use such strong language painting Israel as a safe haven - and not just a formal ally in need of help. Israel wasn't fighting defensively anymore, they were fully committed to their own counter-offensive, and that's why Biden needed more convincing language to maintain support for Netanyahu's war. Imagine it like Ukraine reclaiming all of its territory and then suddenly going on a counter-offensive inside Russia causing thousands of Russian civilian deaths. Support would immediately plummet. Biden would absolutely lose it because he wouldn't find words to justify it. He'd be forced to withdraw all support immediately. Unless... ... thank god there's the "Jewish existence" argument. It wouldn't work with Ukraine, but it works like a charm with Israel. And no word of Palestinian suffering in Biden's speech. Not one word. | ||
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KwarK
United States41516 Posts
On June 19 2024 20:42 Magic Powers wrote: The US is also antisemitic, that is if you ignore the Americans who aren't. It’s not a great counterpoint. There are significant differences between the US and 19th century Germany. For example the US doesn’t have dozens of laws on the books regulating the conduct, religious practices, professions, names, registrations, and property of Jews. The argument isn’t that Germany was antisemitic because of the presence of antisemites, an argument that could be applied to anywhere as you say, it’s that Germany was antisemitic because it was antisemitic. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3326 Posts
On June 19 2024 23:38 KwarK wrote: It’s not a great counterpoint. There are significant differences between the US and 19th century Germany. For example the US doesn’t have dozens of laws on the books regulating the conduct, religious practices, professions, names, registrations, and property of Jews. The argument isn’t that Germany was antisemitic because of the presence of antisemites, an argument that could be applied to anywhere as you say, it’s that Germany was antisemitic because it was antisemitic. 19th century Germany was pre-Holocaust, and it was also prior to plenty of other genocides and terrible wars. It was a completely different time. If you compare the US today to the 19th century, of course you won't find that many similarities. Compare 19th century Germany to 19th century US though, suddenly everything looks very different. The US was very racist and slavery was still legal. It could've gone a completely different direction, very similar to that of Germany. The fact that it didn't is an incredible privilege. Germany went the other direction and turned fascist because of a powerful group called the "Nazis", which claimed power and turned the whole country into a totalitarian shithole. After WW2, Germany went the opposite direction, just as the US did prior. Many of these events took place within just a few generations. History and politics are extremely fickle, and fortunately in Western countries in particular people were able to go in a more progressive, liberal direction instead of holding on to an oppressive past. So maybe you shouldn't put the US on a pedestal. | ||
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KwarK
United States41516 Posts
On June 19 2024 23:41 Magic Powers wrote: 19th century Germany was pre-Holocaust, and it was also prior to plenty of other genocides and terrible wars. It was a completely different time. If you compare the US today to the 19th century, of course you won't find that many similarities. Compare 19th century Germany to 19th century US though, suddenly everything looks very different. The US was very racist and slavery was still legal. It could've gone a completely different direction, very similar to that of Germany. The fact that it didn't is an incredible privilege. Germany went the other direction and turned fascist because of a powerful group called the "Nazis", which claimed power and turned the whole country into a totalitarian shithole. After WW2, Germany went the opposite direction, just as the US did prior. Many of these events took place within just a few generations. History and politics are extremely fickle, and fortunately in Western countries in particular people were able to go in a more progressive, liberal direction instead of holding on to an oppressive past. So maybe you shouldn't put the US on a pedestal. You’re arguing against something completely different to anything I said. When did I put the US on a pedestal? You brought up the US and I said it was irrelevant. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3326 Posts
On June 19 2024 23:58 KwarK wrote: You’re arguing against something completely different to anything I said. When did I put the US on a pedestal? You brought up the US and I said it was irrelevant. "For example the US doesn’t have dozens of laws on the books regulating the conduct, religious practices, professions, names, registrations, and property of Jews." The US in the 19th century was a horrible place for black people. That's your pedestal right there. You're completely ignoring US's oppressive, racist history and fingerwagging at Germany for having gone in a direction that lots of other fascist or totalitarian countries also did. These things didn't happen because every single person in every country loved racism and oppression so much, it was because there were oppressive groups and dictators in power that forced everyone to obey. | ||
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BlackJack
United States9965 Posts
On June 19 2024 18:26 Uldridge wrote: Sure, but you did to Stilt as I've done to you. You've put words in his mouth. I don't think Stilt argues that there is no Palestinian antisemitism. I think he implies that alot of the current Palestianian strife is with Israelites instead of a propagandized hatred for Jews instilled by Hamas. If you're not sure, you need to ask for clarification instead of arguing based on your own assumptions of how someone worded things as a non-native English speaker. Seems like people can come to different conclusions/assumptions when reading the same thing. Maybe he could've clarified in a future post, but I felt like your wording seemed unnecessarily dismissive. No. You missed the beginning of the discussion. Stilt said the people that went over the fence on 7/10 only did it to kill Israelis, not Jews. Not just Palestinians but even the worst of the worst murderous Hamas thugs have nothing against the Jews. It’s laughable. | ||
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KwarK
United States41516 Posts
On June 20 2024 00:11 Magic Powers wrote: "For example the US doesn’t have dozens of laws on the books regulating the conduct, religious practices, professions, names, registrations, and property of Jews." The US in the 19th century was a horrible place for black people. That's your pedestal right there. You're completely ignoring US's oppressive, racist history and fingerwagging at Germany for having gone in a direction that lots of other fascist or totalitarian countries also did. These things didn't happen because every single person in every country loved racism and oppression so much, it was because there were oppressive groups and dictators in power that forced everyone to obey. What are you talking about? Reread the exchange and try again. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3326 Posts
