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On April 02 2019 00:02 Jimmon wrote:
Trap Wins over Classic 4-1 in Finals for third place.
Fixed for you.
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Congrats Trap!!!! Being part of the few SC2 players that ever reach the ro4 of a GSL is a great honor!!
Okay Maru, this is just another day in the office.
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On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan  Thank you very much  Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise.
Well, Serral definitely is not GOAT atm so you can if you want, without any doubt.
You missed Marinelord's second place at Dreamhack Open and Byun's victory at World Cyber Arena(2016), as well as Innovation's victory at GSL Code S S3(2017); this brings the total up to 26.
If anything, Terran's representation in finals was especially low in 2018 while substantially on par with those of the other races in 2015-2017.
What's truly interesting is that despite Terran, in LoTV, has been the least represented race in finals, most of these participations converted into victories so that they lifted 18 premier trophies(a quite impressive 18-8 record overall,even more impressive considering the 7-3 in "preparation" tournaments), just as many as Protoss, whose record in finals is instead negative, did in the same period.
I would not call Maru the only competitive Terran player, but the fact he shines so brightly at preparation tournaments actually warps Terran's performance as a whole in this kind of tourneys as he alone won four out of seven.
The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter.
What I was saying, by the way, was simply addressing the claim Maru could become the GOAT with his fourth consecutive Code S title; he most definitely carried Terran race alone in 2018 and seven Premier titles are indeed noteworthy, even if not enough. Along with the numbers, he currently lacks the international successes a true GOAT should have in my opinion.
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France12752 Posts
The bad performance at IEM is not contrasted by the WESG victory because it’s a tournament with only a handful of Koreans and Serral. Most good foreigners also eliminated each other in group A.
That’s really not comparable to the IEM disaster.
As for the international success, KR aren’t allowed to compete in WCS so there isn’t that many international tournaments to play in.
He has been 1st, 2nd and 3rd at WESG (best WESG record I’d say?), did decently in IEMs overall, and before his GSL runs he was an OSL winner as well as a pro league beast.
A fourth GSL win in a row would have him equal in GSL wins as other GOAT candidates except he would have done it in a row which is incredible, no matter how you put it, especially since it’s another year after the big balance patch post blizzcon.
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According to my criteria, Maru isn't even close to GOAT.
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On April 01 2019 23:37 Charoisaur wrote:
The only competitive terran atm has problems in weekenders and people are spinning it into terran as a race being somehow magically weaker in "weekenders". (Btw blizzcon allows almost as much preparation as GSL.)
The other terrans are performing badly in weekenders as well as in GSL (except for TY's 1 deep run).
Well, no. GSL gives a week for every playoff opponent while Blizzcon gives a week for the entire playoffs being played in 1 weekend. That's a huge difference considering that you have to cut regeneration time in order to make full use of that one day - which are only a few hours, considering the necessity of sleep, eat, travel from/to venue, fan interaction...
For GSL you can come up with and test new builds for each player individually, while Blizzcon mostly only allows for an adaption out of the repertoire already attained in a player's carreer.
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On April 02 2019 02:29 Poopi wrote:
A fourth GSL win in a row would have him equal in GSL wins as other GOAT candidates except he would have done it in a row which is incredible, no matter how you put it, especially since it’s another year after the big balance patch post blizzcon.
He already has three GSL wins, same as Mvp and INno. Their fourth titles were from GSL vs The World which were weekenders, and pretty weak ones at that (only 8 koreans).
If you value SSL and OSL to the same degree then Maru has five titles ahead of INno's four and Mvp's three.
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Czech Republic12127 Posts
On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. Well, Serral definitely is not GOAT atm so you can if you want, without any doubt. You missed Marinelord's second place at Dreamhack Open and Byun's victory at World Cyber Arena(2016), as well as Innovation's victory at GSL Code S S3(2017); this brings the total up to 26. If anything, Terran's representation in finals was especially low in 2018 while substantially on par with those of the other races in 2015-2017. What's truly interesting is that despite Terran, in LoTV, has been the least represented race in finals, most of these participations converted into victories so that they lifted 18 premier trophies(a quite impressive 18-8 record overall,even more impressive considering the 7-3 in "preparation" tournaments), just as many as Protoss, whose record in finals is instead negative, did in the same period. I would not call Maru the only competitive Terran player, but the fact he shines so brightly at preparation tournaments actually warps Terran's performance as a whole in this kind of tourneys as he alone won four out of seven. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. What I was saying, by the way, was simply addressing the claim Maru could become the GOAT with his fourth consecutive Code S title; he most definitely carried Terran race alone in 2018 and seven Premier titles are indeed noteworthy, even if not enough. Along with the numbers, he currently lacks the international successes a true GOAT should have in my opinion.
