|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
1. Pretty funny how you assumed though.
2. Those claims are not racist. He has been presenting quite a bit of information to which you continue to not respond to discussion and just lash out.
4. One can be a fascist and not be a nazi.
You do understand why there is so much negative talk regarding Russian politics right? You do understand what the Russian government is doing is wrong right?
|
Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 09:23 StorrZerg wrote:
1. Pretty funny how you assumed though.
2. Those claims are not racist. He has been presenting quite a bit of information to which you continue to not respond to discussion and just lash out.
4. One can be a fascist and not be a nazi.
You do understand why there is so much negative talk regarding Russian politics right? You do understand what the Russian government is doing is wrong right?
1. Yep, my bad. Stereotypes live in all of us perhaps
2. Any negative claim on a nation as a whole is racism by definition (which btw is itself a stupid thing in this case, as Russia is quite diverse and multinational).
4. I disagree. The most clear and lucid definition of fascism that I saw was "the dictatorship of nationalists". All of the other features are just consequences. In this definition a fascist person is nonsence, or maybe some wannabe imitator of historical personalities - which is definetely not what was meant here.
On the last one - I'm a consistent anti-war person. I've signed several petitions against the war right after the start, and participated in the protests. Today the same, I'm for stopping the war ASAP.
But instead of pushing both of the sides to sign a treaty, I see as how Western media manipulate the public opinion and
stir the hatred even more - sometimes resorting to blatant lies of the level I thought impossible. So I blame both our government - for starting this bullshit, the US goverment - for provoking the conflict, and pushing to continue the war, but most of all - the Ukrainian government, who in this situation worked as true traitors to their people.
|
United States41470 Posts
What kind of treaty could Ukraine possibly sign during an ongoing genocide. The precondition of any treaty is that Russia leaves Ukraine, returns the Ukrainian citizens they forcibly removed from their homes and put into camps, and makes reparations. The treaty is to agree the width of the DMZ on the border, the degree of disarmament required of Russia, and how much they'll pay in reparations.
|
On October 13 2022 03:49 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 03:34 Salazarz wrote:Re: Poverty rates in Russia -- it's pretty much impossible to get any accurate numbers there because the shadow economy is incredibly prevalent. It's a poorer country than most European nations -- but not overwhelmingly so, especially if compared to less successful places like, say, Greece, Portugal, or the Balkans. Russia's PPP adjusted GDP per capita is around 30k USD on paper, for comparison Poland and Portugal are both between 35k and 40k depending on which methodology is used. Lower taxes and the above-mentioned shadow economy likely makes up for most if not all of that gap. Meanwhile Ukraine's PPP adjusted GDP per capita didn't even crack 15k USD before the war started. Re: did Crimea want to join Russia -- it's a lot more complicated than 'bad Russia forced them at gunpoint.' Crimea is largely populated by Russians, they considered themselves to be on 'Russia's side' before and during the maidan, and they are strongly opposed to all the 'Ukrainization laws' that were happening. Good read with some important numbers on the subject: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/03/06/do-crimeans-actually-want-to-join-russia/Regardless, there were multiple independent polls carried out by Western agencies, including US government, that have all concluded that Crimeans prefer to be in Russia following the 2014 occupation. You can certainly argue that their opinions aren't important and that occupation was illegal anyway, but the endless repetition of ' its all fake the ruzzkies staged it Crimeans love Ukraine!' is tedious and not grounded in reality at all. Can you point me to this endless repetition? I can not find it. I only see people saying that the vote was rigged after an invasion. Which is factually true.
Again, it's a lot more complicated than 'Russia invaded a peaceful and untroubled country and forced folks to vote for joining them at gunpoint.' Saying 'it's a rigged vote after an invasion' is ignoring all of the context of the situation.
On October 13 2022 05:11 Magic Powers wrote:The discussion of whether Crimeans wanted to join Russia or not is missing a few important points. 1) The vote was illegal under Ukrainian law. 2) There was no option offered to remain under Kyiv rule. The second option on the ballot was to restore the 1992 constitution, under which Crimea would be a Republic with significant autonomy. There was absolutely no legal basis for that, among other reasons because the constitution during that time was constantly being rewritten, and Putin chose an arbitrary point in time to return to - but not so arbitrary from his point of view, because, for one, it was undesirable for anyone wanting to remain under Kyiv rule, and it was not clearly stated what that option would entail. But most importantly, when put into the context of Russian occupation during this sham referendum, you may understand why many Crimeans didn't exactly have a strong desire to anger Putin. You can even see this right now in Ukraine with people in recently liberated areas abstaining from criticizing Russia and instead talking of "tragedies" and "unfortunate events", not because they likey likey Russia, but because they're afraid that the Russian troops might return any moment and punish them. They've seen what the Russian troops do to people. It was the same fear for Crimeans in 2014. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/03/18/five-years-after-crimeas-illegal-annexation-the-issue-is-no-closer-to-resolution/And these are just two of a list of points that made the referendum illegitimate. Other points are: no independent observers present; armed guards present at polling stations; turnout under question; result under question; UN terming the referendum invalid.
Euromaidan was also illegal under Ukrainian law. But since it's generally accepted that most of Ukrainians were okay with it, nobody is arguing about the 'legitimacy' of the outcome. Yet in Crimea, where by all indicators most of people are okay with the results of the referendum, it's 'illegitimate' because it wasn't legal under Ukrainian law, and screw the right to self-determination and all that?
On October 13 2022 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 04:45 Ardias wrote:
@Magic Powers - how did we come from comparing poverty rates in Russia and Ukraine to the assumption that there is no poor people in Russia? Did you not pay attention? The Russian people are much poorer than people in other countries. It's more than just a huge wealth gap, it's about people having to make a choice between food - not just healthy food, but any food - on the table or the dentist's bill. It's about people having to live with rats biting their feet at night. Such living standards are exceedingly rare in countries like the US, but in Russia you can find it in many places.
