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(dear mod, could you move this post to the strat section. I made a mistake in my excitement)
http://bwreplays.com/6n80m
Words cannot describe how I feel right now. After getting my ass kicked by Tank pushes, even during the times when I was ahead in bases, I finally won a legit PvT that went all the way to arbiters. The game before this, I was also ahead and winning, but I suddenly dced and it just made me miserable. I felt so close to winning and I thought my opponent was at my level. Sometimes after you lose like crazy, you don't think you will win or meet someone that is new like yourself. But I entered another game and just got back in it. I am glad I did.
In previous games, I had no idea what I was doing or how to contain Terran (see here: http://bwreplays.com/9abgi and here: http://bwreplays.com/j6iij). Now, I have a better idea of what happens due to the fact that that f10 helped me out.
Things I learned so far by watching my own replays of losses:
1. Never ever attack that perfectly fortified minefield ridden tank line. NEVER. Always attack when he is on the move or BETTER: DON'T ATTACK THAT BUT ATTACK ELSEWHERE!
2. Delay his third as much as you possibly can. His tank count will rise but early on he will not have enough tanks to hold you if you are ready for him.
3. Zealots are meat shields. You will need a shitton of them. Don't lose all your goons mindlessly.
4. Lastly, arbiters...you really need them to exploit the terran tank immobility.
5. Vultures are pussies, don't be scared of them. Use goon/zeal groups with obs to clear out all expansions.
I finally have a good replay to post that I think is my best play so far. I believe it was not too weird of a game or abnormal in terms of meta. And so, I believe it could be a good chance for me to receive help and add to what I have learned so far. Could you please take a look at the replay (http://bwreplays.com/6n80m) and tell me things I can improve? I wasn't as flustered or panicking in this game. I think I am numb to losing and accept it in good fun. In BW you lose because it's WAR and all is fair in war.
1. Question I would like to ask is: Is it possible to have all your gates in one base? I only had gates in my main, is that okay? I also double queue because it just doesn't seem like a good use of time to check my gates after 1 round of units.
2. Also, regarding arbiter: What do you do with the arbiter during the time where you have one but you are waiting for energy. and do we get the freeze ability for arbiters as well or can we skip that?
3. Terran is on 2 or 3 base and won't push out from the natural yet. I had my goons and zealots denying his third. Do I also keep an army blocking the front? Or can I just have obs there and have the goon group moving around each base and clearing mines? Is it imperative to blockade his front? I felt like that goon group i kept in front of his main was a waste.
4. Is it better to go straight to arbs or get HT? I guess it would depend if he pushes after 2 base vs 3 right? Skip HT if he goes for third, get HT if he is doing a 5 fac push. How many should I make?
Thank you so much! Especially to f10 who taught me a bunch.
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United States1434 Posts
I didn't get to watch the replay but I will later.
1) Double queueing strategically speaking is unsound because it's more efficient to spend that money elsewhere in the meantime to maximize resources. 400 minerals in zealots could easily become a faster 3rd or 4th base. So yes, check your units after each cycle when units complete.
2) The arbiter is good to have with your army. It can force Terran to scan and you can possibly do some zealot charges, luring mines into his army if Terran is not looking. You want to have dragoons protecting your arbiter from EMP in the meantime. The freeze ability is important to have and is invaluable in engagements, especially when Terran has really high numbers in tanks where his surface area damage is maximized. The two (3?) supply of arbiters can make inactive decently 6 supply of units, like 3 tanks.
3) Blocking the 3rd if you can is good if Terran is trying to expand. I don't think an army blocking the front is not necessary, but i'm not entirely sure. I'm not sure if it's efficient to have army both blocking the 3rd and clearing mines. I think Terran will commit his army into expanding or spreading mines/pushing. You don't need to blockade the front at all times, but go there once Terran pushes to limit Terran's push and force him to siege. He needs to be stalled as long as possible.
4) Arbs are generally considered more safer and less risky than HT, but do what feels right for you. If he's going for a 2 base strategy generally you can't combat his push with tier 3 tech with arbiters and/or HT. You need to rely on tier 2 tech of dragoons and zealots primarily if you went for a 3rd/mass gateway style. If you went 2 base and quick tech style then you probably do have to make use of your quick tech, whether that be HT or a recall in Terran's main or stasis using arbs.
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Thank you Ty2. That is a great idea in using arbiters with zealots and poking in spots he might not have detection and get the jump on the enemy. And you are right, I should not double queue so much since I could probably have taken every base on the map if I didn't double queue. But since he was on 2 base and I was delaying his 3rd so much, I thought it would be okay to focus on units only and just stay 1 base ahead.
I watched the replay and what he did was 5+ fac on 2 base before he could get his third. With this information, did I react correctly? well to be honest I never saw it and should have scouted his main but I just assumed he would try to kill me with a mass tank push on 2 base so I just massed units as well. In my low rank games, terrans usually go 5 fac and go all out in hopes to kill me. Every single time.
Usually what happens is they try to take 3rd, I deny. They just mass and push out and kill him. But this time I got arbs quick enough to do some diversion attacks.