I'm not claiming him, but I wouldn't claim it on premiere tourneys wins, that would be Taeja who never won GSL even when it was in Summer
Anyway, Maru shouldn't be GOAT simply on the premise he seems to not care about some tournaments, even more than in GSL (and he plays like that )
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On April 02 2019 02:41 Durnuu wrote:
According to my criteria, Maru isn't even close to GOAT.
Then your criteria doesn't hit the mark =)
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On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter.
This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance".
The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this.
You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon.
Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL.
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France12752 Posts
On April 02 2019 06:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance". The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this. You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon. Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL.
That's the point actually. They are weaker, hence why they do worse at weekenders, but given preparation in starcraft you can even the odds with builds that can last like only one series or something (think Gumiho vs Dark series in 2018), so it'll be more even in GSL. Especially since Maru is the best GSL player of LotV, he has mastered this tournament with his clever ro16 picks and good bo5/bo7 preparations.
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On April 02 2019 06:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance". The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this. You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon. Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL.
It's not that terran has fundamentally changed. It's that the game has fundamentally changed. LOTV completely changed this game, especially the economy now favors zerg and protoss.
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If I was looking to describe changes in the game over time, I would focus less on patches and more on the average and median rush distances in tournament map pools over time.
Though I suppose that doesn’t shed any light on the “weekender theory” since weekenders use the same mapmpools as long events.
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On April 02 2019 06:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance". The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this. You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon. Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL.
Laugh if you feel like doing it, then; maybe you are right about 2018 when Maru's outstanding performance made out for the lack of results of Terran(he was still capable of winning double the Premier titles of the supposedly very strong Protoss race).
Coming to 2019, Inno's victory at WESG was not granted just because a Terran won the previous two editions; IEM was so incredibly bad it should probably be disregarded as an accident, I don't see Terran at 40% win rate anywhere.
Not considering Maru's usual great run in GSL, Heromarine placing at least third in WCS already is the best placement a foreigner Terran has had in the tournament; I called those FINE performances, I never wrote nor suggested they were STRONG.
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On April 02 2019 07:12 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2019 06:11 Charoisaur wrote:On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance". The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this. You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon. Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL. Coming to 2019, Inno's victory at WESG was not granted just because a Terran won the previous two editions
Nowhere did I say that - his victory doesn't say much because of the player field. He had to win a single series against a decent non-terran to win the tournament. In no way does that balance out IEM.
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On April 02 2019 07:30 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2019 07:12 Xain0n wrote:On April 02 2019 06:11 Charoisaur wrote:On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance". The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this. You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon. Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL. Coming to 2019, Inno's victory at WESG was not granted just because a Terran won the previous two editions Nowhere did I say that - his victory doesn't say much because of the player field. He had to win a single series against a decent non-terran to win the tournament. In no way does that balance out IEM.
Decent, uh? This only says Inno had a quite easy group and one relatively easy road to semifinals; I agree, however, that IEM is harder than WESG and that last one was a disaster for Terran. Still, I find it weird that such a "weak" race in 2019 has had a Premier victory and has a player in the semifinals of both Code S and WCS Winter; that's, again, better than Protoss achieved and it makes me think IEM was just one anomaly. Let's see what happens at Super Tournament, at the moment the overall balance seems fine, with just matchups being a little more polarized than usual in certain matchups.
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On March 31 2019 14:57 mierin wrote:
Maru: P imba! 3-1 lol...especially after no fewer than 5 failed widow mine drops still netted him victory.
dear blindly build 80 probes having 4 gates against Maru lol, deserve to lose whole series for that alone.
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On March 31 2019 12:05 argonautdice wrote:
SKT vs JinAir
maybe Slayers vs Prime in the final
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On April 02 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2019 07:30 Charoisaur wrote:On April 02 2019 07:12 Xain0n wrote:On April 02 2019 06:11 Charoisaur wrote:On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance". The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this. You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon. Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL. Coming to 2019, Inno's victory at WESG was not granted just because a Terran won the previous two editions Nowhere did I say that - his victory doesn't say much because of the player field. He had to win a single series against a decent non-terran to win the tournament. In no way does that balance out IEM. Decent, uh? This only says Inno had a quite easy group and one relatively easy road to semifinals; I agree, however, that IEM is harder than WESG and that last one was a disaster for Terran. Still, I find it weird that such a "weak" race in 2019 has had a Premier victory and has a player in the semifinals of both Code S and WCS Winter; that's, again, better than Protoss achieved and it makes me think IEM was just one anomaly. Let's see what happens at Super Tournament, at the moment the overall balance seems fine, with just matchups being a little more polarized than usual in certain matchups.