Nearly 20% of UK's households are considered 'food insecure' and somewhere between 10% and 16% in the US are. There are plenty of people in every country in the world who have to make choices between food on the table or making rent or whatever (dentist bill is a bad example because healthcare is free in Russia). Russian people aren't 'much poorer' than people in other countries; typical salaries in Russia are comparable to salaries of most Central / Eastern European nations while cost of living is also similar or lower.
|
United States41470 Posts
On October 13 2022 12:14 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 03:49 JimmiC wrote:On October 13 2022 03:34 Salazarz wrote:Re: Poverty rates in Russia -- it's pretty much impossible to get any accurate numbers there because the shadow economy is incredibly prevalent. It's a poorer country than most European nations -- but not overwhelmingly so, especially if compared to less successful places like, say, Greece, Portugal, or the Balkans. Russia's PPP adjusted GDP per capita is around 30k USD on paper, for comparison Poland and Portugal are both between 35k and 40k depending on which methodology is used. Lower taxes and the above-mentioned shadow economy likely makes up for most if not all of that gap. Meanwhile Ukraine's PPP adjusted GDP per capita didn't even crack 15k USD before the war started. Re: did Crimea want to join Russia -- it's a lot more complicated than 'bad Russia forced them at gunpoint.' Crimea is largely populated by Russians, they considered themselves to be on 'Russia's side' before and during the maidan, and they are strongly opposed to all the 'Ukrainization laws' that were happening. Good read with some important numbers on the subject: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/03/06/do-crimeans-actually-want-to-join-russia/Regardless, there were multiple independent polls carried out by Western agencies, including US government, that have all concluded that Crimeans prefer to be in Russia following the 2014 occupation. You can certainly argue that their opinions aren't important and that occupation was illegal anyway, but the endless repetition of ' its all fake the ruzzkies staged it Crimeans love Ukraine!' is tedious and not grounded in reality at all. Can you point me to this endless repetition? I can not find it. I only see people saying that the vote was rigged after an invasion. Which is factually true. Again, it's a lot more complicated than 'Russia invaded a peaceful and untroubled country and forced folks to vote for joining them at gunpoint.' Saying 'it's a rigged vote after an invasion' is ignoring all of the context of the situation. Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 05:11 Magic Powers wrote:The discussion of whether Crimeans wanted to join Russia or not is missing a few important points. 1) The vote was illegal under Ukrainian law. 2) There was no option offered to remain under Kyiv rule. The second option on the ballot was to restore the 1992 constitution, under which Crimea would be a Republic with significant autonomy. There was absolutely no legal basis for that, among other reasons because the constitution during that time was constantly being rewritten, and Putin chose an arbitrary point in time to return to - but not so arbitrary from his point of view, because, for one, it was undesirable for anyone wanting to remain under Kyiv rule, and it was not clearly stated what that option would entail. But most importantly, when put into the context of Russian occupation during this sham referendum, you may understand why many Crimeans didn't exactly have a strong desire to anger Putin. You can even see this right now in Ukraine with people in recently liberated areas abstaining from criticizing Russia and instead talking of "tragedies" and "unfortunate events", not because they likey likey Russia, but because they're afraid that the Russian troops might return any moment and punish them. They've seen what the Russian troops do to people. It was the same fear for Crimeans in 2014. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/03/18/five-years-after-crimeas-illegal-annexation-the-issue-is-no-closer-to-resolution/And these are just two of a list of points that made the referendum illegitimate. Other points are: no independent observers present; armed guards present at polling stations; turnout under question; result under question; UN terming the referendum invalid. Euromaidan was also illegal under Ukrainian law. But since it's generally accepted that most of Ukrainians were okay with it, nobody is arguing about the 'legitimacy' of the outcome. Yet in Crimea, where by all indicators most of people are okay with the results of the referendum, it's 'illegitimate' because it wasn't legal under Ukrainian law, and screw the right to self-determination and all that? Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 04:45 Ardias wrote:
@Magic Powers - how did we come from comparing poverty rates in Russia and Ukraine to the assumption that there is no poor people in Russia? Did you not pay attention? The Russian people are much poorer than people in other countries. It's more than just a huge wealth gap, it's about people having to make a choice between food - not just healthy food, but any food - on the table or the dentist's bill. It's about people having to live with rats biting their feet at night. Such living standards are exceedingly rare in countries like the US, but in Russia you can find it in many places. Nearly 20% of UK's households are considered 'food insecure' and somewhere between 10% and 16% in the US are. There are plenty of people in every country in the world who have to make choices between food on the table or making rent or whatever (dentist bill is a bad example because healthcare is free in Russia). Russian people aren't 'much poorer' than people in other countries; typical salaries in Russia are comparable to salaries of most Central / Eastern European nations while cost of living is also similar or lower.
Let’s say Euromaiden was illegitimate, what does that have to do with the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government which is, as I’m sure you’re aware, not the same one as came into power from Euromaiden.
|
On October 13 2022 06:56 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:30 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 06:05 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:59 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 05:47 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 04:45 Ardias wrote:
@Magic Powers - how did we come from comparing poverty rates in Russia and Ukraine to the assumption that there is no poor people in Russia? Did you not pay attention? The Russian people are much poorer than people in other countries. It's more than just a huge wealth gap, it's about people having to make a choice between food - not just healthy food, but any food - on the table or the dentist's bill. It's about people having to live with rats biting their feet at night. Such living standards are exceedingly rare in countries like the US, but in Russia you can find it in many places. Dentist bill is free in Russia, though it may not be top-tier quality (had 5 of my teeth fixed that way few years ago, so I know what I'm talking about). Public medicine. If you want top-tier - then you pay the bill. Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit. Though we have enough alcoholics, junkies, or, sadly, elderly and/or mentally disabled people without support who could lead to sanitary fuckup, that's true, as well as a bunch of cases of negligence by responsible authorities, though latter could often be resolved via court or public attention if people actually do try. Though from personal experience I do know that a lot of people here (in Russia, I mean) like to complain and do nothing, not even participate in annual apartment owner meetings where they could actually solve their problems. And no, discussion started from the point that Russian people are much poorer than Ukraininan ones and Putin's war goal was to make Ukrainians as poor as Russians. You were bringing 12,1% poverty rate for Russia and 2,5% for Ukraine, to which I pointed out that you take percentages from differen measurement points, like comparing feets to meters. You then simply started to stay that "Russians are very poor", abandoning the Ukraine point completely. But to answer your latest big post - yes, there are quite a lot of Russian that are poor. Yet there are public stuff to ease it up (inheritance of damn communists with their free public education and medicine). No, the statistics doesn't give clear persperctive, because you seemed to entirely miss what I told about gray economy in Russia, and how it applies to Ukraine (probably even more, since they have less strict tax control). On October 13 2022 05:15 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
He asked how many legitimate elections in Russia had such high support for Putin. You gave him examples of blatantly rigged elections. Where did he said anything about "legitimate" elections? His quote, I don't see the word "legitimate" anywhere: "How many of the Russian held votes in the last 10 years have been over 90%? From these referendums to anything directly involving Putin and his power?" "Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit." Ok, please tell me why I should argue with someone who is that ignorant of how poverty works? "Just care a bit"? Please give me the slightest incentive to take you seriously. Because I actually live here, because my grandmother and aunt live on their pensions in the wooden Soviet barrack in suburbs or Arkhangelsk, because my wife comes from remote village 400km from the city in the middle of nowhere, and my father-in-law and mother-in-law still live there. So I can clearly see when people talk about actual poverty issues, especially in Russia, and when they clearly don't know what they are talking about, to put it very mildly. Not knowing that dental care is free and available to everyone in Russia says a lot about your actual knowledge. You may google what "Obligatory Medical Insurance" in Russia is, for the start. I mentioned dental care when I illustrated the financial dilemma people face, not because specifically dental care is what Russian people can't afford. And no, health care is not "free", people have to pay for it, including in Russia. If people need medicine that isn't fully covered, they have to pay for it from their own pockets. This is the same thing they do in other countries with "basic healthcare"; but the standard is not the same everywhere, and it's not provided to all people equally. If you live in bumfuck nowhere in Russia, you strictly cannot get the same treatment options, and this is how the Russian leaders make sure that not too much money is spent from their own pockets to the poorest - they simply neglect them in more indirect ways, like not building their infrastructure or not making sure they get provided the same options that are promised to those living in more affluent areas. Do you understand this? Well, now we get to more reasonable discussion. It's kinda offtopic, so I'll move my reply under spoiler. + Show Spoiler +About the medicine - yes, you are correct, generally you do pay for it from your pocket. If it's a recommendation, and not a direct prescription (you won't buy some stuff without it, same as in other countries I believe), you can often get cheaper variants, because doctors often write a bit more effective and safe imported option, but 5x-10x times more expensive, and pharmacies are much more eager to sell expensive medicine, rather than cheap Russian generics with the same effect.
