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People probably have forgotten my comment so i'll say it again.
I've clearly heard prize money is not important from KenZy. So, I'll assume people want titles. Try hosting a tournament like 2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion, 2017 Fall Non-KR BW Champion, and continue. I'm not telling KenZy to organize everything and host this event thing. SchAmToo is always there to give all of resources and advice that he can help with just like earlier comment in this thread.
IF everyone is willing to work together, then there might be a great change and for the future.
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I don't think the scene can grow in it's current state. Severe lack of players and weird mindsets. Someone came along and hosted tournaments and because there's one really good player people don't want to compete. Seems foreign bw competition is in a very unhealthy state. Scan adds prestige to the tournament and what is so bad about getting second place? If you really want to get first place you have to try really hard unfortunately. The scene being as small as it is and someone spending their time and money on it and players don't want someone to compete because they can't beat him the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that it's about money and/or not wanting to lose(to grow the scene??).
If you guys don't want to compete because you can't win well there may as well not be a competition.
Is there really going to be a difference of any significance if scan doesn't compete? If the current top guys don't have the motivation to compete because scan is there it just speaks to how they don't care about improving or uhhh sorry it's boring.
The obvious solution is to have different skill divisions but the player base doesn't really warrant such a thing so it seems very uncool to just leave one guy out...
I think there's one opportunity to grow the scene and that's with SC:R and I don't think it will be about tournaments having or not having Koreans but about educating new players with beginner guides because bw is pretty broken right off the bat.
+ Show Spoiler +If SC:R brings back a decent player base then the theory can be tested if it's possible to beat scan if you live outside of Korea
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No.
User was warned for this post
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I think it's only fair to ban Koreans since they have an inherent genetic advantage. They have evolved over billions of years solely to destroy other races at video games and to be winnar of virtual king of the hill. Other countries won't stand a chance if we let them come and take our championships. + Show Spoiler +Either that or there's something in their work ethic/culture/infrastructure/whatever we're not seeing or adopting idk
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If you guys run a card shop or been to yugioh tournaments at shops, trust me you'd understand more that the top contenders discourage all the other casuals, if the same top contender wins all the time, which translates into less money pool and attendance overall. So if the organizer's goal is to promote the broodwar community outside of korea, then they have every right to ban whoever they want if they think they are too good for the competition, korean or not. It is how they want to organize the tournament and how they want to market it, if people get offended, let them get offended, if it backfires and support for it goes opposite direction, then they will respond in a way that makes sense. The free market will flow naturally.
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On June 14 2017 13:33 Moopower wrote: If you guys run a card shop or been to yugioh tournaments at shops, trust me you'd understand more that the top contenders discourage all the other casuals, if the same top contender wins all the time, which translates into less money pool and attendance overall. So if the organizer's goal is to promote the broodwar community outside of korea, then they have every right to ban whoever they want if they think they are too good for the competition, korean or not. It is how they want to organize the tournament and how they want to market it, if people get offended, let them get offended, if it backfires and support for it goes opposite direction, then they will respond in a way that makes sense. The free market will flow naturally.
I really want to get into market failures as a result of free market conditions but this just isn't the place for it
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can we ban all the A- and higher players next? i dont feel like there's enough C and B lvl players competing , give us a chance too ;(
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In all honesty, Koreans might have a very small genetic advantage (we're talking maybe 1-2% of the reason that Koreans dominate) - it's not out of the question that the specific brain mechanisms necessary to succeed at high-level video games have for whatever reason been favored in Korean culture for generations - however, the advantages are overwhelmingly the result of culture. I do have doubts to the effect of culture on the mechanical mastery that Koreans seem to show across games, but far be it from me to assert some inherent quality leading to this dominance.
I don't mind having foreigner-only tournaments. I love basketball but the Olympics are boring to me because I know the USA will crush every team up until the finals. Same with the old WCG tournaments, where it was essentially uninteresting until the Koreans inevitably played each other.
I haven't seen a compelling argument in this thread for letting Koreans play against people who haven't been steeped in BW culture for the last two decades.
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Yes, ban them from tournaments. I don't think I'm alone when I say that it's no fun watching Korean players dominant foreign tournaments. They're just not relatable to the average viewer. People want to root for someone that represents them, a North American in this case. Characters like Idra drew in the most crowds because he was someone they could relate to to an extent. At any rate he wasn't distinctly different looking than them, intolerant as it sounds.
I think one of the biggest factors in the downfall of professional North American Starcraft 2 was introducing the Koreans into the forgein scene. They siphoned all the money out of the community and put it in their own pockets, then flew off on a plane back to Korea. The professional scene ended up starving because they were funding these players on teams that couldn't measure up to the competition, and weren't able to secure any dough. That's the reality of the situation.
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I don't know what is so difficult to understand, the community has been pretty tolerant with Scan regarding his participation to prize money tourney, we aren't against that, I think it comes naturally that with the gap skill he should from time to time not join that would leave more suspense and more fun for everyone, that's about it. The ban topic of course doesn't make sense.
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Russian Federation139 Posts
Let's discuss should they ban Flash from every tournament since every player in a world is underdog to him.
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On June 14 2017 15:09 g0rynich wrote: Let's discuss should they ban Flash from every tournament since every player in a world is underdog to him.
I think Bisu, Jaedong Effort and others are a far better challenge for Flash than we are for Scan or maybe you haven't noticed.
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honestly this thread has opened my eyes on how many silly, oblivious, social justice warriors are are in this community and it makes me so sad I thought we were better than this.
