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France12738 Posts
On January 12 2024 06:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:On January 11 2024 10:44 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”. The fact it was such an upset proves the point that it's harder for old guys. Also multiple pros have said they slowed down with age, like Inno and Dark. I trust them over you. I don’t know if that’s age or just gradual burnout or motivation issues, those guys have a hell of a lot of miles on the clock after all. Players are atop various games that are way older than conventional wisdom from years ago would have considered the cutoff of viability age wise after all
From what I see, even Serral has slowed down a bit since his 21-22 yo years
Prime is probably 20-22 since you are old enough for experience to matter, and almost at your fastest
You can still be pretty fast until 25-26 but it’s still a decay
It’s match-up dependent though, Ryung can still hang out in TvT because of his tactical mind since the match-up is relatively slow, but you see that he would dominate even more if he was younger (and he would struggle less in TvZ, albeit he has never been the best, even during the sniper incident)
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Northern Ireland22528 Posts
On January 12 2024 06:46 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 06:43 WombaT wrote:On January 12 2024 03:04 Charoisaur wrote:On January 11 2024 10:44 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 10 2024 21:20 Poopi wrote:On January 10 2024 11:57 Maksim2010 wrote:On January 06 2024 20:56 AxiomB wrote:
I still hold MC, Zest and Rain as the best Protoss players of all time in Sc2. Artosis said some good points, at least contributing to the need for Protoss change. Sry but Rain and MC played about 10 years ago competitive SC2. The game is completely different and they never played at the current level skill wise. They were goats in their era no doubt but are they the best of all time? Definitely not u only can talk about Zest maybe stats who dominated in any era showing it vs any player Reynor,serral,Clem,dark,rogue to name a few. Current skill is not necessarily better than back then tbh: most pros are too old to be in their prime and there is less competition all around. Plus since the meta / patches keep changing, it’s often more about reaching enough skill to dominate with the strongest race Current skill is not better than back then? Are u serious? Do u even watch or play the game? Watch some FPV of clem,reynor,dark,maru then watch some games of 2012… u must be trolling. Too old to be in their prime? We talking about pc gaming not real sport. It’s about how much time u put into the game. Probably around 45-50 where age would start to matter if your hands become stiff. Just look ryung over 30+ years just beating Clem the current ”in his prime”. The fact it was such an upset proves the point that it's harder for old guys. Also multiple pros have said they slowed down with age, like Inno and Dark. I trust them over you. I don’t know if that’s age or just gradual burnout or motivation issues, those guys have a hell of a lot of miles on the clock after all. Players are atop various games that are way older than conventional wisdom from years ago would have considered the cutoff of viability age wise after all From what I see, even Serral has slowed down a bit since his 21-22 yo years Prime is probably 20-22 since you are old enough for experience to matter, and almost at your fastest You can still be pretty fast until 25-26 but it’s still a decay It’s match-up dependent though, Ryung can still hang out in TvT because of his tactical mind since the match-up is relatively slow, but you see that he would dominate even more if he was younger (and he would struggle less in TvZ, albeit he has never been the best, even during the sniper incident)
I wish I could be as slow as Serral :p
I reckon some of the absolute top guys do drop a little in raw speed, but it’s possible they’re adding some efficiency in their play so they’re just as quick at actually doing things.
Serral is clean as hell, Reynor’s always been quicker but it’s never super apparent if you’re not looking at FPVs or raw apm numbers.
I’m not a pro obviously but if you could over time clean up some of the spam and play more efficiently, it would seem worth doing to me from both a general economy of action thing, but also from a hand longevity sense. Be interested to know if folks have consciously tried this!
Or earlier Clem whose speed was insane, but had a certain sloppiness and if he couldn’t outspeed his opponent he’d eventually hit a brick wall. Now he’s still blazingly fast but it’s more considered and rounded, maybe a little less outright speed but utilised better
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As I've gotten older, I haven't actually experienced my APM slowing down, but I've definitely experienced my reaction times slowing down, and that's had a massive impact.