Of course there are cases with rare illness where you need particular operation or medication, and yes, for the poorer part of people if often becomes unaffordable, here I agree. But from most common diseases you are able to get a treatment, even if you are broke as a joke.
Now to infrastructure - somebody couple of pages ago said "Russia is so big, why it isn't prosperous". Well, partially it's the reason. I see you live in Austria. It's 84k km2 in size with 9 million population. And it's 7 times less in size while having 8 times larger population than only my region of Russia. How do you propose providing equal medical care to every person here, especially in remote rural areas?
To give you an example - we have a cancer treatment center here. It's large, has a lot of nice stuff, they effectively treat a lot of patients (know that because my mother is one of them) - but you can't build center like this in every sub-region of our oblast. So yeah, people simply have to drive 400-500 km to treat their cancer. And such issue is unresolvable if the population is dispersed through the country.
On the matter I would ask people from US how healthcare for stuff like cancer works in remote small cities in Montana, Wyoming or Arizona, for example. Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:30 Simberto wrote:On October 13 2022 06:27 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 06:14 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
Fair enough. As far as I can tell, the context was legitimacy of the elections - how believable such high support is. I'm pretty sure he was interested in legitimate elections but I could be wrong. Because what's the point of using blatantly rigged elections to show that such results can happen in fair elections. My guess is to understand the extent of rigging in elections and if there could be correlation between the result of election and actual public opinion. I mean, if every election could be rigged to show 80+% turnout and 90+% result, why would United Russia be on the brink of 50% every parliamentary election, with all the rigging and administrative resource on their side? Or our previous governor elections show only 20% of the turnout and a bit above 50% for the winner (he was often called "Governor-10-percent" here because of that)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governors_of_Arkhangelsk_OblastDifferent public polls seemed to also support the picture that Putin himself is much more popular than United Russia (probably that's why he left somewhere in mid-10s, since his party was giving him negative perception). And my way of dealing with this would be to not try to gain any legitimate information from a rigged election, except maybe information about the rigging. A rigged election should be treated as if no election has happened. Anything else gives it legitimacy it does not deserve. Not trying to understand the realities of the country you are discussing may lead to beliefs like "only checkists and oligarchs from Russia could afford visit to Europe". Though it's your right to do so, of course.
Providing healthcare, housing, infrastructure doesn't start at the extreme, i.e. expensive and logistically difficult cancer treatment, it starts with simple things like getting rid of a rat infestation. The government is fully aware that this problem persists in many regions, and yet even such a basic (yes basic) thing isn't being solved. And that's not because the people there don't care. You'd hear their complaints every day if you went there and asked them about their living conditions. There are enough independent reports about this that the Russian government has to be aware of this problem, and they're not doing anything.
|
On October 13 2022 09:08 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 08:39 StasisField wrote:On October 13 2022 08:28 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even. Oh you didn't like that? And is that ok when your countryman writes racist bullshit here? Btw, I'm interested, how a single person can be a "fascist"? Is that not something related to social order, or "fascist" is a curse word you learnt from some propaganda video on Youtube? 1. Kwark isn't from the US, he merely lives here. 2. Kwark wasn't being racist. Reading comprehension is hard though, I know. 3. Even if he was, Sermokala didn't put their stamp of approval on what Kwark said so don't be all uppity when they call you out like they're being a hypocrite or contradicting themself. 4. People who follow fascist ideology are fascists, just as people who follow communist ideology are communists. Not a difficult concept to grasp. 1. -ok, didn't know. 2. It was. Claims like "russians have no concept of truth" or "Stalin broke the culture" (meaning it is some kind of a persistent effect) are 146% racist gems worthy of Hitler himself. 3. in my offensive post I wrote that this is not how I truly think of Americans, just an example of a racist bs. Its interesting though, how you and Sermokala reacted. Did you even read the post till the end? 4. To follow a fascist ideology you have at least to be a nazi and to follow a rule of a dictator. At least the first quality is not met in the case of Russian society. And seeing how eager you are at blaming Russians in all sins, you're much closer to that title.
It is very easy to argue that Putin is in fact a dictator, for example as there is no way to remove him in free and fair elections. But then again, Russia has never had a leader who was removed by an election afaik, so some version of dictatorship is the norm.
Fascism is a very problematic word to define, but "at least to be a nazi" is a wrong place to start. The very word as a political term originated in Italy, not in Germany.
Both "fascism" and "nazism" get thrown around at anything people don't like or fear. Russians eagerly uses "nazism" that way, not the least about Ukrainians.
