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Read the introduction article for information on the methodology behind this article series.
Editor's note: In 2015 TL.net's stuchiu tried to answer the most controversial question in all of StarCraft II: Who are the greatest players of all time?
No, the series didn't lead to the community reaching a harmonious consensus, but it was a fantastic way to look back on competitive StarCraft II history and celebrate its most accomplished players.
Eight years after stuchiu named Mvp the GOAT, Mizenhauer has decided to take a shot at creating an updated list. His approach and viewpoints are entirely different, but it's no less appreciative of StarCraft II history. Who will make the top ten cutoff this time around? |
Thanks for hanging out in the threads Mizen! I broadly speaking agree with and enjoy your methodology 
It's also very interesting to note that Mizen's already pointed out the five Korean greats of LOTV (dark/stats/rogue/maru/TY) based on individual league performance, but stats and dark have worse stats than TY (lower winrates in individual leagues, fewer world championships). Given that stats & dark are lock-ins for many people in this thread so far, I feel like maybe some of us are about to be wrong. Obviously Rogue and Maru are way later in the list, but it doesn't seem like stats' results hold up by these criteria.
As a rabid Dark fan, I hope Dark can still make it in based on his single WC, three starleagues (one SSL + 2 GSLs) and his long consistency as both a Ro16 lock and a perennial championship contender (though not too often the favorite).
Rogue Maru Serral are definitely top three I think (though the two koreans are notoriously inconsistent, and serral has a comparative lack of korean titles by not playing in GSL), inno sOs zest Mvp should be high in the top 10 as well. That leaves me with a single slot remaining... I can't really see stats > TY based on the criteria provided (though maybe I need more statistics heh), Life is a no-go... I guess soO seems like the most likely final candidate, with six GSL silvers (4 in consecutive seasons) and a WC, soO clearly had a hot streak too. Does he beat dark?
So if I had to guess: Rogue Maru Serral sOs mvp (inno/zest/dark) is guess for the remaining 8, based on the methodology article "WCs are the most prestigious". Rogue has the most WC + GSL, Maru has infinite GSLs + longevity, Serral has 2 WCs and insane winrates, sOs has three WCs, Mvp has his insane streak (but no WCs), and inno/zest/soo feel like the HOTS greats, but soO has no GSLs haha, so lemme replace him with dark :D
Very excited for the rest of the series to come out!
Edit: lmao forgot dark
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United States1782 Posts
On January 18 2024 08:26 yubo56 wrote:Thanks for hanging out in the threads Mizen! I broadly speaking agree with and enjoy your methodology It's also very interesting to note that Mizen's already pointed out the five Korean greats of LOTV (dark/stats/rogue/maru/TY) based on individual league performance, but stats and dark have worse stats than TY (lower winrates in individual leagues, fewer world championships). Given that stats & dark are lock-ins for many people in this thread so far, I feel like maybe some of us are about to be wrong. Obviously Rogue and Maru are way later in the list, but it doesn't seem like stats' results hold up by these criteria. As a rabid Dark fan, I hope Dark can still make it in based on his single WC, three starleagues (one SSL + 2 GSLs) and his long consistency as both a Ro16 lock and a perennial championship contender (though not too often the favorite). Rogue Maru Serral are definitely top three I think (though the two koreans are notoriously inconsistent, and serral has a comparative lack of korean titles by not playing in GSL), inno sOs zest Mvp should be high in the top 10 as well. That leaves me with a single slot remaining... I can't really see stats > TY based on the criteria provided (though maybe I need more statistics heh), Life is a no-go... I guess soO seems like the most likely final candidate, with six GSL silvers (4 in consecutive seasons) and a WC, soO clearly had a hot streak too. So if I had to guess: Rogue Maru Serral sOs mvp (inno/zest) soO is guess for the remaining 8, based on the methodology article "WCs are the most prestigious". Rogue has the most WC + GSL, Maru has infinite GSLs + longevity, Serral has 2 WCs and insane winrates, sOs has three WCs, Mvp has his insane streak (but no WCs), and inno/zest/soo feel like the HOTS greats, but soO has no GSLs haha. Very excited for the rest of the series to come out!