perhap you should wonder why cant protoss win anything albeit they got so many advantages in this matchup instead
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Czech Republic12127 Posts
On April 02 2019 06:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2019 02:13 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:On April 01 2019 22:24 Xain0n wrote:On April 01 2019 17:31 Poopi wrote:
I want Maru to win a 4th straight GSL across balance patches, he would be so close to being the uncontested GOAT if he manages to pull it off. He would be the most accomplished player in GSL only, a great achievement indeed; still far from being GOAT, let alone uncontested. Maru's level of play can be incredibly high and he seems to be able to express it entirely in a long preparation tournament as Code S is, while failing way too often in shorter competitions; also, it might be he is one of the players who benefit the most from the collective efforts produced by a teamhouse environment. Maru's skill is uncontested but he doesn't really seem he is especially capable of releasing it at his will(and by himself?); moreover, would he win this Code S, it would be his seventh Premier tournament after being around since the very beginning of Sc2. Not the numbers a GOAT should have, in my opinion. Nice, I will save this argument and use it aganist a random Serral fan Thank you very much Aaanyway, let's think about it for a while, so far in LotV we had 57 premier tournaments. Out of those we had 8 GSL Code S and 6 Starleagues. I didn't check if both Starleagues were preparational, let's say for the sake of fun they were. The rest were weekenders. That leaves us with 43 non-preparational tourneys. Out of those the following Terrans made an Impact + Show Spoiler +HSC XII MMA, 2016 WCS Winter - Polt, IEM XI - uThermal & Innovation(2 events), Blizzcon ByuN + 2016 WCS Summer Polt(2nd place) AND ByuN(Code S S2 winner) and TY(Code S1 2nd) for 2016 & 2015(well, there were 2 tourneys in 2015 in LotV) 6 + 2 2017: WESG TY/Maru, IEM XI WC TY(yeah, looks awesome ) GSL vs the World - Inno/TY AND SSL - Innovation, GSL S1 aLive(2nd), GSL S2 GumiHo, SSL 2 Bunny(2nd) 5 + 4 Terrans 2018: WESG - Maru and 3 times Maru and TY from Code S 1 + 4 Terrans 2019 WESG Innovation 1 Terran so far Summary score is 13 Terrans icons from non-preparational tournaments and 10 from "preparational" So, what can we talk about you ask? We have 57 premier tournaments, out of those premier tournaments we keep 1st and 2nd easily readable. From 114 Terran icons we have ASTONISHING 23 icons!!! Think about that, let that sink. Out of possible 28 preparational tournaments we have 10 Terran and out of those 6 wins. Maybe, just maybe, Terran is very badly designed race for weekenders in LotV for w/e reason. I have no clue what changed since Taeja/Polt/MMA/Bomber times but in LotV Terrans don't know how to win weekenders, see the numbers. We have possible 114 places for Terrans and they took 23. Feel free to correct me. And it's not about Terrans being bad suddenly. I have no idea what's the problem, but if you want to take the number of premier wins let's talk about the fact that the whole LotV is very anti-terran number-wise. The race is not looking weak in 2019, the atrocious IEM is contrasted by WESG's victory while Maru and Heromarine are doing fine in the final stages of Code S and WCS Winter. This has to be a joke. WESG was always going to have strong terran results with how the player field looked like and I wouldn't exactly call 1 terran being in the ro8 of WCS Winter "strong terran performance". The reason why I'm calling bogus on this whole "terran is worse in weekend tournaments" narrative is because it was not always like this. You don't even have to go back to the MMA/TaeJa/Polt/Bomber days - pre 2018 terran was still doing fine at weekenders with Inno winning IEM Gyeonggi and GSL vs the world, TY winning WESG and Katowice and ByuN winning Blizzcon. Unless you can explain to me how terran has fundamentally changed from 2017 to 2018 to make them suddenly weak in weekend tournaments only I think it's much more likely that Terran is just weaker than the other races and Maru just goes god-mode in the GSL.
Of course it wasn't, but that was before LotV. Something in LotV changed this. Tell me the reason why Terrans do well in GSL and they are weak in weekenders. What's the reasoning? Why? Maru don't care? Innovation didn't care? TY didn't care? ByuN didn't care? GumiHo didn't care? Except TY these are all players who won Code S in LotV IIRC. And what more - Maru dominated a year in Code S. At the same time these players didn't dominate weekenders. And I don't need them to dominate per se, but at least run decently.
That's why I provided numbers and I agree with you, the further we go into LotV the worse for Terrans in weekenders. At the start it didn't look so bad because ... I can't say. But how is it possible that we have Maru/TY finals and none of these can do decently in Souper Tournament II? We can blame team strategy on Maru v sOs, but what about TY v Creator?
I mean that only half seriously, but the trend was set
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EPT