It's so sad that there's such an influx of people coming and trying to make people, who have been in BW this entire time, before this "rebirth" of sc:bw, feel bad about caring about the game. All these oblivious people who are so set in their SJW ways drowning out the voices of people who actually care, have always cared, KNOW how all this ticks, and LOVE the game. All this "don't criticize!" "go learn korean and be as good as koreans!" all this shit that has been around forever, all this bullshit spewed by people over the decades of BW's existence, but ignored because when the community was strong, when live tournaments were a thing, everyone knew that foreigners, even when at their best, when dedicating all their time to BW just cannot compete with Koreans. The sad part is that once all this goes to shit, and current BW hype will die down, all these SJW's will leave the community, yet the dedicated people, who people in this thread just refuse to listen to, will still be here, like they always have.
breaks my heart.
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On June 14 2017 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: This is %100 up to the organizer. They put the sweat, money, and hours into making this event happen. That being said:
Message to players: If you disagree with the way a tournament is being run, then don't participate and politely state your reasons for not participating in the proper forum. Let the organizer be informed of why they have low attendance or viewers in a constructive way and maybe the organizer will change their ways. And if they don't, just show your appreciation for their dedication to the scene and accept that there is a difference of opinions.
Message to Organizers: I think it is very important for Organizers to try hard to understand and become familiar with the players that compete in their events. Teamliquid is very grassroots and everyone enjoys being a part of something great. Keeping an ear to the ground and facilitating good discussion is the way to be taken in by the community. Whether it is the Filthy Tournament thread or Where's moletrap thread, there is a lot of discussion around nonconstructive criticism. Now I know I'm not the biggest personality on the scene, but I get 0% negative/hurtful comments sent to me, but I do have tons of PMs with constructive criticism that I take seriously. And even if I don't agree I let everyone know I'm thankful for their time to care enough to reach out to me. Players are responsible for being really good at the game. Personalities should be responsible for setting a good example. As hard as it is, take the high road, love everyone despite their flaws, and the persistence will lead everyone down a better path.
I was about to write a comment but then I saw this. 100% agree, nothing to add.
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On June 14 2017 15:48 abuse wrote: All this "don't criticize!" "go learn korean and be as good as koreans!" all this shit that has been around forever, all this bullshit spewed by people over the decades of BW's existence, but ignored because when the community was strong, when live tournaments were a thing, everyone knew that foreigners, even when at their best, when dedicating all their time to BW just cannot compete with Koreans.
I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but let's get one thing straight: foreigners who TRULY dedicated their time and focus into becoming proficient at SC:BW _were able_ to compete with Koreans. I suggest you learn the history of this scene before you give yourself the oldie stamp.
From my perspective, the presence of a strong opponent in a tournament should be a motivating factor, not vice-versa. If I were you, I'd try and work on that defeatist attitude, since that's the only thing holding you back.
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Russian Federation139 Posts
On June 14 2017 15:26 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 15:09 g0rynich wrote: Let's discuss should they ban Flash from every tournament since every player in a world is underdog to him. I think Bisu, Jaedong Effort and others are a far better challenge for Flash than we are for Scan or maybe you haven't noticed.
Bonyth same challenging for Scan as JD for Flash
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TLADT24919 Posts
On June 14 2017 15:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 02:49 BisuDagger wrote: This is %100 up to the organizer. They put the sweat, money, and hours into making this event happen. That being said:
Message to players: If you disagree with the way a tournament is being run, then don't participate and politely state your reasons for not participating in the proper forum. Let the organizer be informed of why they have low attendance or viewers in a constructive way and maybe the organizer will change their ways. And if they don't, just show your appreciation for their dedication to the scene and accept that there is a difference of opinions.
Message to Organizers: I think it is very important for Organizers to try hard to understand and become familiar with the players that compete in their events. Teamliquid is very grassroots and everyone enjoys being a part of something great. Keeping an ear to the ground and facilitating good discussion is the way to be taken in by the community. Whether it is the Filthy Tournament thread or Where's moletrap thread, there is a lot of discussion around nonconstructive criticism. Now I know I'm not the biggest personality on the scene, but I get 0% negative/hurtful comments sent to me, but I do have tons of PMs with constructive criticism that I take seriously. And even if I don't agree I let everyone know I'm thankful for their time to care enough to reach out to me. Players are responsible for being really good at the game. Personalities should be responsible for setting a good example. As hard as it is, take the high road, love everyone despite their flaws, and the persistence will lead everyone down a better path. I was about to write a comment but then I saw this. 100% agree, nothing to add. agree. Bisudagger hit the nail on the head and conveyed things perfectly imo.
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Nobody even replied to my awesome suggestion
The thread should've just ended when I said it. You all should've said "Thank you, Nina, you've saved Brood War... again!" but nooooo. Everyone has to get on their soapbox and say "THIS IS WHAT I THINK!!!!!" and ignore me entirely.
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What the fuck? I have never seen so many silly arguments like the one I've read from this abuse dude.
Want to beat others and win competitions? Then train and be better. I've played semi-profesionally more than 10 years ago and it took me 4 years to get to that level. I didn't whine about me not knowing language to understand streams or other skewed arguments mentioned here. I just trained, hardcore, every day 5-6 hours. It's silly and weak to whine about it.
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So let me ask again, since I didn't get an answer last time I asked. Why won't Scan choose to participate every 2nd tournament?
U can see from the discussion we are having, that teamliquid community is divided, some think it's better to have him in tours, some think it's hurting us and it's not entertaining thing to watch.
If Scan decided to participate every 2nd tournament, we wouldn't have this discussion, people would love him for his approach towards us. He would show how he respects us. If I was on Scan's place, I wouldn't sign for every damn tournament, that's for sure.
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