Glad you've been enjoying it. Once the entire series are down i'll be making a blog post about the players I had ranked 11-15 and the reasons they ended up outside of the top 10. Each of them are legends of the game, but sadly cuts had to be made  .
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Canada8988 Posts
Hum what an interesting choice. Somehow, I didn't think of TY at all when thinking about who I would put in a top 10, I didn't ruled him out, just kind of forgot about him. Not sure why, maybe it's because he's somewhat sandwiched inbetween Byun and Maru. It's weird cause INno jumped into my mind among the first, but TY does compare quite favorably to him on some aspects.
The article makes a very strong case, maybe he does in fact deserve to land at no9, such an amazingly smart player.
With both Rain and TY in the top 10, looks like it will end up very Kespa heavy, altought knowing Life gone peraps give an extra place for a Reynor, MC or MMA. But there's never enough place for everyone!
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On January 18 2024 05:13 darklycid wrote:
Btw if we wanna make asteriks for serral for his wins being in zerg favored moments does ty get an asterisk for his 2 biggest wins being in 2017, which was a pretty terran favored year?
Not even close. Terran did well at the start of 2017 (as did Protoss, only zerg was falling behind) but there weren't any long running terran winstreaks.
All of Serral's trophies came during the period of zerg winning 9 world championships in a row (between him, Reynor, soO, Dark, and Rogue). Almost all of his wins you can look at and if not for him, another zerg would have won.
Hell, Rogue was already on a 4 weekender streak (IEM, Super Cup, Blizzcon, Katowice) when Serral's legendary run started. The funny part is that people call Serral's 2018 the best run ever when Rogue's 9 months earlier was even better and got called a patchzerg.
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On January 18 2024 07:43 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 07:39 rwala wrote:On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.
In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot. I think you're right! I'm guessing SOS or Hero (CJ). Hero was crushing some of the early IEMs and also Proleague and has the interesting post-military peak, and SOS also crushed Proleague and has GSL, the 2 world championships, etc. re: sOs, he has zero gsl wins (he made the finals twice), but you missed out on one of his wc's, He won WCS in 2013, IEM in 2014 and WCS again in 2015.
Somehow in my mind I re-wrote history and had him beating Byun 
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On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.
In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot.
soO is genuinely about 10 games away from being number 1. And I think that alone shows someone should be at least in the top 10.
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On January 18 2024 10:06 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.
In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot. soO is genuinely about 10 games away from being number 1. And I think that alone shows someone should be at least in the top 10.
Looking through his history flipping 10 games would let him win 4 GSLs and a Blizzcon. Or alternatively 3 GSLs, Blizzcon and one of the other internationals he took second in like an IEM or Dreamhack. Plus those would be Kespa era GSLs and he already has Kato, TSL, and Kespa Cup. I'm not sure that puts him over Maru, Rogue and probably Serral for me but definitely over anyone else. Crazy how big of a difference just a few games can make to the perception of a player.
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On January 18 2024 10:06 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.
In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot. soO is genuinely about 10 games away from being number 1. And I think that alone shows someone should be at least in the top 10.
if soO ends in the top 10 by the merit of his silvers then Stats should also be there since he has one more major tournament silver than soO (including 3 starleagues and 3 world championships), though I highly doubt they can both make the list.
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On January 18 2024 10:52 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 10:06 Fango wrote:On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.
In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot. soO is genuinely about 10 games away from being number 1. And I think that alone shows someone should be at least in the top 10. Looking through his history flipping 10 games would let him win 4 GSLs and a Blizzcon. Or alternatively 3 GSLs, Blizzcon and one of the other internationals he took second in like an IEM or Dreamhack. Plus those would be Kespa era GSLs and he already has Kato, TSL, and Kespa Cup. I'm not sure that puts him over Maru, Rogue and probably Serral for me but definitely over anyone else. Crazy how big of a difference just a few games can make to the perception of a player.
