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Norway28489 Posts
On February 05 2024 06:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 06:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:The BBC article linked which spurred this line of discussion states The analysis suggests between 144,000 and 175,000 buildings across the whole Gaza Strip have been damaged or destroyed. To be fair it doesn't state how many have been 'destroyed' and what 'damaged' entails but if you look at the various 'before and after' pictures in the same article you can see that we're generally not talking about broken windows here. What is the number of buildings in Ukraine that have been damaged or destroyed? Total war is awful any where it happens and especially when one side is trying to commit as many war crimes as possible (and in this case despite what angry people on twitter say it is Hamas.) + Show Spoiler +That does not mean the IDF has not done bad stuff, and maybe even war crimes. Ukraine has likely done some bad stuff and maybe even some war crimes as well.
What is the relevance to what I posted? You said: I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. Then you say 800 tunnel entrances and I say 144000+ buildings. To be fair you did say you guess, and you're free to guess as much as you want, but to me it looks like you were off by a rather significant margin. I really don't understand what Russia/Ukraine has to do with it, nor how Hamas being horrible is relevant. I'm just trying to supply some numbers.
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 05 2024 06:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 05:59 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 05:08 JimmiC wrote:On February 05 2024 04:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 05 2024 00:21 Gorsameth wrote:On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them Even if there were, blowing up a bunch of buildings 40-100's of feet above them isn't very effective at disabling them. Bout as effective as blowing up a garden shed, mother-in-law suite (with her inside), and burning all of your grass to get rid of the groundhog living in your yard. Aside from the depravity, I can understand how it might be cathartic, but it's still ineffective and demented. It's been abundantly obvious for a while now that Israel doesn't see a distinction between "terror infrastructure" and civilian infrastructure. They have even explicitly made a point to deprive Palestinian civilians basic supplies they need to survive as a publicly endorsed (and demanded) strategic war crime. What’s the effective way a destroying a tunnel entrance? Securing, and collapsing big chunks of the actual underlying tunnel network. What does destroying an entrance do if the overall system still remains? Level a bunch of buildings and close a few entrances and when the pressure is off new gateways into that system will just be built. It doesn’t seem a particularly effective method, never mind the human cost which is also rather high. The human cost is massively high. As far as effective, I'm not sure they have found the most effective way to destroy the terror tunnels. Last I read the massive amounts of water being pumped was not being super effective.
The Israeli human cost may be high, not the human cost. The human cost is already high with the current methodology.
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So in this Guardian article that I quickly googled for, 33% of buildings have been destroyed (as opposed to damaged or destroyed), which would get us to I believe 96000 buildings for 800 tunnel entrances.
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Given those facts, I agree with my good friend Jock that tunnels are irrelevant to this conversation and it looks like they're trying to level the place.
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So now we are comparing an area of 365 km2 (Gaza) to Ukraine.
The city of Kherson alone is 165km2. At one point Russia controlled 161.000 km2.
But sure lets compare the absolute number of destroyed building between 2 area's that are 3 orders of magnitude apart.
And all that to avoid having to admit that the statement I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. isn't very realistic
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I look forward to you defending Russia in the Ukraine thread because Israel also does it, Jimmi
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On February 05 2024 07:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 07:03 Gorsameth wrote:So now we are comparing an area of 365 km2 (Gaza) to Ukraine. The city of Kherson alone is 165km2. At one point Russia controlled 161.000 km2. But sure lets compare the absolute number of destroyed building between 2 area's that are 3 orders of magnitude apart. And all that to avoid having to admit that the statement I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. isn't very realistic How much Ukraine is Urban compared to Gaza? just keep on digging...
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I think the numbers between Ukraine and Russia are relevant. If Russia, a country at least 10x the size of Israel (pick your metric) has only managed to destroy 150k buildings in a war 10x as long, I feel like the 96k buildings destroyed is a pretty strong indicator that they might be trying to flatten gaza.
Either that, or the numbers aren't comparable. You choose.