If you are not far right yourself, "fascism" tends to include any "authoritarian, anti democratic, right-wing movement", which can certainly include the January 6th congress storming. As such, it will look different in each country and each era, If you don't want to be called a fascist, you can choose a narrower definition and to point how you differ from the original fascists, Mussolini and Franco.
|
Russian Federation592 Posts
On October 13 2022 14:32 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 06:56 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 06:30 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 06:05 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:59 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 05:47 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 04:45 Ardias wrote:
@Magic Powers - how did we come from comparing poverty rates in Russia and Ukraine to the assumption that there is no poor people in Russia? Did you not pay attention? The Russian people are much poorer than people in other countries. It's more than just a huge wealth gap, it's about people having to make a choice between food - not just healthy food, but any food - on the table or the dentist's bill. It's about people having to live with rats biting their feet at night. Such living standards are exceedingly rare in countries like the US, but in Russia you can find it in many places. Dentist bill is free in Russia, though it may not be top-tier quality (had 5 of my teeth fixed that way few years ago, so I know what I'm talking about). Public medicine. If you want top-tier - then you pay the bill. Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit. Though we have enough alcoholics, junkies, or, sadly, elderly and/or mentally disabled people without support who could lead to sanitary fuckup, that's true, as well as a bunch of cases of negligence by responsible authorities, though latter could often be resolved via court or public attention if people actually do try. Though from personal experience I do know that a lot of people here (in Russia, I mean) like to complain and do nothing, not even participate in annual apartment owner meetings where they could actually solve their problems. And no, discussion started from the point that Russian people are much poorer than Ukraininan ones and Putin's war goal was to make Ukrainians as poor as Russians. You were bringing 12,1% poverty rate for Russia and 2,5% for Ukraine, to which I pointed out that you take percentages from differen measurement points, like comparing feets to meters. You then simply started to stay that "Russians are very poor", abandoning the Ukraine point completely. But to answer your latest big post - yes, there are quite a lot of Russian that are poor. Yet there are public stuff to ease it up (inheritance of damn communists with their free public education and medicine). No, the statistics doesn't give clear persperctive, because you seemed to entirely miss what I told about gray economy in Russia, and how it applies to Ukraine (probably even more, since they have less strict tax control). On October 13 2022 05:15 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
He asked how many legitimate elections in Russia had such high support for Putin. You gave him examples of blatantly rigged elections. Where did he said anything about "legitimate" elections? His quote, I don't see the word "legitimate" anywhere: "How many of the Russian held votes in the last 10 years have been over 90%? From these referendums to anything directly involving Putin and his power?" "Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit." Ok, please tell me why I should argue with someone who is that ignorant of how poverty works? "Just care a bit"? Please give me the slightest incentive to take you seriously. Because I actually live here, because my grandmother and aunt live on their pensions in the wooden Soviet barrack in suburbs or Arkhangelsk, because my wife comes from remote village 400km from the city in the middle of nowhere, and my father-in-law and mother-in-law still live there. So I can clearly see when people talk about actual poverty issues, especially in Russia, and when they clearly don't know what they are talking about, to put it very mildly. Not knowing that dental care is free and available to everyone in Russia says a lot about your actual knowledge. You may google what "Obligatory Medical Insurance" in Russia is, for the start. I mentioned dental care when I illustrated the financial dilemma people face, not because specifically dental care is what Russian people can't afford. And no, health care is not "free", people have to pay for it, including in Russia. If people need medicine that isn't fully covered, they have to pay for it from their own pockets. This is the same thing they do in other countries with "basic healthcare"; but the standard is not the same everywhere, and it's not provided to all people equally. If you live in bumfuck nowhere in Russia, you strictly cannot get the same treatment options, and this is how the Russian leaders make sure that not too much money is spent from their own pockets to the poorest - they simply neglect them in more indirect ways, like not building their infrastructure or not making sure they get provided the same options that are promised to those living in more affluent areas. Do you understand this? Well, now we get to more reasonable discussion. It's kinda offtopic, so I'll move my reply under spoiler. + Show Spoiler +About the medicine - yes, you are correct, generally you do pay for it from your pocket. If it's a recommendation, and not a direct prescription (you won't buy some stuff without it, same as in other countries I believe), you can often get cheaper variants, because doctors often write a bit more effective and safe imported option, but 5x-10x times more expensive, and pharmacies are much more eager to sell expensive medicine, rather than cheap Russian generics with the same effect.
Of course there are cases with rare illness where you need particular operation or medication, and yes, for the poorer part of people if often becomes unaffordable, here I agree. But from most common diseases you are able to get a treatment, even if you are broke as a joke.
Now to infrastructure - somebody couple of pages ago said "Russia is so big, why it isn't prosperous". Well, partially it's the reason. I see you live in Austria. It's 84k km2 in size with 9 million population. And it's 7 times less in size while having 8 times larger population than only my region of Russia. How do you propose providing equal medical care to every person here, especially in remote rural areas?
To give you an example - we have a cancer treatment center here. It's large, has a lot of nice stuff, they effectively treat a lot of patients (know that because my mother is one of them) - but you can't build center like this in every sub-region of our oblast. So yeah, people simply have to drive 400-500 km to treat their cancer. And such issue is unresolvable if the population is dispersed through the country.
On the matter I would ask people from US how healthcare for stuff like cancer works in remote small cities in Montana, Wyoming or Arizona, for example. On October 13 2022 06:30 Simberto wrote:On October 13 2022 06:27 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 06:14 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
Fair enough. As far as I can tell, the context was legitimacy of the elections - how believable such high support is. I'm pretty sure he was interested in legitimate elections but I could be wrong. Because what's the point of using blatantly rigged elections to show that such results can happen in fair elections. My guess is to understand the extent of rigging in elections and if there could be correlation between the result of election and actual public opinion. I mean, if every election could be rigged to show 80+% turnout and 90+% result, why would United Russia be on the brink of 50% every parliamentary election, with all the rigging and administrative resource on their side? Or our previous governor elections show only 20% of the turnout and a bit above 50% for the winner (he was often called "Governor-10-percent" here because of that)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governors_of_Arkhangelsk_OblastDifferent public polls seemed to also support the picture that Putin himself is much more popular than United Russia (probably that's why he left somewhere in mid-10s, since his party was giving him negative perception). And my way of dealing with this would be to not try to gain any legitimate information from a rigged election, except maybe information about the rigging. A rigged election should be treated as if no election has happened. Anything else gives it legitimacy it does not deserve. Not trying to understand the realities of the country you are discussing may lead to beliefs like "only checkists and oligarchs from Russia could afford visit to Europe". Though it's your right to do so, of course. Providing healthcare, housing, infrastructure doesn't start at the extreme, i.e. expensive and logistically difficult cancer treatment, it starts with simple things like getting rid of a rat infestation. The government is fully aware that this problem persists in many regions, and yet even such a basic (yes basic) thing isn't being solved. And that's not because the people there don't care. You'd hear their complaints every day if you went there and asked them about their living conditions. There are enough independent reports about this that the Russian government has to be aware of this problem, and they're not doing anything.