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On January 11 2024 09:27 dph114 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 08:21 Xamo wrote:On January 10 2024 03:42 ZeroByte13 wrote:
What if EMP removed only 75 or even 50 shields? Would this make PvT more fair? The easiest way to re-balance PvT without touching PvZ is probably to reduce or get rid of the (gimmicky?) “features” that Terran units have that work only against Protoss. AFAIK these are Ghosts EMP affecting shields and widow mine extra damage to shields. From these two I’d rather tune down the widow mine. It is just too cost-effective during the whole game for its cost and build time. It demolishes zealots with very few counterplay options, as these are almost unmicroable when they are charging. The only counterplay is not to engage, which is detrimental to the game. A single WM shot that hits 4 full-health zealots does 100+50+3*(40+25)=345 instant damage. That’s insane. Those same 4 zealots together would need almost 5 in-game seconds of fully attacking something to do the same damage. And cost 400 vs 75/25… i like how you conviently forget that protoss have unit that can 1shot half of terran army in 1sec
Do you mean that the disruptor balanced everything? Then clearly not anymore, perhaps partially because of the recent nerf. But I do not think that reverting the nerf is a good idea. It favours too much a specific style. Whereas a small nerf to WMs damage against shields would strengthen zealots and therefore favour several Protoss styles.
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Northern Ireland22528 Posts
On January 13 2024 08:30 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2024 09:27 dph114 wrote:On January 10 2024 08:21 Xamo wrote:On January 10 2024 03:42 ZeroByte13 wrote:
What if EMP removed only 75 or even 50 shields? Would this make PvT more fair? The easiest way to re-balance PvT without touching PvZ is probably to reduce or get rid of the (gimmicky?) “features” that Terran units have that work only against Protoss. AFAIK these are Ghosts EMP affecting shields and widow mine extra damage to shields. From these two I’d rather tune down the widow mine. It is just too cost-effective during the whole game for its cost and build time. It demolishes zealots with very few counterplay options, as these are almost unmicroable when they are charging. The only counterplay is not to engage, which is detrimental to the game. A single WM shot that hits 4 full-health zealots does 100+50+3*(40+25)=345 instant damage. That’s insane. Those same 4 zealots together would need almost 5 in-game seconds of fully attacking something to do the same damage. And cost 400 vs 75/25… i like how you conviently forget that protoss have unit that can 1shot half of terran army in 1sec Do you mean that the disruptor balanced everything? Then clearly not anymore, perhaps partially because of the recent nerf. But I do not think that reverting the nerf is a good idea. It favours too much a specific style. Whereas a small nerf to WMs damage against shields would strengthen zealots and therefore favour several Protoss styles.
I have long, long maintained that getting rid of charge and giving Zealots speedy legs would help
1. Makes them more microable, it’s less of a crap shoot where how they charge can win or lose a battle
2. Makes them generally faster, and gives more map coverage
3. They’ll move faster than the death ball so be less A-move friendly
But in general Protoss are ludicrously fragile due to years and years of consistently bad design decisions.
No other race is reliant on hit or miss AoE to nearly the same extent.
On the flip side when you do get to late game it’s sometimes absurdly difficult to ever engage a Protoss ball
1/2 disruptors you’re relying on huge hits and if they don’t land you might be overrun, but this flips when you have 8/9 and storm support
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Master's Colliseum Protoss report incoming:
Classic v Solar : 2 - 1, nice games by Classic, using blink effectively, Solar looked average and far below the heights Zerg are capable of.
Trigger v Cure: 0 - 2, Cure showing Korean Terran strength, basically bullying the Protoss, unfortunate, as Trigger played really well to qualify.
What we learnt;
Game 2 revealed Trigger has potential.
Classic still has the moments of brilliance (few and far between at the moment mind you) that saw the Chintoss once threaten finalists the globe over.