Flip 9 games and he has 4 GSLs in a row (in the most competitive era, sorry Maru) plus Blizzcon and Katowice. If not the GOAT, he'd be a bonjwa
I guess by 2023 standards Maru has 9 starleagues, Rogue has 4+3 World Championships, Serral has like 15 trophies including 2 World championships. Maybe soO could fall down a couple places,
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Bisutopia19142 Posts
He’s an amazing player, but I’ve never had him in my mental top 10 of all time. I welcome the different opinion though!
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RIP MMA and sOs, I was rooting for them to make the cut. Alas. I'm not even sure if Stats is making this top 10 list any more.
When thinking about MMA, consider that in the WCS 2014, he lost to a player that has since had his title stripped of him:
 MMA
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On January 18 2024 08:39 Nakajin wrote:
Hum what an interesting choice. Somehow, I didn't think of TY at all when thinking about who I would put in a top 10, I didn't ruled him out, just kind of forgot about him. Not sure why, maybe it's because he's somewhat sandwiched inbetween Byun and Maru. It's weird cause INno jumped into my mind among the first, but TY does compare quite favorably to him on some aspects.
The article makes a very strong case, maybe he does in fact deserve to land at no9, such an amazingly smart player.
With both Rain and TY in the top 10, looks like it will end up very Kespa heavy, altought knowing Life gone peraps give an extra place for a Reynor, MC or MMA. But there's never enough place for everyone!
I don't think Reynor can qualify given how the scoring works, I don't think there's enough places for MMA to make the cut, and sadly I think MC isn't gonna make it for similar reasons to why Nestea isn't making it. Though MC has overall a better record than Nestea in my opinion due to all his international victories, (and MC made it to 3 GSL finals, winning two of them, which is comparable to Nestea's three victories against Leenock, Inca, and ;( MKP ).
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Northern Ireland23351 Posts
On January 18 2024 04:13 Mizenhauer wrote:
The feedback to these has already been fascinating! It seems like the Serral advocates lean more towards statistics (WINNING RECORD VS EVERYONE!) whereas the "Korean Elitists" are leaning on pure trophy count and the prestige of Code S (THE GUY WON X NUMBER OF TIMES!).
A lot of my methodology was ported over from numerous GOAT lists I've admired that dealt with physical sports and, as such, it makes sense that I value statistics like win rate or the number of times reaching a specific stage of an event) There are hundreds of examples of hall of famers and icons in every sport who never won on the highest level, but their statistical resume is unimpeachable. Even Lebron James, who at this point is top 2 GOAT without doubt, leans less on championships (Jordan has him beat) or MVPs (Kareem gets him here) and more on the fact that he has already scored the most points in history and continues to set longevity records that are frankly unprecedented.
Anyway, back to the StarCraft!
"Greatest" (in the context of a GOAT list) is a really vague and subjective term, but I think everyone can agree there's a certain je ne sais quoi about being "The Greatest" or "One of the Greatest". To me, TY having what I consider to be the is the single best matchup of any player in the history of Code S (the same tournament that a lot of people say is THE BEST and THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS). TY guy won 7 out of 10 TvT's he played during an era in which players like ByuN, INnoVation, Maru, aLive, Bunny, Cure and GuMiho (that's 13 combined Code S wins btw) ranged from good to very good and even great.
It may not be a trophy he can put in his cabinet but, if you ask me, that is one of the best examples of greatness that you will ever see in StarCraft II.
Agreed, and added to that complexity versus most big sports, its predecessors you have
- 3 iterations of the game
- Multiple changes of structure, in Korea and worldwide, pre, during and post-Kespa etc. Multiple orgs running tournaments and bowing out etc.
- Different balance patches
I think this is a pretty decent placement personally. If we’re talking playing different styles, mechanical chops, tactical chops in-game and set-planning, TY may not be the greatest or best player, but I think he’s got a very strong case as the most complete player we’ve seen.
Maru’s got his occasional brain fart. Inno would steamroll you with his mechanics, but not so good with a plan B. herO and Stats are opposite sides of the occasionally too aggressive/defensive coin. Rogue’s not the most consistent and Dark of recent years seems engaged in a personal challenge of winning with wonky unit comps. Zest’s bank is a meme for a reason.