Big post about household managment in Russia, will put under spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Because it's not the level of the government to take care of rat infestation. If it is, this means complete ineffectivness of regional and municipal authorities. And it's the latter that should take care of it, not the Kremlin. I believe White House in US isn't solving rat issues as well, that should be on the level of the State at most. There are also federal agencies (Rospotrebnadzor (RPN) - Russian Consumer Control, Goszhilinspektsia (GZI) - State Housing Inspection) in place, who control this stuff. As an example - in apartment building where I was head of homeowners association (will shorten it for HOA) my predecessor had a court proceeding due to the fine applied by GZI due to the bad quality of water (though in court it was determined that it was water supply company who was responsible). But still, it took a person to file a proper complaint for us to be inspected, fined and given a demand to resolve the issue. Now for the people complaining - as being the head of HOA in one apartment building and taking part in the activities in the other I can assure you that people like very much to vocally complain about everything, but they do very little to change that, even though the instruments are in their hands. If you want to make living in your apartment better - just do something. If your house is governed by apartment-managing company (the most common issue here) and they don't do shit - file complaints to them, to RPN and GZI, file cases to the court. If it still doesn't help - gather homeowners, get rid of the company and form HOA. If you are living in HOA - attend annual meeting or give letter of attorney to someone to represent you there if you aren't able to attend. And at the meeting discuss matters in civil manner, do not turn the meeting in clownfest. If you have suspitions that head of HOA is stealing money - call extraordinary meeting and demand a audition of house finances... I could go on and on about how many instruments and possibilities are given by the law in Russia to make your living better, if you really do care, but people just like to shout shit. That was in both HOAs where I did work - even if you gather homeowners for a meeting (and that's saying something), they generally turn it into clownfest, which makes reasonable people among them not want to come at all. Here is the example of how ordinary people living in typical concrete khrushchyovka may change their living in a few years (7 in this case) by paying around 25$ a month into their HOA (add to that, of course, the repair of all internal communications, all entrances to the building, establishing the automatic temperature control etc.). ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Jp2ynHT.jpg) That's if the head of HOA actually cares and people living in the house care as well. And no rats there of course.
|
Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 16:25 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 09:08 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 08:39 StasisField wrote:On October 13 2022 08:28 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even. Oh you didn't like that? And is that ok when your countryman writes racist bullshit here? Btw, I'm interested, how a single person can be a "fascist"? Is that not something related to social order, or "fascist" is a curse word you learnt from some propaganda video on Youtube? 1. Kwark isn't from the US, he merely lives here. 2. Kwark wasn't being racist. Reading comprehension is hard though, I know. 3. Even if he was, Sermokala didn't put their stamp of approval on what Kwark said so don't be all uppity when they call you out like they're being a hypocrite or contradicting themself. 4. People who follow fascist ideology are fascists, just as people who follow communist ideology are communists. Not a difficult concept to grasp. 1. -ok, didn't know. 2. It was. Claims like "russians have no concept of truth" or "Stalin broke the culture" (meaning it is some kind of a persistent effect) are 146% racist gems worthy of Hitler himself. 3. in my offensive post I wrote that this is not how I truly think of Americans, just an example of a racist bs. Its interesting though, how you and Sermokala reacted. Did you even read the post till the end? 4. To follow a fascist ideology you have at least to be a nazi and to follow a rule of a dictator. At least the first quality is not met in the case of Russian society. And seeing how eager you are at blaming Russians in all sins, you're much closer to that title. It is very easy to argue that Putin is in fact a dictator, for example as there is no way to remove him in free and fair elections. But then again, Russia has never had a leader who was removed by an election afaik, so some version of dictatorship is the norm. Fascism is a very problematic word to define, but "at least to be a nazi" is a wrong place to start. The very word as a political term originated in Italy, not in Germany. Both "fascism" and "nazism" get thrown around at anything people don't like or fear. Russians eagerly uses "nazism" that way, not the least about Ukrainians. If you are not far right yourself, "fascism" tends to include any "authoritarian, anti democratic, right-wing movement", which can certainly include the January 6th congress storming. As such, it will look different in each country and each era, If you don't want to be called a fascist, you can choose a narrower definition and to point how you differ from the original fascists, Mussolini and Franco.
-yes, one definition (in lines with U.Eco) is vague and could be applied too indiscriminately; the other definition ("dictatorship of nationalists") is due to a Soviet writer Boris Strugatskiy - and he argues that this is the necessary and sufficient condition to have all the other usual features of fascism.
So, by nazi I meant not the orginal NSDAP ones, but all sorts of nationalists; sorry if that was misleading
|
On October 13 2022 10:05 a_ch wrote:
But instead of pushing both of the sides to sign a treaty, I see as how Western media manipulate the public opinion and
stir the hatred even more - sometimes resorting to blatant lies of the level I thought impossible. So I blame both our government - for starting this bullshit, the US goverment - for provoking the conflict, and pushing to continue the war, but most of all - the Ukrainian government, who in this situation worked as true traitors to their people.
Oh, isn't that nice? Russia starts a war. Sees that can't win it... Then goes:
"Let's be friends boys. Why can't we all live in piece? Why so war hungry?"
At this point the only treaty possible is the complete capitulation of Russia, combined with huge reparations. And even with that, we all know that a document signed by the Russian government is not worth even the paper it's written on. So, similar to Germany, Russia should be forced to reduce it's ability to start another conquest war in the near future.
Maybe then, the Russian people will realize, that letting a fascist nutjob with very limited understanding of history rule their country for 20+ years, is not a good idea. Won't hold my breath for it, though.
|
On October 13 2022 10:05 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 09:23 StorrZerg wrote:
1. Pretty funny how you assumed though.
2. Those claims are not racist. He has been presenting quite a bit of information to which you continue to not respond to discussion and just lash out.
4. One can be a fascist and not be a nazi.
You do understand why there is so much negative talk regarding Russian politics right? You do understand what the Russian government is doing is wrong right?