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so
given the lack of any Protoss in the Ro8 at IEM Katowice and the lack of any Toss Premier wins since November 2022
and at least to break up the monotony of the random Terran balance whine threads that have popped up since Serral vs Maru
can we get that balance patch already?
as already stated and well argued many times before, there is no reason to believe that Protoss players are universally this much worse than Zerg/Terrans--and as Lambo very well stated, it doesn't really matter anyway, since for the good of the competitive scene and SC2 as an ESPORT all three races need to be viable at the highest level. And as well argued in this thread, there are plenty of even minor balance changes that could be made that would dramatically increase Protoss stability and viability particularly in TvP (which is the real problem match-up at the moment).
We Protoss are humble people. We're not asking for a patch or mappool that would make current Protoss players on the same level as Serral or Maru. We're not angling for GOAT status. We just want Protoss to have a chance.
is that so much to ask?
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Northern Ireland22528 Posts
On February 13 2024 06:12 Captain Peabody wrote:
so
given the lack of any Protoss in the Ro8 at IEM Katowice and the lack of any Toss Premier wins since November 2022
and at least to break up the monotony of the random Terran balance whine threads that have popped up since Serral vs Maru
can we get that balance patch already?
as already stated and well argued many times before, there is no reason to believe that Protoss players are universally this much worse than Zerg/Terrans--and as Lambo very well stated, it doesn't really matter anyway, since for the good of the competitive scene and SC2 as an ESPORT all three races need to be viable at the highest level. And as well argued in this thread, there are plenty of even minor balance changes that could be made that would dramatically increase Protoss stability and viability particularly in TvP (which is the real problem match-up at the moment).
We Protoss are humble people. We're not asking for a patch or mappool that would make current Protoss players on the same level as Serral or Maru. We're not angling for GOAT status. We just want Protoss to have a chance.
is that so much to ask?
On past evidence, yes.
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Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
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On February 13 2024 08:03 Nasigil wrote:
Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
This is what I've been saying.
If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances.
I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years?
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Something that gives Protoss a better defense without any influence to Protoss offensive capabilities would be nice. How that could work I'm not sure. Maybe give all shields (units and buildings) +1 when in Range of a Nexus or sth like that?
If you buff a unit even the slighest bit, Protoss will abuse it and the Book of Protoss BS will get a new edition
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On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 08:03 Nasigil wrote:
Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
This is what I've been saying. If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances. I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years?
good point, the map design is just so bland and boring in SC2 it is astonishing. Why not make small, skirmish like maps
or wild cross over canyons / islands or huge strategic positions like in WoL. It would shake up the meta, the gameplay and the winrates so much, no patch could ever acomplish.
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On February 13 2024 20:17 Kitaen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 13 2024 08:03 Nasigil wrote:
Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
This is what I've been saying. If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances. I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years? good point, the map design is just so bland and boring in SC2 it is astonishing. Why not make small, skirmish like maps or wild cross over canyons / islands or huge strategic positions like in WoL. It would shake up the meta, the gameplay and the winrates so much, no patch could ever acomplish.
Uff small maps with 12 worker start is sure to spell disaster. Flashback to all those BS WoL maps...
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On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 08:03 Nasigil wrote:
Even if we get a much deserving patch, the only player that'll benefit from it and might actually making a break through in premiere tournaments is still just herO.
Classic showed flashes of brilliance when he beat Serral and Reynor in Gamers8 group stage but hasn't had much showing after that.
Showtime is just not on their level.
I really hope Stats and Parting could improve to a level that's similar to Classic. I have high hopes for Parting. sOs not so much. I don't think LotV allows for same kind of strategic depth that he's known for.
Do we know anything about Zest's future plan?
This is what I've been saying. If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances. I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years?
Protoss wasn't winning anything big even when it was Stats, Zest, sOs, and Trap. There's no reason HerO shouldn't be a real contender for anything. The man won a recent (by Protoss standards) Code S.
Protoss needs a buff on the scale of bringing back the MSC or making Skytoss viable again (or give Protoss some viable groundtoss comp which would never happen).
Removing the MSC without real compensation was a catastrophic mistake. It was removed because it was too hard to use for non-pro players, but it's skill ceiling was high which means the top Protoss pros could make title runs off of it.
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Northern Ireland22528 Posts
On February 13 2024 19:35 Harris1st wrote:
Something that gives Protoss a better defense without any influence to Protoss offensive capabilities would be nice. How that could work I'm not sure. Maybe give all shields (units and buildings) +1 when in Range of a Nexus or sth like that?