4) So you are saying that if he isn't going for his third, I should stay on tech 2 and just beat him with zealots and goons? I don't need to rush to arbs? Like if he shows zero signs of taking third and goes 5+ fac on 2 base, I mass speedlots and do some shuttle drops with goons coming in the 2nd wave? Kill his push and then tech. Got it.
But if he goes for 3rd, I can relax and tech up and it's a bonus if I delay his third. Got it! Thanks!
Oh and another tip that is super good: keep an obs on the path to from the natural to the third. You can see his tank movement and act accordingly. there was one point where he moved ALL his tanks to his third after i denied it for the 2nd time. he got pissed and moved every single tank to the third. if i saw that with my obs, I could have literally walked into his main instead of suiciding into 20 tanks...
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sorry could a mod move this post to the bw strategy forum? thank you.
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United States1434 Posts
The optimal thing to do is not double queue regardless of situation as you want to be playing as optimally as possible the whole time. Try to queue units on your gateways even in tense moments, but the trick is to not get tunnel visioned and be aware of what's going on in the whole map. There may be a few exceptions where prioritizing micro matters much more than the macro, but instances like that are rare. (ex. reaver drop, DT in Terran base killing Vult mines as they're getting laid down)
Commenting on your opponent's play, he went for 5 factories into a command center, which is strange and a sign of inefficient resource management. To have money for a CC on 5 factories shows he was not macroing consistently on his factories, letting some extra money trickle through. It defeats the purpose of a 5 fac which is supposed to be aggressive. He gets less units, slows down the timing of an effective push,and gets a third command center that is coming so late compared to Protoss' 3rd base that they fall economically behind more.
I think you reacted pretty well to the 5 factories by making a few more gateways and then getting your 3rd. However, try not to assume what Terran is going, because in the few instances Terran goes for a fast 3rd base or a more unorthodox strategy like dropships, you can easily lose games. That assumption might be applicable in some cases as I've experienced trends that you speak of, but certainly isn't the safest mindset when playing versus many different individuals. Overall, play how you would versus a player who you're not sure of what they're doing.
As for how Terran makes a third CC but never uses it, masses, and defeats you, I think that is a somewhat large and different subject all on its own. Perhaps you can share a replay of that scenario happening. That probably would have to do with larger overarching problems of lack of macro, micro, but I'm not entirely sure though until I see what's happening.
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I think you hit on all the main points. I would work on taking your 4th and 5th when Terran takes his third (as you were killing his third would have been a great time to do this). You can add gateways at your 5th (one of the unoccupied starting positions).
You don't need 18 observers lol- just 1 per group of 11 goons (shift deselect it when you're attacking into turrets) and spread the rest out. There's no reason not to have your first observer sitting directly on top of his factories keeping an eye on his production (he won't have a complete turret ring by this time unless he's doing some kind of allin) and your 2nd at his choke to see when his army moves out. You can sit an observer over his third as well or even build a pylon there with your initial scout.
Lastly, like Ty2 said, you don't really need to queue until you are maxed and have all of your 5 base+ economy and production/upgrades set up. At one point you had 4 arbiters queued in one stargate and 0 in the other when it you could instead make 1 in each and have spare money to build your 4th and 5th nexus.
Regarding whether you should have an army at his natural when you're attacking the third- all that you really need is an observer. Like Cryoc said, just abuse your mobility, back up from the third, and force him to siege while retreating and continuing to get reinforcements, tech, and an economic advantage.
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I think it's ok to queue units a bit if you want, it would probably help you macro OK until you reach higher level. Like if you're below C queuing 2 units per gate is not going to lose you games I think. But maybe bad habit to take on dunno. I mean you probably don't know how high you want to reach so it's ok not to play the best way from the start^^
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PS Arbiters are 4 supply.
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First of all congrats on your game  it feels awesome to play a good game and win!
I will give you some general tips and I will try to watch your rep tomorrow.
You always want to know what T is doing, if you can't sneak an obs inside the T's base due to turrets at least scout its surroundings, sometimes you can see a CC being built to float to his 3rd, for example. Keep in mind that usually 4/5/6 facts means 2 base push, this means you can take a third as usual, but you will need to add a lot of extra gateways and get a lot of units (usually cutting probes and tech in the process) As a general rule you want to have facts+2 number of gates and +1 exp.
Regarding Arbiters: If T is doing a fast 2 base push, you won't have your tier 3 tech in time to help you defend, even less if you took a 3rd so you need to focus on tier 2 units as stated before, once you deny the push you can tech to Arbiters, since getting a 3rd should be harder for the T now.
In case you are interested in playing faster arbiters you can check Best games to see how he goes every game for fast arbiters, but he delays his 3rd.
And related to their spells, most of the time Freeze is better to get at first than recall (it requires less energy and has a direct impact on a fight). Recall is better on multiples, a single recall against someone who is prepared won't do much to win you the game (turrets+vessels+mines).
As a tip I always start researching freeze when the first Arbiter is queued and then recall/extra energy when it is finished, like this you should be able to adapt to any scenario.
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EPT