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On February 05 2024 05:59 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 05:08 JimmiC wrote:On February 05 2024 04:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 05 2024 00:21 Gorsameth wrote:On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them Even if there were, blowing up a bunch of buildings 40-100's of feet above them isn't very effective at disabling them. Bout as effective as blowing up a garden shed, mother-in-law suite (with her inside), and burning all of your grass to get rid of the groundhog living in your yard. Aside from the depravity, I can understand how it might be cathartic, but it's still ineffective and demented. It's been abundantly obvious for a while now that Israel doesn't see a distinction between "terror infrastructure" and civilian infrastructure. They have even explicitly made a point to deprive Palestinian civilians basic supplies they need to survive as a publicly endorsed (and demanded) strategic war crime. What’s the effective way a destroying a tunnel entrance? Securing, and collapsing big chunks of the actual underlying tunnel network. What does destroying an entrance do if the overall system still remains? Level a bunch of buildings and close a few entrances and when the pressure is off new gateways into that system will just be built. It doesn’t seem a particularly effective method, never mind the human cost which is also rather high.
A lot of the bigger demolition projects are blowing up the length of a full tunnel, not just an entrance. It's better militarily because Hamas can't just clear the entrance out and get right back in. The problem is, the tunnels affect the support of all the buildings above them. So clearing one tunnel can also knock out a whole row of buildings atop it. There are a number of videos of Israel doing demolitions like this, and you can often see the indents in the ground after where everything fell into the gap that was left from the tunnels.
Not all of the damage has been from this of course. Most of the early bombing had more to do with buildings storing rockets or being garrisoned by militants. If a single building went down from an air strike, it was more likely one of the latter cases. If a whole block went down at once, it was probably a tunnel demolition.
Of course, there is also the problem of debris. If you blow up one building, you will certainly also damage most of the other surrounding buildings as well. The surrounding buildings may still be standing, but they also lose enough glass to be included in the damaged count.
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On February 05 2024 07:29 Fleetfeet wrote:
I think the numbers between Ukraine and Russia are relevant. If Russia, a country at least 10x the size of Israel (pick your metric) has only managed to destroy 150k buildings in a war 10x as long, I feel like the 96k buildings destroyed is a pretty strong indicator that they might be trying to flatten gaza.
Either that, or the numbers aren't comparable. You choose.
Eh, the Ukrainians care about their own civilians so they don't build all their military bases into civilian infrastructure. Ukrainian trenches are in fields, so if Russia wants to win the war, they shoot at those fields. Israel would love it if Hamas moved all their fighting out into fields and Israel could hit military targets without all the collateral damage.
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On February 05 2024 07:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 05:59 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 05:08 JimmiC wrote:On February 05 2024 04:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 05 2024 00:21 Gorsameth wrote:On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them Even if there were, blowing up a bunch of buildings 40-100's of feet above them isn't very effective at disabling them. Bout as effective as blowing up a garden shed, mother-in-law suite (with her inside), and burning all of your grass to get rid of the groundhog living in your yard. Aside from the depravity, I can understand how it might be cathartic, but it's still ineffective and demented. It's been abundantly obvious for a while now that Israel doesn't see a distinction between "terror infrastructure" and civilian infrastructure. They have even explicitly made a point to deprive Palestinian civilians basic supplies they need to survive as a publicly endorsed (and demanded) strategic war crime. What’s the effective way a destroying a tunnel entrance? Securing, and collapsing big chunks of the actual underlying tunnel network. What does destroying an entrance do if the overall system still remains? Level a bunch of buildings and close a few entrances and when the pressure is off new gateways into that system will just be built. It doesn’t seem a particularly effective method, never mind the human cost which is also rather high. A lot of the bigger demolition projects are blowing up the length of a full tunnel, not just an entrance. It's better militarily because Hamas can't just clear the entrance out and get right back in. The problem is, the tunnels affect the support of all the buildings above them. So clearing one tunnel can also knock out a whole row of buildings atop it. There are a number of videos of Israel doing demolitions like this, and you can often see the indents in the ground after where everything fell into the gap that was left from the tunnels. Not all of the damage has been from this of course. Most of the early bombing had more to do with buildings storing rockets or being garrisoned by militants. If a single building went down from an air strike, it was more likely one of the latter cases. If a whole block went down at once, it was probably a tunnel demolition. Of course, there is also the problem of debris. If you blow up one building, you will certainly also damage most of the other surrounding buildings as well. The surrounding buildings may still be standing, but they also lose enough glass to be included in the damaged count.