If you buff a unit even the slighest bit, Protoss will abuse it and the Book of Protoss BS will get a new edition
Perhaps it’s due a new edition, it’s been a while since it was revised!
I guess before one patches, what are the actual issues?
PvT - I think it’s a combination of struggling to slow Terran powering outside of committing heavily, along with struggling to keep up if you do play a more passive macro style. Terrans have tools, and meta knowledge and improvements so they don’t take much damage from some oracles, or some forward stalkers. Committing heavily and not getting the requisite damage generally sees you steamrolled. Sitting back and Toss frequently gets killed in the phase where their third is up, maybe they’re eyeing up a fourth, their tech units are low in number and their army often isn’t too large due to necessary tech powering.
People may feel otherwise, but I find by far the most consistent way Protoss die in that matchup is right in that phase. Either a frontal push straight up kills them, or a drop manages to get in one of the gaps in defences in this relatively low-unit phase and does crippling damage.
PvZ - Much the same, except the killing blow usually comes later in the game. Or the Toss does a committed push that doesn’t work and dies to the counter a few minutes later. I think Protoss is less defensively vulnerable though, walling is much more effective against Zerg than Terran, as are forcefields. But Zerg outscaling Protoss is way more pronounced.
How does one go about fixing such issues?
A battery buff does just straight-up help in PvT, because it bandaids the specific phase where Toss struggles. You also open up strats like Phoenix/Collosus again. I don’t know if I like super batteries being such a crutch, but if you’ve a broken leg a crutch is better than nothing.
PvZ defensive buffs help, I mean any kind of buff definitionally helps, but it still doesn’t directly deal with the scaling disparity. Although I suppose if you can cut a few more corners defensively that lets you do more on the offensive side of things.
I’d revert some nerfs, I think some things were over-nerfed, or two nerfs were employed when one was sufficient. Cannon rushes into prism/Immortal with batteries were silly, absolutely but battery changes somewhat fixed that anyway, but the Prism still got nerfs too. That would be something I could see reverted to give Toss a bit back, without swinging things too much.
Maybe, very very slightly cut recall’s cast time. Like buffing batteries a bit I don’t particularly like this, but recall is a bandaid to compensate for Zerg mobility, and Terran being able to split armies and still deal potent damage. Quite often the adventurous Protoss hits recall almost instantly when caught on the map, but still loses a big chunk of the force anyway as Toss units just melt to cracklings or upgraded bio. I believe they still should be punished, but if they cast it right away they should still salvage something. A very minor buff just makes it less risky to be on the map, or splitting your army and I think encourages more interesting and dynamic play.
I’d like to see a lategame stalker buff, just to see what happens. They scale pretty awfully, specially in PvT. An upgrade that boosts HP, movement speed and damage. Nothing potent enough to make them powerful en masse in late game, but a slight buff to making them scale slightly better, enable them to maybe be out sharking, etc. They’re too passively slow to do that currently without a ton of risk in many a lategame.
Others have mentioned bringing back the Mommaship core, I’m down for something like that, with a complete rework. Instead of a defensive bolsterer/debufferer, why not make it an offensive augmenter instead? Maybe it’s quite speedy and works as an initial scout, and it has a passive aura that boosts nearby units to the same speed? Maybe a very slight boost to vision range too? Or perhaps the unit itself has an extended vision range. You could poke around a bit more safely, and shark in the mid-lategame but it shouldn’t be a big buff to the Toss deathball, absolutely something I’d try to avoid when theorycrafting.
Some of these ideas are probably awful, but then again the developers thought reworking the cyclone was something worth doing so I feel emboldened to contribute my spitballing :p
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On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:
This is what I've been saying.
If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances.
I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years?
I do agree Protoss needs a systematic re-design. They really should've done it with LotV. At this point it's impossible to ask them to fundamentally redesign a game that has been released for 14 years.