2. Any negative claim on a nation as a whole is racism by definition (which btw is itself a stupid thing in this case, as Russia is quite diverse and multinational).
Not only is that not what Kwark was doing, it is also just untrue.
|
Any negative claim on a nation as a whole is racism by definition
Just to clear that up: it's not a definition of racism. It would be categorized as hate speech and a form of xenhophobia but more specific. In this case being derogatory towards Russia would be rusophobia I think.
|
On October 13 2022 17:40 Manit0u wrote:Just to clear that up: it's not a definition of racism. It would be categorized as hate speech and a form of xenhophobia but more specific. In this case being derogatory towards Russia would be rusophobia I think.
It might be, if it weren't a well documented and objectively true phenomenon that is being described.
|
On October 13 2022 16:50 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 16:25 Slydie wrote:On October 13 2022 09:08 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 08:39 StasisField wrote:On October 13 2022 08:28 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 07:56 Sermokala wrote:On October 13 2022 07:11 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 06:24 KwarK wrote:On October 13 2022 06:21 a_ch wrote:On October 13 2022 05:38 KwarK wrote:
Your elections are rigged and you live in a fascist dictatorship (seriously, check the criteria) but when this is pointed out to you you happily concede the point while brushing aside the entire idea of fairness. You don’t even know you’re doing it, you’ve been trained to do this, your parents were trained to do it, it’s part of the way Russians think. The contradictions no longer even register in Russian brains because the idea of actual truth is missing. you just won't be able to ask me something new on this topic, especially if you simply bring some propaganda stamps (like, do you even know the definition of fascism besides very vague 14 points of U. Eco? Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). Stalin broke y’all. I point out that you literally cannot help yourselves from doing “we’re not and if we are everyone else is” and that you don’t even know that you’re doing it. You instantly respond with do you even know the definition of fascism… Try to apply it to modern Ukraine - you'd be surprised). You don’t even notice you’re doing it in your angry response to me. That’s how badly he broke you. You literally couldn’t express a denial of it without doing it. This game could be played by the both sides. Like, as many of Americans are descendants of European exiled criminals or slaves, don't you think the genetics have to be inferior to the law-abiding guys who've stayed home in Europe? (Sorry to the rest of the US guys, thats not how I think of you, just an example of stupid racist bullshit, same as this guy is consistently bringing here) Bro when you're trying to deny or deflect that you're not the facists Don't start making random unsupported suppositions about somehow the United states has Inferior genetics and thats why they went across the ocean. They went to America because America has insane geography and was offering free land to whoever wanted some. My family was paid by Germany to go to America even. Oh you didn't like that? And is that ok when your countryman writes racist bullshit here? Btw, I'm interested, how a single person can be a "fascist"? Is that not something related to social order, or "fascist" is a curse word you learnt from some propaganda video on Youtube? 1. Kwark isn't from the US, he merely lives here. 2. Kwark wasn't being racist. Reading comprehension is hard though, I know. 3. Even if he was, Sermokala didn't put their stamp of approval on what Kwark said so don't be all uppity when they call you out like they're being a hypocrite or contradicting themself. 4. People who follow fascist ideology are fascists, just as people who follow communist ideology are communists. Not a difficult concept to grasp. 1. -ok, didn't know. 2. It was. Claims like "russians have no concept of truth" or "Stalin broke the culture" (meaning it is some kind of a persistent effect) are 146% racist gems worthy of Hitler himself. 3. in my offensive post I wrote that this is not how I truly think of Americans, just an example of a racist bs. Its interesting though, how you and Sermokala reacted. Did you even read the post till the end? 4. To follow a fascist ideology you have at least to be a nazi and to follow a rule of a dictator. At least the first quality is not met in the case of Russian society. And seeing how eager you are at blaming Russians in all sins, you're much closer to that title. It is very easy to argue that Putin is in fact a dictator, for example as there is no way to remove him in free and fair elections. But then again, Russia has never had a leader who was removed by an election afaik, so some version of dictatorship is the norm. Fascism is a very problematic word to define, but "at least to be a nazi" is a wrong place to start. The very word as a political term originated in Italy, not in Germany. Both "fascism" and "nazism" get thrown around at anything people don't like or fear. Russians eagerly uses "nazism" that way, not the least about Ukrainians. If you are not far right yourself, "fascism" tends to include any "authoritarian, anti democratic, right-wing movement", which can certainly include the January 6th congress storming. As such, it will look different in each country and each era, If you don't want to be called a fascist, you can choose a narrower definition and to point how you differ from the original fascists, Mussolini and Franco. -yes, one definition (in lines with U.Eco) is vague and could be applied too indiscriminately; the other definition ("dictatorship of nationalists") is due to a Soviet writer Boris Strugatskiy - and he argues that this is the necessary and sufficient condition to have all the other usual features of fascism. So, by nazi I meant not the orginal NSDAP ones, but all sorts of nationalists; sorry if that was misleading
Use the word nationalist instead of nazi then, those two are not the same.
And it sounds to me as if current Russia fits that definition.
It is a dictatorship, since Putin is in power, and there is no way to remove Putin from power.
And it is definitively nationalist.
|
On October 13 2022 10:05 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 09:23 StorrZerg wrote:
1. Pretty funny how you assumed though.
2. Those claims are not racist. He has been presenting quite a bit of information to which you continue to not respond to discussion and just lash out.
4. One can be a fascist and not be a nazi.
You do understand why there is so much negative talk regarding Russian politics right? You do understand what the Russian government is doing is wrong right?
1. Yep, my bad. Stereotypes live in all of us perhaps 2. Any negative claim on a nation as a whole is racism by definition (which btw is itself a stupid thing in this case, as Russia is quite diverse and multinational). 4. I disagree. The most clear and lucid definition of fascism that I saw was "the dictatorship of nationalists". All of the other features are just consequences. In this definition a fascist person is nonsence, or maybe some wannabe imitator of historical personalities - which is definetely not what was meant here. On the last one - I'm a consistent anti-war person. I've signed several petitions against the war right after the start, and participated in the protests. Today the same, I'm for stopping the war ASAP. But instead of pushing both of the sides to sign a treaty, I see as how Western media manipulate the public opinion and stir the hatred even more - sometimes resorting to blatant lies of the level I thought impossible. So I blame both our government - for starting this bullshit, the US goverment - for provoking the conflict, and pushing to continue the war, but most of all - the Ukrainian government, who in this situation worked as true traitors to their people.