Etc etc
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On January 18 2024 02:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Great read but I have to disagree hard with the rankings here.
This means that both Rain and TY rank above two of Maru, Serral, Rogue, Inno, Zest, Stats, Dark, sOs, Mvp, Life and I don't see that for any of them.
Maybe sOs because Mizenhauer doesn't rank world championships that highly and Life got excluded from the list?
Stats won a GSL and an SSL. He was very consistently good and a proleague monster, but I'll go out and say he is not making the top 10. Life isn't either for obvious reasons.
But looking at how Mizenhauer is rating WCs, there's a case for Reynor to be in there. And maybe Nestea and MC too, both with 3 wins in GSL and world championships, albeit in the very early pre-Kespa era of WoL.
E: oh, and he said he was valuing 2nd places quite highly, so soO is up there too.
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France12750 Posts
On January 18 2024 10:06 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Tbh seeing TY on this list gives me an uncanny feeling we might see soO on it as well.
In which case, given that Rogue/Innovation/Zest(?)/Maru/Serral(?) should likely be lock-ins makes this list very intriguing for the last spot. soO is genuinely about 10 games away from being number 1. And I think that alone shows someone should be at least in the top 10.
Maybe Squirtle was 1 game away from becoming the protoss GOAT...
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Excellent stuff, I love the specific statistics that you have drawn out here.
A huge amount of work must have gone into this series, so thank you.
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On January 18 2024 12:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 04:13 Mizenhauer wrote:
The feedback to these has already been fascinating! It seems like the Serral advocates lean more towards statistics (WINNING RECORD VS EVERYONE!) whereas the "Korean Elitists" are leaning on pure trophy count and the prestige of Code S (THE GUY WON X NUMBER OF TIMES!).
A lot of my methodology was ported over from numerous GOAT lists I've admired that dealt with physical sports and, as such, it makes sense that I value statistics like win rate or the number of times reaching a specific stage of an event) There are hundreds of examples of hall of famers and icons in every sport who never won on the highest level, but their statistical resume is unimpeachable. Even Lebron James, who at this point is top 2 GOAT without doubt, leans less on championships (Jordan has him beat) or MVPs (Kareem gets him here) and more on the fact that he has already scored the most points in history and continues to set longevity records that are frankly unprecedented.
Anyway, back to the StarCraft!
"Greatest" (in the context of a GOAT list) is a really vague and subjective term, but I think everyone can agree there's a certain je ne sais quoi about being "The Greatest" or "One of the Greatest". To me, TY having what I consider to be the is the single best matchup of any player in the history of Code S (the same tournament that a lot of people say is THE BEST and THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS). TY guy won 7 out of 10 TvT's he played during an era in which players like ByuN, INnoVation, Maru, aLive, Bunny, Cure and GuMiho (that's 13 combined Code S wins btw) ranged from good to very good and even great.
It may not be a trophy he can put in his cabinet but, if you ask me, that is one of the best examples of greatness that you will ever see in StarCraft II. Agreed, and added to that complexity versus most big sports, its predecessors you have - 3 iterations of the game - Multiple changes of structure, in Korea and worldwide, pre, during and post-Kespa etc. Multiple orgs running tournaments and bowing out etc. - Different balance patches I think this is a pretty decent placement personally. If we’re talking playing different styles, mechanical chops, tactical chops in-game and set-planning, TY may not be the greatest or best player, but I think he’s got a very strong case as the most complete player we’ve seen. Maru’s got his occasional brain fart. Inno would steamroll you with his mechanics, but not so good with a plan B. herO and Stats are opposite sides of the occasionally too aggressive/defensive coin. Rogue’s not the most consistent and Dark of recent years seems engaged in a personal challenge of winning with wonky unit comps. Zest’s bank is a meme for a reason. Etc etc
TY the only player to lose to shitty ravager build in GSL though
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Northern Ireland23351 Posts
On January 18 2024 17:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 02:24 Charoisaur wrote:
Great read but I have to disagree hard with the rankings here.