I don't think we need to buff Protoss to a point that second tier Protoss can hang with best of Terran and Zerg. Just a little push to help herO, Classic, MaxPax, Stats (and hopefully Parting soon) to be a bit more consistent in big tournament is all I am asking for. They have enough talents and skills to reasonably compete with anyone not name Serral (dude is just too singularly OP now).
I only want two small changes:
PvZ: Vipers can't pull mothershop anymore.
PvT: sentry guardian shield could partially negate EMP. maybe you need one EMP to break the shield first or it reduce the shield damage of EMP. something close to that nature.
That and plus some new maps that're a tiny bit more Protoss favored is probably all we need.
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Northern Ireland22528 Posts
On February 13 2024 22:57 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 12:09 Vindicare605 wrote:
This is what I've been saying.
If you guys want to put out a balance patch to try and get Protoss a tournament win, you're going to need to buff Protoss so much that guys like Showtime, Astrea and Skillous are going to be able to beat Maru, Serral and Dark. Anything less and you'll still just be relying on herO to carry the entire race and if he gets cheesed or his cheese fails that's it, tournament over no Protoss advances.
I'd rather see Protoss changed at a fundamental level rather than just seeing balance patches thrown at them in a desperate attempt to up their winrate. If you wanted to give Protoss a handicap, a better way to do it would be to adjust the map pool. Why the hell do we still have Zerg favored map pools in major tournaments when Zerg has been by far the most successful race over the last 5 years? I do agree Protoss needs a systematic re-design. They really should've done it with LotV. At this point it's impossible to ask them to fundamentally redesign a game that has been released for 14 years. I don't think we need to buff Protoss to a point that second tier Protoss can hang with best of Terran and Zerg. Just a little push to help herO, Classic, MaxPax, Stats (and hopefully Parting soon) to be a bit more consistent in big tournament is all I am asking for. They have enough talents and skills to reasonably compete with anyone not name Serral (dude is just too singularly OP now). I only want two small changes: PvZ: Vipers can't pull mothershop anymore. PvT: sentry guardian shield could partially negate EMP. maybe you need one EMP to break the shield first or it half the shield damage of EMP. something close to that nature. That and plus some new maps that're a tiny bit more Protoss favored is probably all we need.
Guardian shield mitigating EMP in some fashion is a pretty good idea, wish I thought of it!
It shouldn’t impact EMP as a counter-caster spell, but in terms of draining army shields I quite like that suggestion for sure.
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PvZ: Vipers can't pull mothershop anymore.
PvT: sentry guardian shield could partially negate EMP. maybe you need one EMP to break the shield first or it half the shield damage of EMP. something close to that nature.
Both of these are very good changes.
Also wish FF required 2 Corrosive Biles to knock them down.
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Regarding Vipers and the Mothership in general. I've felt for a long time that the answer to the Mothership problem is to simply replace it with Arbiters. Scale down their abilities a bit and give Protoss a smaller version that is cheaper but also able to be produced in larger numbers.
This does 2 things. 1. It limits the hard counter capability of vipers to just eliminate the cloaking capability of the Mothership with one yank. Vipers would still be counters to Arbiters but it would require killing off more than one to completely disable the cloaking field.
2. It opens up Protoss late game by allowing you to use Recall with Arbiters like they had in Brood War. This ability would obviously require balancing, since it would be MUCH more powerful tactically on multiple Arbiters rather than one big Mothership. It should cost more energy and have a smaller effective radius.
Protoss' biggest main problem in late game scenarios is their over dependence on having a single deathball army. The Mothership exacerbates this problem to a hilarious degree, to the point where in the current state of the game it's simply a meme of a unit. We should be at least TRYING to open up options for Protoss to be able to operate smaller and self sufficient groups of units. Replacing the Mothership with Arbiters would do that, without giving Protoss anything new that they can abuse in the early game.
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Protoss has to radically change their playstyle based on the matchup, on a fundamental mechanical level. Regardless of the patch this has been true. This has never been true for Z or T. The core mechanics are the same for them, so they get more out of their practice time. This also psychologically plays out in the patch history where P is seen as the antagonist race, which is forced to adapt to the other two.
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EPT