Israel is just so unlucky, man. Every time it looks like they're doing something fascistic, but it's not really what's happening there's some deeper explanation going on, that you can provide. Has a country ever been so unlucky in the history of the world?
Especially with Netanyahu as president, the guy who was raised by a father who was an open admirer of Mussolini, whose family left Israel because it wasn't fascistic enough, who then came back to Israel to lead the far right party of Israel, and now that he's in power with a bunch of ministers who keep saying over and over that they want to do fascistic things, events keep making it look like they're doing those fascistic things, but it's always a coincidence. I swear, it's uncanny. I would almost look for a simpler explanation, using something like Occam's Razor, but there are no better explanations so I guess it's just bad luck.
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On February 05 2024 08:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 08:01 Nebuchad wrote:On February 05 2024 07:32 Cerebrate1 wrote:On February 05 2024 05:59 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 05:08 JimmiC wrote:On February 05 2024 04:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 05 2024 00:21 Gorsameth wrote:On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them Even if there were, blowing up a bunch of buildings 40-100's of feet above them isn't very effective at disabling them. Bout as effective as blowing up a garden shed, mother-in-law suite (with her inside), and burning all of your grass to get rid of the groundhog living in your yard. Aside from the depravity, I can understand how it might be cathartic, but it's still ineffective and demented. It's been abundantly obvious for a while now that Israel doesn't see a distinction between "terror infrastructure" and civilian infrastructure. They have even explicitly made a point to deprive Palestinian civilians basic supplies they need to survive as a publicly endorsed (and demanded) strategic war crime. What’s the effective way a destroying a tunnel entrance? Securing, and collapsing big chunks of the actual underlying tunnel network. What does destroying an entrance do if the overall system still remains? Level a bunch of buildings and close a few entrances and when the pressure is off new gateways into that system will just be built. It doesn’t seem a particularly effective method, never mind the human cost which is also rather high. A lot of the bigger demolition projects are blowing up the length of a full tunnel, not just an entrance. It's better militarily because Hamas can't just clear the entrance out and get right back in. The problem is, the tunnels affect the support of all the buildings above them. So clearing one tunnel can also knock out a whole row of buildings atop it. There are a number of videos of Israel doing demolitions like this, and you can often see the indents in the ground after where everything fell into the gap that was left from the tunnels. Not all of the damage has been from this of course. Most of the early bombing had more to do with buildings storing rockets or being garrisoned by militants. If a single building went down from an air strike, it was more likely one of the latter cases. If a whole block went down at once, it was probably a tunnel demolition. Of course, there is also the problem of debris. If you blow up one building, you will certainly also damage most of the other surrounding buildings as well. The surrounding buildings may still be standing, but they also lose enough glass to be included in the damaged count. Israel is just so unlucky, man. Every time it looks like they're doing something fascistic, but it's not really what's happening there's some deeper explanation going on, that you can provide. Has a country ever been so unlucky in the history of the world? Especially with Netanyahu as president, the guy who was raised by a father who was an open admirer of Mussolini, whose family left Israel because it wasn't fascistic enough, who then came back to Israel to lead the far right party of Israel, and now that he's in power with a bunch of ministers who keep saying over and over that they want to do fascistic things, events keep making it look like they're doing those fascistic things, but it's always a coincidence. I swear, it's uncanny. I would almost look for a simpler explanation, using something like Occam's Razor, but there are no better explanations so I guess it's just bad luck. Even for you that is an extremely shitty post. What has Cerbrate1 done for you to be a complete asshole? Or does it just irate you to no end that he has a different opinion than you and can use facts and reality to argue against you assumptions and opinions?
I disagree I think I've made way shittier posts than this one
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EPT