This means that both Rain and TY rank above two of Maru, Serral, Rogue, Inno, Zest, Stats, Dark, sOs, Mvp, Life and I don't see that for any of them.
Maybe sOs because Mizenhauer doesn't rank world championships that highly and Life got excluded from the list? Stats won a GSL and an SSL. He was very consistently good and a proleague monster, but I'll go out and say he is not making the top 10. Life isn't either for obvious reasons. But looking at how Mizenhauer is rating WCs, there's a case for Reynor to be in there. And maybe Nestea and MC too, both with 3 wins in GSL and world championships, albeit in the very early pre-Kespa era of WoL. E: oh, and he said he was valuing 2nd places quite highly, so soO is up there too.
I think given Miz doesn’t rate influence/developing the game quite as highly as I do, in lieu of flourishing in an era where the foundations were set and stealing an edge where you’re a bit ahead of the curve was much harder, I doubt Nestea/MC are making it.
Even me, who rates it very highly indeed (it is a strategy game after all, not a pure execution game) probably still would have those two as a lock for a top 20, but not too 10.
Not his fault at all but I don’t think Reynor has a shot and I’d agree. He doesn’t have Serral’s relentless consistency, he shares the lack of Proleague with him, but not the lack of Starleague participation and while his first efforts saw him exceed expectation, his latest saw him come way short of it.
He’s a bit streaky, peak for the big moments kind of guy, but he’s just not been around long enough to have more of those moments than Rogue, or $o$ who I feel are similarly mercurial talents.
As I said I don’t think it’s really a failing of his, if Reynor was a couple of years older and on a similar talent development trajectory he’s probably making a case for top 10. As a Serral on a similar trajectory would move from a ‘where do we place him in the top 10’ to an absolute lock for a top 3 place
But as we can’t as a species, unfortunately (yet) time-travel or peer into alternate timelines such as ‘what if Mvp or Taeja had more robust wrists?’ or ‘what if Rain stuck around?’ we kinda have to judge on face value.
For the record I think Reynor probably makes it into a list of ‘top 10 raw talents’ or ‘top 10 mechanical monsters’ no bother, in the latter I’d place him above even Serral probably.
I know we have our biases, skills we value more than others and our personal favourites, but I never want my naysaying, or when I take the microscope out to ever imply any disrespect to these titans and their skills.
Indeed I think it attests to StarCraft(s) greatness as a game that there is such space for disagreement. That we have preferences for the perfect defensive macro monster, the ruthless timing attack aficionado, the fromage fiend, or the player whose brain compensates for their fingers or the inverse.
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Thanks to Mizenhauer, not only for the list, but for the trip down memory lane. The linked vods send me on a trip to 2016 proleague, enjoying it so far and I think it also gives a good perspective of how different the game was 8 years ago.
People here naming Reynor and Serral I think are not necessarily wrong, but when judging for the Greatest of All Time we cannot let the present or even the recent past weigh more than the distant past. The same goes for Maru.
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On January 18 2024 10:03 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2024 05:13 darklycid wrote:
Btw if we wanna make asteriks for serral for his wins being in zerg favored moments does ty get an asterisk for his 2 biggest wins being in 2017, which was a pretty terran favored year? Not even close. Terran did well at the start of 2017 (as did Protoss, only zerg was falling behind) but there weren't any long running terran winstreaks. All of Serral's trophies came during the period of zerg winning 9 world championships in a row (between him, Reynor, soO, Dark, and Rogue). Almost all of his wins you can look at and if not for him, another zerg would have won. Hell, Rogue was already on a 4 weekender streak (IEM, Super Cup, Blizzcon, Katowice) when Serral's legendary run started. The funny part is that people call Serral's 2018 the best run ever when Rogue's 9 months earlier was even better and got called a patchzerg.
Hmm Not untrue though many of TYs big wins are from periods where terran overperformed (start of 2017, start of 2020), im Not saying he doesnt deserve to be on this list but that is what separates him from e.g. Maru or other greats that have shown to be able to do very Well even at Times where Balance was against them.
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EPT