You want the war to stop asap. How does that happen in your eyes?
1. Great we agree russia started the war.
2. How did usa provoke conflict?
3. How did the ukrainian government work as traitors to their people in this situation? To me it seems they are being rallied to be true patriots to defend their homeland from an invasion.
|
Russian Federation240 Posts
On October 13 2022 17:46 Mikau313 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 17:40 Manit0u wrote:
Any negative claim on a nation as a whole is racism by definition
Just to clear that up: it's not a definition of racism. It would be categorized as hate speech and a form of xenhophobia but more specific. In this case being derogatory towards Russia would be rusophobia I think. It might be, if it weren't a well documented and objectively true phenomenon that is being described.
Ok, tell what country you're from - and I'll play a role of KwarK for you by accompanying my posts by random stupid stereotypical statements about it - so you'd know a little better what racism is and what is not
|
On October 13 2022 12:14 Salazarz wrote:Euromaidan was also illegal under Ukrainian law. But since it's generally accepted that most of Ukrainians were okay with it, nobody is arguing about the 'legitimacy' of the outcome. Yet in Crimea, where by all indicators most of people are okay with the results of the referendum, it's 'illegitimate' because it wasn't legal under Ukrainian law, and screw the right to self-determination and all that? You conveniently ignoring the invasion by 'Totally not Russian soldiers'. That creates a very significant difference in the 2 situations and ruins your poorly constructed comparison.
|
Split the whole country alone ethnic lines. Or have the conflict going on forever.
This is the choice there is.
70-80% Ukraine 20-30% Russia
Now the thing is that all the resources are in the eastern part of Ukraine and the territorial waters. Which would make this a very bad deal for Ukraine.
So we split those resources as well with the same ratio. 70-80% Ukraine. 20%-30% Russia. And we then also agree that exploration of those resources will have to be done in a joint venture between Ukraine and Russia,again with these ratios.
Its wrong,it is bad,but this is the reality. The ethnic Russian population of Ukraine does want to be part of Russia. We can ignore this reality but it wont make this reality go away.
So we either make a deal like this or have the conflict go on forever.
Personally i would rather not have this conflict go on forever. It leads to a pointless and immense suffering where in the end neither side will gain anything.
The 3rd option,which is probably the most likely option.
A ceasefire without any agreement. Not all that beneficial for Ukraine because this would de facto put the resources under Russian control. But they can have hope for a better and more permanent solution years or decades later.
We have to move away from beeing stuck in an ideological position where only the very best outcome is acceptable. We have to move towards a more pragmatic position where we accept certain realitys.
And just to be clear:i do not support Russia. And i do think the situation should return to what is was before the war. But the reality is that this will not happen.
|
United States41470 Posts
On October 13 2022 18:22 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 17:46 Mikau313 wrote:On October 13 2022 17:40 Manit0u wrote:
Any negative claim on a nation as a whole is racism by definition
Just to clear that up: it's not a definition of racism. It would be categorized as hate speech and a form of xenhophobia but more specific. In this case being derogatory towards Russia would be rusophobia I think. It might be, if it weren't a well documented and objectively true phenomenon that is being described. Ok, tell what country you're from - and I'll play a role of KwarK for you by accompanying my posts by random stupid stereotypical statements about it - so you'd know a little better what racism is and what is not
Note how the Russian does not respond to you saying that it is objectively true and instead deflects once more with suggestions that the same could be said of any nation.
|
On October 13 2022 16:45 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2022 14:32 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 06:56 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 06:30 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 06:05 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:59 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 05:47 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 13 2022 04:45 Ardias wrote:
@Magic Powers - how did we come from comparing poverty rates in Russia and Ukraine to the assumption that there is no poor people in Russia? Did you not pay attention? The Russian people are much poorer than people in other countries. It's more than just a huge wealth gap, it's about people having to make a choice between food - not just healthy food, but any food - on the table or the dentist's bill. It's about people having to live with rats biting their feet at night. Such living standards are exceedingly rare in countries like the US, but in Russia you can find it in many places. Dentist bill is free in Russia, though it may not be top-tier quality (had 5 of my teeth fixed that way few years ago, so I know what I'm talking about). Public medicine. If you want top-tier - then you pay the bill. Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit. Though we have enough alcoholics, junkies, or, sadly, elderly and/or mentally disabled people without support who could lead to sanitary fuckup, that's true, as well as a bunch of cases of negligence by responsible authorities, though latter could often be resolved via court or public attention if people actually do try. Though from personal experience I do know that a lot of people here (in Russia, I mean) like to complain and do nothing, not even participate in annual apartment owner meetings where they could actually solve their problems. And no, discussion started from the point that Russian people are much poorer than Ukraininan ones and Putin's war goal was to make Ukrainians as poor as Russians. You were bringing 12,1% poverty rate for Russia and 2,5% for Ukraine, to which I pointed out that you take percentages from differen measurement points, like comparing feets to meters. You then simply started to stay that "Russians are very poor", abandoning the Ukraine point completely. But to answer your latest big post - yes, there are quite a lot of Russian that are poor. Yet there are public stuff to ease it up (inheritance of damn communists with their free public education and medicine). No, the statistics doesn't give clear persperctive, because you seemed to entirely miss what I told about gray economy in Russia, and how it applies to Ukraine (probably even more, since they have less strict tax control). On October 13 2022 05:15 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
He asked how many legitimate elections in Russia had such high support for Putin. You gave him examples of blatantly rigged elections. Where did he said anything about "legitimate" elections? His quote, I don't see the word "legitimate" anywhere: "How many of the Russian held votes in the last 10 years have been over 90%? From these referendums to anything directly involving Putin and his power?" "Rats are sometimes a problem, but it could be resolved if people living there care even a bit." Ok, please tell me why I should argue with someone who is that ignorant of how poverty works? "Just care a bit"? Please give me the slightest incentive to take you seriously. Because I actually live here, because my grandmother and aunt live on their pensions in the wooden Soviet barrack in suburbs or Arkhangelsk, because my wife comes from remote village 400km from the city in the middle of nowhere, and my father-in-law and mother-in-law still live there. So I can clearly see when people talk about actual poverty issues, especially in Russia, and when they clearly don't know what they are talking about, to put it very mildly. Not knowing that dental care is free and available to everyone in Russia says a lot about your actual knowledge. You may google what "Obligatory Medical Insurance" in Russia is, for the start. I mentioned dental care when I illustrated the financial dilemma people face, not because specifically dental care is what Russian people can't afford. And no, health care is not "free", people have to pay for it, including in Russia. If people need medicine that isn't fully covered, they have to pay for it from their own pockets. This is the same thing they do in other countries with "basic healthcare"; but the standard is not the same everywhere, and it's not provided to all people equally. If you live in bumfuck nowhere in Russia, you strictly cannot get the same treatment options, and this is how the Russian leaders make sure that not too much money is spent from their own pockets to the poorest - they simply neglect them in more indirect ways, like not building their infrastructure or not making sure they get provided the same options that are promised to those living in more affluent areas. Do you understand this? Well, now we get to more reasonable discussion. It's kinda offtopic, so I'll move my reply under spoiler. + Show Spoiler +About the medicine - yes, you are correct, generally you do pay for it from your pocket. If it's a recommendation, and not a direct prescription (you won't buy some stuff without it, same as in other countries I believe), you can often get cheaper variants, because doctors often write a bit more effective and safe imported option, but 5x-10x times more expensive, and pharmacies are much more eager to sell expensive medicine, rather than cheap Russian generics with the same effect.