On June 20 2024 02:57 KwarK wrote: What are you talking about? Reread the exchange and try again. I did reread it multiple times. Not sure why you're assuming otherwise? Your argument makes no sense because pre-WW2 Germany didn't put Jews in concentration camps, that only happened in WW2 after the Nazis came to power. Meanwhile the US is an example of a country that did the exact opposite with its black population, by fighting a war for their liberation. That war was fortunately won by the liberators, but it could've ended very differently. And then what? Do you think black people would be free now? It's the people in power who call the shots. You don't understand historic events because you don't look at the individual people of a country as separate from the country's rulers. You don't understand why the Nazis came to power and exterminated the Jews while the US did the opposite and liberated its slaves. You don't understand it because you conflate the leadership of a country with the people of a country. This will never result in you understanding the history of any of the countries. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4416 Posts
On June 20 2024 02:53 BlackJack wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On June 19 2024 18:26 Uldridge wrote: Sure, but you did to Stilt as I've done to you. You've put words in his mouth. I don't think Stilt argues that there is no Palestinian antisemitism. I think he implies that alot of the current Palestianian strife is with Israelites instead of a propagandized hatred for Jews instilled by Hamas. If you're not sure, you need to ask for clarification instead of arguing based on your own assumptions of how someone worded things as a non-native English speaker. Seems like people can come to different conclusions/assumptions when reading the same thing. Maybe he could've clarified in a future post, but I felt like your wording seemed unnecessarily dismissive. No. You missed the beginning of the discussion. Stilt said the people that went over the fence on 7/10 only did it to kill Israelis, not Jews. Not just Palestinians but even the worst of the worst murderous Hamas thugs have nothing against the Jews. It’s laughable. I've read it as: it was a retaliation against Israel, against its citizens, not against Jews and their religion. Of course it's kinda mixed up because Israelites happen to be mostly Jewish and the propaganda used in Gaza probably isn't always nuanced. Do you think they distinguish Jews from Israelites or if they untangle those two? Can we make that distinction for them? | ||
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KwarK
United States41516 Posts
On June 20 2024 03:59 Magic Powers wrote: I did reread it multiple times. Not sure why you're assuming otherwise? Your argument makes no sense because pre-WW2 Germany didn't put Jews in concentration camps, that only happened in WW2 after the Nazis came to power. Meanwhile the US is an example of a country that did the exact opposite with its black population, by fighting a war for their liberation. That war was fortunately won by the liberators, but it could've ended very differently. And then what? Do you think black people would be free now? It's the people in power who call the shots. You don't understand historic events because you don't look at the individual people of a country as separate from the country's rulers. You don't understand why the Nazis came to power and exterminated the Jews while the US did the opposite and liberated its slaves. You don't understand it because you conflate the leadership of a country with the people of a country. This will never result in you understanding the history of any of the countries. I said that antisemitism was prevalent in Germany before the Nazis, rather than being created by the Nazis. You brought up the US (presumably today) and claimed that it was also true of the US if you ignore where it was not true. I said that there are significant differences between the US and historical Germany that make that comparison fail. You then brought up historical United States and slavery. I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Why did you bring up the US? Why did you bring up slavery? How does any of this relate in any way to my extremely clear and simple statement that Germany was antisemitic long before the Nazis. To summarize, what the fuck are you talking about? | ||
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BlackJack
United States9965 Posts
On June 20 2024 04:09 Uldridge wrote: I've read it as: it was a retaliation against Israel, against its citizens, not against Jews and their religion. Of course it's kinda mixed up because Israelites happen to be mostly Jewish and the propaganda used in Gaza probably isn't always nuanced. Do you think they distinguish Jews from Israelites or if they untangle those two? Can we make that distinction for them? Which is why I asked him straight up if he was trying to say that Hamas was not anti-Jew racist. He doubled down and said that anyone saying such a thing is in fact anti-arab racist and trying to set an agenda to justify Israeli's war crimes. It wasn't until Mohdoo gave quotes of Hamas of calling for the killing of Jews, and not just the Israeli Jews, that he conceded they are anti-Jew racist but that there reason for being so is because of X Y Z. | ||
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BlackJack
United States9965 Posts
MP: US is antisemitic too if you ignore those that aren't Kwark: antisemitism in US is different from German pre-war antisemitism because of X Y Z. MP: Well in the 19th century the US enslaved black people It's an inexplicable pivot that has nothing to do with what Kwark said. Possibly you are inferring that Kwark thinks that pre-war Germans were extraordinarily more evil than other people of the time so you felt compelled to bring up other bad things that people were doing of the time. But Kwark's point was simply that antisemitism persisted in German pre-war society. He's not even making a moral judgement on the German people. To counter his argument you have to disprove that antisemitism persisted in German society, not that other people were also doing wrong things. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9099 Posts
I don't think it comes from a bad place, but it can easily become very stretched as to the accuracy of it. The US isn't particularly anti-Semitic to be honest. Then again, pre war Germany was a very different kind of antisemitism to what we see from Hamas and Palestinians. German antisemitism was structural and baked in to their laws before the war, which means that the population were likely to be anti-Semitic or permit antisemitism because of the exposure effect. In Gaza, I would suggest antisemitism (at least in the modern day) is a result of having a reason to hate Israelis (and vica versa with Israeli anti-arab racism) based on experiences and the general horror of their situation. When you are in the middle of a war, racism is a whole different thing to when you're a peacetime country and you're racist against a section of your own population. | ||
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