Of course there are cases with rare illness where you need particular operation or medication, and yes, for the poorer part of people if often becomes unaffordable, here I agree. But from most common diseases you are able to get a treatment, even if you are broke as a joke.
Now to infrastructure - somebody couple of pages ago said "Russia is so big, why it isn't prosperous". Well, partially it's the reason. I see you live in Austria. It's 84k km2 in size with 9 million population. And it's 7 times less in size while having 8 times larger population than only my region of Russia. How do you propose providing equal medical care to every person here, especially in remote rural areas?
To give you an example - we have a cancer treatment center here. It's large, has a lot of nice stuff, they effectively treat a lot of patients (know that because my mother is one of them) - but you can't build center like this in every sub-region of our oblast. So yeah, people simply have to drive 400-500 km to treat their cancer. And such issue is unresolvable if the population is dispersed through the country.
On the matter I would ask people from US how healthcare for stuff like cancer works in remote small cities in Montana, Wyoming or Arizona, for example. On October 13 2022 06:30 Simberto wrote:On October 13 2022 06:27 Ardias wrote:On October 13 2022 06:14 maybenexttime wrote:
@Ardias
Fair enough. As far as I can tell, the context was legitimacy of the elections - how believable such high support is. I'm pretty sure he was interested in legitimate elections but I could be wrong. Because what's the point of using blatantly rigged elections to show that such results can happen in fair elections. My guess is to understand the extent of rigging in elections and if there could be correlation between the result of election and actual public opinion. I mean, if every election could be rigged to show 80+% turnout and 90+% result, why would United Russia be on the brink of 50% every parliamentary election, with all the rigging and administrative resource on their side? Or our previous governor elections show only 20% of the turnout and a bit above 50% for the winner (he was often called "Governor-10-percent" here because of that)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governors_of_Arkhangelsk_OblastDifferent public polls seemed to also support the picture that Putin himself is much more popular than United Russia (probably that's why he left somewhere in mid-10s, since his party was giving him negative perception). And my way of dealing with this would be to not try to gain any legitimate information from a rigged election, except maybe information about the rigging. A rigged election should be treated as if no election has happened. Anything else gives it legitimacy it does not deserve. Not trying to understand the realities of the country you are discussing may lead to beliefs like "only checkists and oligarchs from Russia could afford visit to Europe". Though it's your right to do so, of course. Providing healthcare, housing, infrastructure doesn't start at the extreme, i.e. expensive and logistically difficult cancer treatment, it starts with simple things like getting rid of a rat infestation. The government is fully aware that this problem persists in many regions, and yet even such a basic (yes basic) thing isn't being solved. And that's not because the people there don't care. You'd hear their complaints every day if you went there and asked them about their living conditions. There are enough independent reports about this that the Russian government has to be aware of this problem, and they're not doing anything. Big post about household managment in Russia, will put under spoiler [spoiler]Because it's not the level of the government to take care of rat infestation. If it is, this means complete ineffectivness of regional and municipal authorities. And it's the latter that should take care of it, not the Kremlin.
That changes absolutely nothing. You're switching the topic from poverty being a big problem in Russia to fault seeking for poverty. I don't care which governing body is at fault, the fact is that it's a big and widespread problem, and a much bigger one than in most other countries.
The scale of this problem is very Russia-specific, and even more specifically it's about corruption. You're looking for blame elsewhere, in particular poor people themselves, which is the completely wrong approach. People who live in poverty do not get out of poverty by themselves, that's simply not how it works. Exceptions don't count. The government has to lay the foundation and help them, but that's not possible when corruption is widespread because the funds won't be delivered where they're supposed to go, or the people don't even get a say in the first place, and bribery for public service gets shoved under the rug. You're looking at the situation like it's a well oiled machine, which is not the case at all. People in Russia are getting shafted by bureaucrats all over the place, and you won't find any numbers on how that affects the Russian people because they don't exist on paper.
Ukrainians want to stay away from Russia because the corruption would spread over to them and make things even worse than they already are. It's going from bad straight to hell.
transparency.org reveals the following:
In Russia, 27% of public service users paid a bribe in the previous 12 months
Compared to Ukraine, 23% of public service users paid a bribe in the previous 12 months
This was from 2016.
Also on transparency.org, Russia is ranked as more corrupt than Ukraine. The reason why this is such an important piece of information is that Russia is literally the worst ranked country in all of Europe, Ukraine coming in second most corrupt place. Russia is so bad that even Ukraine outperforms them, and that is even though Ukraine has been constantly undermined by Russia and at least a portion of the corruption in Ukraine most likely stems directly from Russia.
Edit: I forgot to post this relevant piece of information.
Crimea after the sham referendum became a far more corrupt place already within one year. Al Jazeera (which is mostly objective when reporting on foreign matters) reported on this in this piece:
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2015/9/2/corruption-eats-russia-annexed-crimea-from-within
It's interesting how they even phrase is the same way I did above:
"For many here, the March 2014 annexation, which was hailed by Russian media as Crimea’s return to “motherland”, was like trading a bad situation for a worse one." Referring to corruption and other such things.
"Most of the officials he addressed were former Ukrainian public servants who saved their seats by pledging allegiance to the Kremlin. Many of these officials were part of shady schemes that emerged under ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovich, analysts and officials say."
Russia-aligned Ukrainians in Crimea exploiting fellow Ukrainians. That's what's been going on.
This is a trend. Russia turns the things it touches to shit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
